Aircon

[Guest JudgeMental]

I am guessing they haven't moved it *-)

[Passera]

OK

 

After a long trip for us anyway the van was in the workshop a day and a half.

before I start yes judgemental the unit was not moved after long discussions. As I thought such is the dimensions of the van and the layout there is simply no room to bring it forward in front of the heki. There were two other vans on site both with units forward and i pointed this out and looked myself but they were longer and there was more room. The dealer said they were sited up front on customers request.

There you have it - obvious now but in future everyone should take heed thats where they should clearly be if relying on cold air when driving or maybe even when not driving.

We did have a debate whereby I told them that they should have been aware of this v our specific needs and offered us alternatives e.g. cab a/c and maybe a smaller unit for sleeping with no inverter.

there offer was that if it failed to live up to our requirements they would remove the inverter and give us full allowance and more off cab a/c. Due to time limitations we are unable to pursue this right now but could well later.

 

To the problems. The switch found on Sunday after Keiths suggestion was actually doing nothing. The a/c was running off the inverter all the time even with this switch on or off and even when hooked up. In short an installation cock up. They found a short in the wiring, a gasket missing on the unit apart from the mains never getting through. They said it has been thoroughly tested and is working now as it should. Regret temperature is so low that unable to test as we would like but had it running for last hour and still gushing out cold air down to 17C in the van from 23C an hour ago. have not seen this since collection.

 

Also found out from own tests that the auto setting say at 20C actually brings in cold air and should temp go to 19C then cold air switched to heater. The handbook clearly states that auto should not be used when driving but does not say why. Well it is the heater part that uses more power which the inverter cannot cope with. Could be much clearer and even the Dometic Field engineer said he did not knowthis. Side issue but may help someone.

 

They have also wired so that on hook up inverter is automatically cut so no plugs or switching etc - as it appears Judgementals system performs.

 

We had a run today and used a/c via inverter and both remarked we were clearly getting cold air. i checked with thermometer and for the first time it is continuous cold air emerging at around 8C.

 

We have to be pleased with that but of course test will come in higher temperatures.

 

On the subject of the fridge not working it was good news turning to bad. This took them almost a full day and i quote " the fault was traced to dry solder on a PSO circuit board. Cleaned and refit Board and set to a continuous position"

I noticed that the green light was on when 12v was selected even with ignition and engine cut. I guess thats what they meant by continuous position. It remained on throughout 5 hour drive yesterday. Out today switched to 12v for travelling and no light. seems they fixed the fault but not the cause

 

I am no electrician so if this means anything to anyone - Brian?? then any pointers would be helpful.

 

So mutely hopeful about the a/c but right p*** about the fridge.

 

Did first calc on MPG today and it was 31mpg so pleased with that.

 

Anyway to finalise thanks again to all contributors. It has helped immensely and hope i can read some pointers to fridge problem that continues.

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

dont think the 12v light should be on if ignition off *-)

 

[BGD]

Likewise - I don't think the 12 volt operation light should remain on once you turn ignition off.

 

I'm far from being an expert on this, but I think that the whole point of having a 3-way fridge is that you can use it on 12 volt ONLY when driving ('cos if you could operate it in the 12 volt position when ignition is off, you'll flatten your bettery very pronto); on gas if you're parked up without electric hookup; and on 220 volt if on electric hookup.

 

In our MH, the fridge will NOT operate on 12 volt unless ignition is on.

If I turn vehicle ignition off, the 12 volt light on the fridge goes off, ( ie the 12 volt feed from vehicle battery to fridge is cut off by ignition key being switched to off)

This ensures vehicle battery isn't inadvertently drained once parked up.......you simply have to remember to switch the fridge over to 220 volt mains or to gas as required once you've turned the engine off.

 

 

 

Just a long shot: the fitters haven't wired it's 12 volt feed from your leisure battery, rather than from your vehicle ignition have they?

[thebishbus]

Hi. With our Hymer the fridge will only run on 12volt operation, with the engine running, as its the output from the alternator that operates the relay.

Brian B.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

What make/model is the fridge, Frank? 

If Dometic, is it one of the automatic energy selection (AES) fridges, that automatically selects whatever energy supply is available? 

With the engine not running, there should be no 12V supply to the fridge, except for the interior light supply.  If that green light indicates the 12V supply only, as opposed to the fact of the fridge being "on" with whatever supply, there would seem to be a fault.  If the green merely indicates that the fridge is working, you'd need to isolate the gas and ensure no mains present, to test whether the 12V is cutting off as it should when the engine is turned off.  However, this would apply only to Dometic AES fridges.

Manual energy selection (MES) versions are much simpler, in that you set the energy selector to 12V.  If that is the fridge type, and you do this with the engine stopped (whether or not mains and gas are available) and the green light comes on, then something is still at fault.  Oh dear, I do hope not!!  :-)

[Passera]

"Manual energy selection (MES) versions are much simpler, in that you set the energy selector to 12V. If that is the fridge type, and you do this with the engine stopped (whether or not mains and gas are available) and the green light comes on, then something is still at fault. Oh dear, I do hope not!! "

 

Afraid so Brian. It is a Dometic and i have the instruction manual which clearly indicates it is MES. It also warns only to use 12v when engine is running.

 

I think the clue is in the job card the dealers technician completed "set to continuous operation"

 

Late on the visit they said something about needing to replace the electric but they not got one in stock but they would be able to fix the problem anyway. I think this is their idea of fixing it. The day after returning the light went off altogether as I mentioned in my previous post. The next day i woke up and turned the control knob and it came back on again and has stayed that way since. By that I mean everytime I turn it to 12v to test.

 

Clearly this is wrong from all your posts and I have notified the dealer to ensure it will be fixed correctly next time we are back in UK. Meanwhile its on the checklist.

 

[Brian Kirby]

Frank

This is dodgy!  There should not be any 12V power getting to the fridge with the engine stopped, and the ignition turned off.  If you can bear it look back to my earlier post about the split charge relay.  It is that relay that should prevent 12V power getting to the fridge, nothing on the fridge controls themselves can over-ride that.  The relay is, in effect, an on/off switch, that is activated by power from the van's alternator.  Obviously, the alternator only generates power when the engine is running, and that activates the relay to the "on" position to pass 12V power to the fridge, but also to charge the leisure batteries.  When the alternator stops generating, the supply to activate the relay disappears, and it resumes its default "off" state, which disconnects the 12V supply to the fridge, and also separates the starter battery from the leisure batteries.

The three way switch on the fridge should select either mains, gas, or 12V.  If you leave the switch permanently in the 12V position, when the engine is not running the green light should extinguish, but should come back on as soon as the engine is started. 

If this is not happening, the 12V circuit is getting power from somewhere it should not!  Unless that is from the power pack/battery charger on the van when on mains, it is coming from one (or more) of the batteries.  Since the split charge relay should separate the starter battery from the leisure batteries at the same time as it disconnects the 12V supply to the fridge, the availability of 12V power to the fridge with the engine stopped points to that 12V power coming from either the leisure batteries (which should never happen) the starter battery (which the relay should have disconnected), or both (which might be the case if the relay has welded its contacts permanently closed). 

The danger, from your point of view, is that since the fridge will have a 12V load of 8 -10 Amps, if it is drawing current from the batteries with the engine stopped, it will very quickly flatten whichever batteries it is drawing from.  If that happens to be the starter battery you will be left up the creek.  If it happens more than just a few times, it is liable to damage whichever battery is in the firing line.  Batteries do not like being run flat!

I do not recognise the concept of setting the fridge to "continuous operation", so cannot understand what they mean.  All I can think is that the dry joint was somewhere on the thermostat side, and they have bridged the thermostat out of circuit so that the fridge will run continuously.  If that is on the 12V side only it would not be a problem, so long as that relay disconnects the 12V supply when the engine is stopped.  If it applies to all energy sources, it will make the fridge far too cold inside and in cool weather will drop the temperature sufficiently to freeze some of the contents - so I hope you like beer lollies (once you've got the tin off, of course).  :-)

[Keithl]

Brian,

 

I think what Franks comment may have meant is that rather than fix the fault they have set the split charge relay to 'Continuous operation'.

This would explain what is now happening and if it is the case then it is very, very worrying!

 

Frank,

 

You need to get to an auto electrician who is familiar with Motor homes as soon as possible and find out what the dealer has done before anything serious happens.

 

Keith.

[thebishbus]

Hi. Remember the fridge has two 12 volt supplies.

1---From the leisure battery that feeds just the internal fridge lamp and the gas igniter.

2--- From the engine battery,via a relay (engine running) , for 12 volt operation, this supply will not operate the internal lamp(nor will mains operation). The internal lamp is the guide as to how the fridge is wired. Check operation.

1--- Engine not running, no mains connection. Only internal lamp should be on.

2---Turn off the 12 volt supply from the leisure battery,(our Hymer has a switch on the M/H control panel that turns off most of the 12volt units inc the fridge.) If the internal lamp is still working and the 12 volt operation indicator lamp still lights, (engine not running,) the fridge is connected to the engine battery.

3-- Turn the leasure supply back on . If the 12 volt indicator and the

internal lamp still operate, the fridge is connected to the leisure battery.

4--With engine running and 12 volt leisure battery off. The fridge should be working (indicator lamp on) but not the internal lamp.

Brian B.

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

thebishbus - 2010-07-17 11:40 AM Hi. Remember the fridge has two 12 volt supplies. 1---From the leisure battery that feeds just the internal fridge lamp and the gas igniter.

Agreed.

2--- From the engine battery,via a relay (engine running) , for 12 volt operation, this supply will not operate the internal lamp(nor will mains operation).

First proviso is that for the internal lamp to operate, generally, the fridge has to be "on" for one of the three energy supplies, in this case, the 12V supply.  Second proviso is that the internal light should work when on mains connection, because the mains power pack charges the leisure batteries, and so feeds the fridge internal lamp via that circuit.  I think it may be better to just test that the interior lamp does illuminate when the master 12V supply is "on", and does not when this is "off", and then forget about the interior lamp.

The internal lamp is the guide as to how the fridge is wired. Check operation. 1--- Engine not running, no mains connection. Only internal lamp should be on.

With the proviso, as above, that one of the energy sources is selected.

2---Turn off the 12 volt supply from the leisure battery,(our Hymer has a switch on the M/H control panel that turns off most of the 12volt units inc the fridge.)

With the proviso that the fridge interior lamp is wired this way.  Frank's van is not a Hymer, and may differ in this respect.  However, this is easily verified by operating the 12V master switch, if fitted.

If the internal lamp is still working and the 12 volt operation indicator lamp still lights, (engine not running,) the fridge is connected to the engine battery.

With no mains connected, and with the 12V master switch "off", if the fridge is set to 12V and the green indicator illuminates, then yes, the fridge is connected to the leisure battery - or the split charge relay has failed closed (contacts welded shut, which would mean it is connected to both 12V sources).  In either event, this is a fault condition, and indicates that the split charge relay has failed closed - or possibly has been by-passed to leave the fridge permanently connected to the starter battery.

3-- Turn the leisure supply back on . If the 12 volt indicator and the internal lamp still operate, the fridge is connected to the leisure battery.

The interior lamp should operate with the leisure supply "on", so this is normal.  If the green 12V energy source indicator lights under this condition the fridge energy feed is from the leisure battery (which indicates a wiring fault), or the split charge relay has failed closed, as above (which seems more likely).  In either event, this is a fault condition.

4--With engine running and 12 volt leisure battery off. The fridge should be working (indicator lamp on) but not the internal lamp. Brian B.

 

As above, assuming the wiring pattern reflects Hymer practise.  However, it is important under this condition that the 12V energy source indicator illuminates when 12V is selected, whatever the interior lamp does!

[Passera]

OK been in and out testing in the rain.

 

It appeares number 3 is correct

 

With hook up and 12v mains switch on interior fridge light is on all three options. Also green LED light is on with all three options. Motor not running.

 

Switching off the mains 12v switch then with all three options there is no fridge light or LED light on. The three pin mains sockets are all operational but no 12v lights although no fridge LED on 240v.(Is that correct)

Motor again not running.

 

Turning on the motor nothing changes.

 

The results are exactly the same if I unplug hook up except of course all three pin mains are dead and no 240v LED comes on if selected.

 

I also unplugged hook up and ran fridge for an hour on 12v. Control panel showed leisure batteries charge had dipped. Checked with multimeter and displayed 13.2v usually higher.

 

I think that is telling me as you all suggest that the 12v it is either wired direct from Leisure batteries direct probably due to an initial relay problem. Certainly not wired into an engine start.

 

If this is the case yes a clear issue and problem but apart from the possibilty of the disaster of leaving it on 12v in error does it cause any other problems. My thoughts are to try to resolve it in Spain as we are now planning to leave on Tuesday and to be extra cautious en route with the 12v

 

I also would have thought that killing 12v from mains would not have prevented 240v on fridge from working if hook up is on.

 

Finally I have read that selecting Gas option should trigger a clicking noise as ignition is activated. There is no clicking noise. Apart from trying it on gas over a period to see if lollies go soft is there any other easy way of knowing if gas is working on the fridge.

 

Its another saga I'm afraid.

[Keithl]

Passera - 2010-07-17 2:59 PM

 

Apart from trying it on gas over a period to see if lollies go soft is there any other easy way of knowing if gas is working on the fridge.

 

Feel for the warm exhaust gas coming out of the top vent.

If you remove the vent cover and vent grille you should be able to see the flue and feel for the warm exhaust gas with the back of your hand or the digital thermometer which I recall you using earlier.

 

Keith.

[Brian Kirby]

Keithl - 2010-07-17 3:53 PM

Passera - 2010-07-17 2:59 PM Apart from trying it on gas over a period to see if lollies go soft is there any other easy way of knowing if gas is working on the fridge.

Feel for the warm exhaust gas coming out of the top vent. If you remove the vent cover and vent grille you should be able to see the flue and feel for the warm exhaust gas with the back of your hand or the digital thermometer which I recall you using earlier. Keith.

Silly, I know, but make sure that the gas supply is turned on at the cylinder, and anywhere else that controls gas to the fridge!  :-)

[thebishbus]

ps. As we are trying to establish only where the fridge gets its 12 volt supplies from, I presumed you would have the mains turned off(no hook up) whilst checking.

Brian B.

[Brian Kirby]

Passera - 2010-07-17 2:59 PM OK been in and out testing in the rain. It appeares number 3 is correct With hook up and 12v mains switch on interior fridge light is on all three options. Also green LED light is on with all three options. Motor not running. Switching off the mains 12v switch then with all three options there is no fridge light or LED light on. The three pin mains sockets are all operational but no 12v lights although no fridge LED on 240v.(Is that correct) Motor again not running. Turning on the motor nothing changes. The results are exactly the same if I unplug hook up except of course all three pin mains are dead and no 240v LED comes on if selected. I also unplugged hook up and ran fridge for an hour on 12v. Control panel showed leisure batteries charge had dipped. Checked with multimeter and displayed 13.2v usually higher. I think that is telling me as you all suggest that the 12v it is either wired direct from Leisure batteries direct probably due to an initial relay problem. Certainly not wired into an engine start. If this is the case yes a clear issue and problem but apart from the possibilty of the disaster of leaving it on 12v in error does it cause any other problems. My thoughts are to try to resolve it in Spain as we are now planning to leave on Tuesday and to be extra cautious en route with the 12v I also would have thought that killing 12v from mains would not have prevented 240v on fridge from working if hook up is on. Finally I have read that selecting Gas option should trigger a clicking noise as ignition is activated. There is no clicking noise. Apart from trying it on gas over a period to see if lollies go soft is there any other easy way of knowing if gas is working on the fridge. Its another saga I'm afraid.

Sorry, but I simply can't understand what has been going on.  Clearly the supply is coming from the leisure batteries, possibly the starter battery as well.  I can't begin to imagine how this may affect usability, as I can't visualise what the dealer has done, or what fault he was trying to solve by doing it. 

My best suggestion for getting it fixed would be if you are anywhere near Telford, or Knutsford, Cheshire.  If you are, I would suggest contacting Dave Newell to see if he can do anything to help you out.  He is at the Northern Motorhome Show at the Cheshire Showground at Knutsford this weekend (working), but is usually based in Telford.  Contacts here: http://tinyurl.com/23ycte5 

He is very reliable and multi-skilled, and will get it all fixed if anyone can.  Whether he is within reach of your present location, and whether he will be able to help within your timescales, only he can say.  I can only suggest ringing him to see.

The only problem with trying to get it all fixed in Spain would be the limitations on communication with Spanish technicians in technical Spanish, and possibly finding the right technicians in the first place.

How everything would perform en-route with this lash-up in place I can't imagine.  Sorry, I think you have been singularly ill served by your dealer!  He should not have left you in this position, it is complete incompetence.  Not useful, I know, but I can add nothing more.

[tonyishuk]

A couple of things to throw into the thread:

 

1) My AES fridge if set to 12volt (not auto) The 12volt led indicator glows red if there is no 12volt (engine not running) and green when the engine is on.

 

2) My Secure Motion instructions for travelling with heating make it very clear that the gas should only be on for heating. Whilst in transit ALL OTHER gas valves at the MANIFOLD should be switched to off.

 

Rgds

 

 

[Passera]

thanks to everyone.

 

I did come across Dave Newell from a forum somewhere on a different subject.

The timescale is the now problem. We have changed the ferry booking twice and cannot do so again so I will have to think what to do for the best. If nothing else I have established something is clearly amiss and feel i can get back to the dealer with a degree of knowledge if nothing else.

 

It is so so disappointing.

 

The reason something was done to get it working on 12v albeit a right ole cock up is that previously 12v was not working at all after day 1 even with engine running.

 

Now of course the resolution is wildly amiss.

 

My gas question was a bit of a red herring as i will not travel with it on but was asking merely as so far had not used it.

 

I know the thread has dragged on particularly from original a/c query and it is a measure of everyones patience to give their time and knowledge to us both (wife and i) throughout a stressful experience. More than anything we have learned a lot.

 

I will ressurect the thread when we have some positive news.

 

Thanks again to everyone

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Well, the best of luck, Frank, whatever you decide.  Your restraint has been exemplary.  Happy travels.