Continental 12v sockets

[Shaun]

For two and a half years I've wondered why my Adria Twin only had 12v sockets in the cab and not the conversion. Well don't I feel a prat for only just finding out that there are two extra sockets in the living area, which I'd mistaken for TV sockets due to their smaller continental size?

 

Whilst the usual trawl of forums and Wikipedia entries has made me now clued up as to this type of 12v offering, there are things I haven't been able to establish.

 

Adria make no mention of these sockets in the small handbook, nor have they marked them in any way. Now if they'd put '12v, 180 watt maximum' as per those provided by good old Fiat in the cab, then all would be well. However, there's nowt at all.

 

So, I'm trying to establish how these 'DIN 4165', or 'Hella' or even 'BMW sockets' (showing off now), compare with your more usual fag lighter sockets. Is there a standard spec as regards current draw? I'm looking at convertors from DIN to cigar socket (to suit most 12v applicances in use in the UK) and I see a maximum 10 amp load oft being quoted (sometimes 8). Yet a typical cigar-type socket will take more. The ancilliary socket in my cab is a maximum 180 watts, or 15 amps.

 

I often run my 150 watt inverter from the cab sockets and also, when not on hook-up, I also run the same inverter from my portable battery booster via its cigar socket. I've had no problems with either, but if there's a 10 amp maximum load for a DIN/Hella socket, this brings the inverter's capability down to a maximum of 120 watts.

 

I did read that the DIN/Hella sockets seemed to be attached to thinner wire for cheapness, which would explain the lesser load carrying capability. However, there's no mention of this limitation within any formal spec for DIN/Hella.

 

Also, this type of socket is becoming much more of a standard, not least for lorries, etc. The DIN/Hella connector is acknowledged as being much more robust than its cigar socket counterpart. I therefore can't imagine that a lower capacity standard would be acceptable.

 

So, is anyone more clued up as to the whys and wherefores of this 12v alternative, so I don't fry any stuff I plug in to my newly discovered sockets?

 

Cheers.

 

Shaun

[flicka]

Hi Shaun

Does the Adria manual have a wiring diagram ?

If it has, you should be anle to trace the circuit back to a Fuse No. & then check the Fuse Rating.

Even if no wiring circuit most show which fuse protects what.

[Shaun]

There is a wiring diagram, which I've studied carefully, but I've lost the plot. I can see no mention of something along the lines of '12v socket' (and there should be two on opposite sides of the van), whereas the labelling of other items is good. I see all sorts of things like the various lights, water pump switch, automatic step, etc.

 

Frankly, I don't know what should denote a 12v socket, so I'm not sure what I'm looking for.

[vindiboy]

I would say that unless a previous owner of your van [ if there was one ] fitted the 12v plug sockets they will definitely be protected by fuses so as I see it if you do overload them the fuse will blow and then you can look for a blown fuse, you can buy adapters to fit these sockets so they accept larger plugs.

[Shaun]

That's one way of approaching it - shove stuff in until the fuse blows!

 

I've just been looking at 12v suppliers and there's a lot of 8 amp maximum kit out there for the continental socket. 10 amps seems to be the upper limit, but it seems 8 amps is the more useable range.

 

This I don't get. If my humble lighter socket in the cab can take 15 amps, why is the DIN 12v system so much less? If it's just a question of wire and fuses, surely they could easily support a greater draw than 8 amps?

 

If something comes with a cigar lighter plug on the end, it's not unreasonable to assume it can be stuck in a lighter socket without blowing anything. However, if the plug is a DIN, this seems to impose greater limitations as to current draw. So, if someone swapped a lighter socket for a DIN (or used an adaptor), in order to use their motorhome DIN fittings, there could be a blow.

 

Many 150 watt inverters, for example, are fitted with cigar lighter sockets (and mine works happily in one of those) yet that particular power draw exceeds the 8-10 amps maximum for DIN sockets.

 

Shaun

 

[vindiboy]

HhMMM well if you are that worried about it why don't you just fit a couple more yourself using heavy cable and fuses then you will be sure won't you,

[Shaun]

That's definitely an option but I would like to understand why there seems to be such a difference between the two types of 12v setup. Once I come to appreciate the logistical reasoning behind it all I'll be more confident as to what I'm doing.

[Derek Uzzell]

Shaun - 2010-09-02 8:46 PM

 

That's one way of approaching it - shove stuff in until the fuse blows!

 

I've just been looking at 12v suppliers and there's a lot of 8 amp maximum kit out there for the continental socket. 10 amps seems to be the upper limit, but it seems 8 amps is the more useable range.

 

This I don't get. If my humble lighter socket in the cab can take 15 amps, why is the DIN 12v system so much less? If it's just a question of wire and fuses, surely they could easily support a greater draw than 8 amps?

 

If something comes with a cigar lighter plug on the end, it's not unreasonable to assume it can be stuck in a lighter socket without blowing anything. However, if the plug is a DIN, this seems to impose greater limitations as to current draw. So, if someone swapped a lighter socket for a DIN (or used an adaptor), in order to use their motorhome DIN fittings, there could be a blow.

 

Many 150 watt inverters, for example, are fitted with cigar lighter sockets (and mine works happily in one of those) yet that particular power draw exceeds the 8-10 amps maximum for DIN sockets.

 

Shaun

 

Historically, vehicle dashboard 12V 'cigar-lighter' sockets were normally fused to no more than 10A. More recently, such sockets have been fused to cope with higher current demands. For example, my 2005 Transit has two 12V sockets in the cab - one rated at 10A and the other at 20A.

 

Frankly, if you assume you can run any 12V appliance fitted with a cigar-lighter plug from any dashboard 12V cigar-lighter socket, you are being overly optimistic. There are plenty of 12V appliances marketed with cigar-lighter plugs (eg. tyre pumps, inverters) that draw significantly more than 10A, and some may well challenge your 15A-fused socket.

 

As far 12V DIN sockets are concerned, those advertised in my French leisure-vehicle accessory brochures all seem to be 10A-rated. However, it is possible to obtain higher rated versions (RoadPro advertises 16A ones). Obviously, there's little point in having a 16A-rated socket if the cabling feeding it is rated for a lower current demand (hopefully, if that's the case in a motorhome, the converter will have suitably fused the supply to the socket!)

 

Motorhome wiring diagrams are often unhelpful. My Hobby has a 12V socket for a TV but I don't know what the socket's rating is or which fuse protects it. I knew it was there but, as I've never used it, I had assumed it was DIN-type. On checking, it turns out to be cigar-lighter-type.

 

[AliB]

I have had a quick look through some connector catalogues at work.

Din ISO 4165 plugs and sockests are available in 8A and 16A versions.

 

Also available is a universal plug which will also fit the cigar type socket. See photo.

 

It still leaves you with the problem of knowing the wiring power capability. Have you tried asking Adria?

 

All the catalogues are trade only suppliers but PM if you want more information on the connectors. I may be able to order some for you.

[Shaun]

Thanks for all the info. Wouldn't all this be so much easier if motorhome builders across the board stated on the DIN and lighter sockets what the maximum draw is, according to the wiring and fusing for the vehicle in question?

 

I can find the connectors no problem, as they're advertised all over the place. The issue is what current draw my van can support. I've sent an enquiry to Adria, which might elicit a suitable response.

 

Meanwhile, I've found loads of info on motorcaravanning.co.uk, as they supply so many 12v appliances and adaptors. I've since had a reply to my enquiry as to why all the 8 amp kit, but little above that. It seems that motorhome builders opt for a somewhat neutered capacity on the grounds of wiring cost and weight.

 

Understandably, 12v suppliers therefore stock what most people will be able to use. Applicances do indeed go to 16 amps, but there's little point in anyone buying one if their 12v system isn't man enough for the job.

 

Pending Adria's reply (or not) I'm now assuming that my van will have an 8 amp system and once I have some adaptors for my current 12v bits, I'll remove fuses until the DIN sockets power off.

 

What a palaver!

 

Shaun

[tp002c784tp002c784tp]

Shaun - 2010-09-02 4:30 PM

 

For two and a half years I've wondered why my Adria Twin only had 12v sockets in the cab and not the conversion. Well don't I feel a prat for only just finding out that there are two extra sockets in the living area, which I'd mistaken for TV sockets due to their smaller continental size?

 

Whilst the usual trawl of forums and Wikipedia entries has made me now clued up as to this type of 12v offering, there are things I haven't been able to establish.

 

Adria make no mention of these sockets in the small handbook, nor have they marked them in any way. Now if they'd put '12v, 180 watt maximum' as per those provided by good old Fiat in the cab, then all would be well. However, there's nowt at all.

 

So, I'm trying to establish how these 'DIN 4165', or 'Hella' or even 'BMW sockets' (showing off now), compare with your more usual fag lighter sockets. Is there a standard spec as regards current draw? I'm looking at convertors from DIN to cigar socket (to suit most 12v applicances in use in the UK) and I see a maximum 10 amp load oft being quoted (sometimes 8). Yet a typical cigar-type socket will take more. The ancilliary socket in my cab is a maximum 180 watts, or 15 amps.

 

I often run my 150 watt inverter from the cab sockets and also, when not on hook-up, I also run the same inverter from my portable battery booster via its cigar socket. I've had no problems with either, but if there's a 10 amp maximum load for a DIN/Hella socket, this brings the inverter's capability down to a maximum of 120 watts.

 

I did read that the DIN/Hella sockets seemed to be attached to thinner wire for cheapness, which would explain the lesser load carrying capability. However, there's no mention of this limitation within any formal spec for DIN/Hella.

 

Also, this type of socket is becoming much more of a standard, not least for lorries, etc. The DIN/Hella connector is acknowledged as being much more robust than its cigar socket counterpart. I therefore can't imagine that a lower capacity standard would be acceptable.

 

So, is anyone more clued up as to the whys and wherefores of this 12v alternative, so I don't fry any stuff I plug in to my newly discovered sockets?

 

Cheers.

 

Shaun

 

Hi Shaun

 

I was wondering what are you likely to want to run off your new found 12v sockets ?

 

I must admit I have never gave it much thought about overloading my sockets, but then again I only run a 15" freeview/ DVD player of mine and I have never had any trouble.

 

You say you run your inverter off your Cab 12v sockets so you must leave your ingnition switched on, because my sockets are dead unless you have the engine running or ignition switch on ?

 

Terry

[Shaun]

Terry, it all started when the cost of a proper 12v power supply for my Dell laptops was much more expensive than an inverter, so I bought the inverter and use it for all sorts of small amp stuff, like chargers. However, I don't use the cab sockets unless we're on the move and the kids want to watch a DVD via the inverter.

 

Once stationary, where there's no hook-up, I have a 38 amp hour portable battery booster/starter, which becomes the feed for the inverter and my 12v fans. Although this works extremely well (and I can move it about the van), the booster weighs a lot at 19kg and it takes up space. What's now made a difference is an uprated leisure battery which has added yet another 5k. So I decided it was time to lose the portable battery and rely on the van's 12v system. That's when I discovered the DIN sockets and had to find out what load they could take.

 

I think my laptops will be pushing the inverter too far if it's used via the lower capacity DIN sockets, so I need to see if I can instead use one of the generic 12v laptop supplies, which so many people now have.

 

The 12v fans, which I imported from the USA, are an absolute must in the hot weather, and I'll be using them in the DIN sockets. However, they only pull 3 amps apiece, so no worries there.

 

I think many people have got used to the idea than an inverter up to 150 watts can be used in lighter sockets, with any higher and it has to be a direct connection to the leisure battery. However, the lesser capacity of DIN sockets makes for a rethink; a 100 watt inverter is probably the maximum.

 

Shaun

[Keithl]

tp002c784tp002c784tp - 2010-09-03 7:01 PM

You say you run your inverter off your Cab 12v sockets so you must leave your ingnition switched on, because my sockets are dead unless you have the engine running or ignition switch on ?

 

Terry

 

Terry,

 

The cab socket in our Merc is permanently live so I do not have to leave the ignition on to use it.

The downside of course is that because it is connected to the engine battery I have to remember to unplug things so as not to risk flattening the engine battery.

To overcome this I've fitted a fused lead connected directly to the leisure battery terminating in an 'XLR' socket which I am told is capable of handling 15 A. These are available from Maplin for £6.69 for a pair of Male and Female connectors.

They are 'latching' connectors so they cannot be accidentally pulled out.

Surface sockets are also available for those that need more permanently mounted sockets.

 

Keith.

 

Edit. Post crossed with Shaun's.

I have also made a set of adaptor leads to and from XLR for use with cigar lighter plug/socket and the 2 pin TV socket in our MH as well as an XLR socket connected to a pair of crocodile clips. Virtually all my 12 v equipment is then fitted with an XLR plug. Simple really!

[Derek Uzzell]

It's interesting to note the different approaches vehicle manufacturers have regarding powering cab 12V sockets. Terry's Fiat apparently needs its ignition-ky turned 'fully on'; Keithl's Mercedes has permanently live sockets; my Ford's ignition-switch has an 'accessory' position that allows current to be drawn from the sockets.