Uplift Payload 3500 to 3850

[Guest JudgeMental]

A question: The X 250 35 while being a 3500kg chassis is NOT the MAXI 35, as the MAXI 35 can be upgraded to 4000kg Is this correct?

 

if it is maybe where Murvi have used the wrong chassis. for the life of me looking at their site, I cant see how the front can be overloaded it looks to me to have all the heavy stuff at the back :-S

[Mike88]

The Murvi seems excessively heavy compared to a Swift Mondial Panel Van with Comfortmatic and 3 litre engine. The figures are:

 

The Maximum Permissible Rear Axle loading is 2000kg, Maximum Front Axle loading is 1850kg and the GVW (MTPLM) is 3500kg. The front axle load in all conditions must be between 40% and 70% of the total weight to ensure adequate road holding and the GVW must not be exceeded.

 

Empty - Front Axle 1505kg, Rear Axle 1167kg, Total 2672kg.

 

MRO (90% Fuel, Water and Gas + driver) - Front 1667kg, Rear 1269kg, Total 2935kg.

 

Why the Murvi is so heavy is difficult to understand even with all the extras.

 

[bobalobs]

We bought our Murvi on the 35Maxi chassis having read it is a paper exercise to plate it to 3850 should the powers that be start clamping down on overlloaded campers. As well as the larger wheels I understand the brakes and suspension are beefed up so you get something for your money. I know of a Nuevo owner who asked for his van to be supplied on a 3500 as opposed to 3300 chassis at a cost in the region of£1000 only to find the only physical difference was the rear bump stops!!

I agree with you Judge that there is nothing in the Murvi design to account for the limited front axle capacity. The underfloor gas tank is amidships and the fridge cooker boiler are to the rear. The overcab storage is very limited compared to earlier Sevel models and I doubt the seat swivels are that heavy! It is not made out of "ticky tacky" but nor are vans like IH so wonder what they say are their load capacities.

I would be interestd to see the weghbridge results on an empty unconverted panelvan to compare with the published manafacturers figures in their sales blurb.

[bobalobs]

Mike are the figures you supply from weighing your own vehicle or in part supplied by Swift? And do you have a spare wheel fitted? Time permitting I will have our vehicle weighed later this week to compare.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Bobalobs has done the right thing and ordered a MAXI which has a 2500 towing capacity and 2400kg rear axle. If John had done this it would have saved him £3000! Murvi must share responsibility for this if they fitted Johns extras*-)

 

Mike yours is not a MAXI if it can only tow 2000kg and probably has 1900-2000 rear axle

 

EDIT: I think I misread Mikes post but gist still stands :-S

 

also with a Transit everyone gets a 2250 rear axle so no dramas!

[Mike88]

bobalob. The figures were provided by Swift last week and I do have a spare wheel fitted. The figures do not account for the Airrides, awning, air conditioning, satellite dish, second battery and solar panel. One option might be to leave the spare behind as I have Punctureseal fitted but appreciate that this could be risky.

 

Judge. I do not have a Maxi Chassis and have the 2000 kg rear axle.

 

Clearly my figures will need to be verified at the weighbridge.

[Meadows Engine]

Bobalobs, The weight of my comfort matic Morello’s front axle with driver, full fuel, 2/3rds LPG (under slung tank next to front axle) full clean water, and optional equipment but with no personal effects passenger or kit is 1720kg.

 

This includes the effect of the optional extras on the front axle which is 33kg.

 

Add a passenger on the front seat next to the driver and 225kg of personal effects and this adds a further 104 kg to the front axle load, leaving only a 27kg margin. A bit too close for comfort!

 

If you were to put three passengers on the bench seat a further 113kg would go on the front axle putting it well over weight

 

I have no such problem with the rear axle

 

These are actual weights obtained during the investigation into my Morello when I was investigating why I was in this situation and what could be done to redress it.

 

There was no system available for the front axle of the Ducato in this country until early 2010 when the system that VB Airsuspension supply was developed . I count my self lucky that they did otherwise I would have been up the creek with out the proverbial paddle!

 

Your decision to have the Maxi chassis is a good one it gives you capacity in hand if needed for future use , but if you are leaving it at 3500kg for the time being make sure to weight it fully loaded as the maxi is heavier than the standard van and this can rob you of pay load if left at an MTPLM of 3500kg

 

John

 

PS If you intend tow a trailer in future remember to make an allowance for the potential nose weight of 100kg in your payload calcs.

 

 

 

[Meadows Engine]

Bobalobs, The weight of my comfort matic Morello’s front axle with driver, full fuel, 2/3rds LPG (under slung tank next to front axle) full clean water, and optional equipment but with no personal effects passenger or kit is 1720kg.

 

This includes the effect of the optional extras on the front axle which is 33kg.

 

Add a passenger on the front seat next to the driver and 225kg of personal effects and this adds a further 104 kg to the front axle load, leaving only a 27kg margin. A bit too close for comfort!

 

If you were to put three passengers on the bench seat a further 113kg would go on the front axle putting it well over weight

 

I have no such problem with the rear axle

 

These are actual weights obtained during the investigation into my Morello when I was investigating why I was in this situation and what could be done to redress it.

 

There was no system available for the front axle of the Ducato in this country until early 2010 when the system that VB Airsuspension supply was developed . I count my self lucky that they did otherwise I would have been up the creek with out the proverbial paddle!

 

Your decision to have the Maxi chassis is a good one it gives you capacity in hand if needed for future use , but if you are leaving it at 3500kg for the time being make sure to weight it fully loaded as the maxi is heavier than the standard van and this can rob you of pay load if left at an MTPLM of 3500kg

 

John

 

PS If you intend tow a trailer in future remember to make an allowance for the potential nose weight of 100kg in your payload calcs.

 

 

 

[Meadows Engine]

up'sssss sorry about the duplication , twitcy finger!!

john

[bobalobs]

John I have just checked and though the filler is on the drivers B post the actual gas tank is fitted across the van just tothe rear of the sliding door step. Perhaps an attempt by Murvi to reduce the front axle load if your slightly older has it fitted further forward or perhaps it is because we have the larger "long range" fuel tank fitted leaving no space to fit it in your position. Will let you know when we have been on the weighbridge and am proposing to carry out the exercise in full touring trim as that is how we will be if stopped by the authorities unless someone advises my logic is defective. Cynic that I am I suspect that manafcturers have different factors taken into account when calculating available payload.

[flicka]

Eddie

If the Transit has 2250kg Rear Axle max capacity, surely this must be at the detriment of the Front Axle max (?)

 

[flicka]

JudgeMental - 2010-11-15 3:09 PM

 

 

also with a Transit everyone gets a 2250 rear axle so no dramas!

 

Eddie

With that capacity on the Rear Axle

Surely must severely restrict the Front Axle weight limit (?) :-(

or is it just that the whole Rear Axle capacity is just not usable.

[Guest JudgeMental]

No its not usable but you get some flexability?

 

Even with a double floored, fully winterised overcab camper with twin a/c etc.... I can drive with a family of 4 (all adult sized) and just about be legal at 3500kg...

 

That some panel vans cant achieve this I find shocking to say the least

[Brian Kirby]

No, and yes, respectively, John.

FWD Transit 350.  Front axle maximum 1750kg.  Rear axle maximum 2250kg.  Total of axles 4,000kg.  MAM 3,500kg. 

No vehicle, in standard ex-works form, has an MAM that totals the sum of the axle maxima.  Loads are never so placed (other than by sheer chance, or by calculation) as to load each axle in exact proportion to their carrying capacities.  In practise, loads are placed more or less at random, inevitably with more falling onto one, or other, of the axles.  Flexibility in placing loads has to be recognised in vehicle design, and is achieved by setting the MAM to less than the sum of the axle maxima.  The 3.5 tonne Transit has 240kg more to play with at the rear than the 3.5 tonne SEVEL vans.

[flicka]

Thanks for the info Brian,

I was not anticipating such a high differential between the sum of the individual Axle weights & the Vehicle MAM.

[Derek Uzzell]

Returning to Phil's planned weight-limit uprating for his Auto-Trail, has anyone mentioned the potential repercussions this may have on his 2009 motorhome's Fiat warranty?

 

I'm pretty confident that, although the DVLA seems happy enough with this type of exercise, vehicle manufacturers will not provide officially approval. Should there be any subsequent problem that might be laid at the door of the higher weight limits (a transmission failure, say), it would not surprise me if Fiat said "Tough luck."

 

Just a thought!!!

[Mike88]

With regard to the panel van weight issues and for those wishing to add a towbar, do not forget that there are towball weight limits of a 100kg for the standard or 120kg for the Heavy Version chassis.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Mike88 - 2010-11-17 10:05 AM

 

With regard to the panel van weight issues and for those wishing to add a towbar, do not forget that there are towball weight limits of a 100kg for the standard or 120kg for the Heavy Version chassis.

 

That is nose weight.

we will be OK with either, as new Thule E Bike rack is 18 kg and bikes 20 kg each without batteries. so well within tolerance......

 

for scooter users? I would look to see if that rack with a jockey wheel that takes some weight will fit a PVC (cant remember the name)

[bromleyxphil]

With regard to Dereks point about transmission problems, am I likely to suffer these as I have no problems at the moment. I have reversed up some long steep hills whilst fully laden with no problem. I get a slight 1 second judder on engagement and then the vehicle reverses impeccably.

How can I tell if my van is already fitted with the lower gear already?

I don't feel that able to go to Fiat to complain about a problem that doesn't exist

[Brian Kirby]

Derek raises a very valid point, and I don't think he was making a reference specifically to reversing, but to the fact that you would be operating the vehicle outside Fiat's design parameters.  Were you to consult Fiat on what you propose, I would expect them to advise strongly against, irrespective of warranty considerations.

Your van would be operating heavier than Fiat's plated MAM, the rear axle load would exceed their plated maximum, the rear tyres would not be their recommended fit, and the rear suspension would have been modified by addition of the air assisters.

Under these circumstances, I would expect Fiat to reject any claim that related to transmission components (clutch, gearbox, final drive, driveshafts, front wheel bearings), steering rack, steering linkages, engine and possibly turbo, rear wheel bearings, brakes, and front and rear suspension components.  Indeed, I would not be that surprised if they were to regard the whole warranty as voided.

It is another factor to weigh up, relative to how much warranty remains, and how you feel about the possible risks involved.  Warranties tend to be interpreted inflexibly, and observed to the letter.  Manufacturers will sometimes take a more lenient attitude where they can see a component has failed prematurely, even if just out of warranty.  However, if the vehicle has been modified without their agreement, in general, they will be liable to walk away.

[Derek Uzzell]

bromleyxphil - 2010-11-17 5:30 PM

 

With regard to Dereks point about transmission problems, am I likely to suffer these as I have no problems at the moment. I have reversed up some long steep hills whilst fully laden with no problem. I get a slight 1 second judder on engagement and then the vehicle reverses impeccably.

How can I tell if my van is already fitted with the lower gear already?

I don't feel that able to go to Fiat to complain about a problem that doesn't exist

 

As I understand it, you've so far been driving your Apache fully-loaded (wife and all) innocent of the fact that it was some 155kg above its 3500kg chassis-limit and 40kg above its rear-axle limit. Your proposed uprating exercise is intended to 'legalise' that situation and, as far as I'm aware, you have no plans to operate the motorhome in future differently from how you've used it in the past. On that basis, as your motorhome has no transmission problems now, then there's really no good reason to believe it will develop them in future.

 

I've lost heart with the Ducato/Peugeot 'juddering saga'. However, I think a lower reverse-gear ratio for a 2009 Ducato like yours (which I'm guessing has the 2.3litre motor) would only have been installed if a buyer demanded it and the vehicle clearly exhibited symptoms of the Juddering Disease. I don't know when (or even if) a revised reverse-gear ratio began to be fitted on the Fiat factory-line - Nick Fisher (euroserv) may be able to say.

 

Personally, if I owned a current model Ducato and I was happy how it reversed, irrespective of what reverse-gear ratio the vehicle had, the last thing I'd want is for a mechanic in a UK Fiat agency to pull the gearbox apart.

[bobalobs]

I have now paid the princely sum of £3 (!) and put our Fiat 2.3 Maxi van conversion on the local brewery weighbridge. The van was in light touring mode -- ie no bikes and limited food and clothing but with 80litres fuel, half tank water, full gas and 75kg passenger.

The result was1800kg front axle and1820kg rear axle so well within the Maxi limit of 2100kg front and 2400kg rear. However the overall weight was 3620kg exceeding the 3500kg plated limit.

I know we can weed out a lot of books , maps and "it might be useful someday" items but the bikes will add another 30kg.

I know that the Maxi can be plated to3850kg as a paper exercise but before doing so could someone summarise the pros and cons with relevant links. I know they have been posted in the past but I cannot easily find the info and I did not study it in any detail as I did not think it would apply to me! I recollect the following

 

1. A stricter medical at 70. Does anyone know the details and the common areas of failure?

2. How easy is it to plate the vehicle back to3500kg if circumstances require?

3.More expensive to drive in Austria. Is that just motorways?

4. Any other speed / whatever restrictions in UK/Europe?

 

I know I will save £20 per annum road tax but I fear that there may be disadvantages I have not thought of.

It was interesting that the weighbridgeoperative assumed the maxi van was plated to at least 3850kg. And a friend who has a coachbuilt that was on the 3500kg limit found it was plated to 3850kg though taxed as3500!!

It is worth doing a bit of homework.

 

 

 

[Andy_C]

bobalobs - 2010-11-20 10:40 AM

And a friend who has a coachbuilt that was on the 3500kg limit found it was plated to 3850kg though taxed as3500!!

It is worth doing a bit of homework.

 

I've come across another instance of this just recently and in fact have had a long drawn out discussion with the DVLA and the DfT about the implications of a VIN or converters plate showing a higher MAM than that on the V5C.

 

The answer (so far!) is that the interpretation of which weight is the valid one for any purpose would be up to a court to decide, but that it is an offence not to keep the DVLA updated with the correct vehicle details.

 

Andy

[Brian Kirby]

Andy_C - 2010-11-20 11:27 AM

bobalobs - 2010-11-20 10:40 AM And a friend who has a coachbuilt that was on the 3500kg limit found it was plated to 3850kg though taxed as3500!! It is worth doing a bit of homework.

I've come across another instance of this just recently and in fact have had a long drawn out discussion with the DVLA and the DfT about the implications of a VIN or converters plate showing a higher MAM than that on the V5C. The answer (so far!) is that the interpretation of which weight is the valid one for any purpose would be up to a court to decide, but that it is an offence not to keep the DVLA updated with the correct vehicle details. Andy

It isn't really that complicated.  The plate on the vehicle is the legally definitive statement on the maximum weight, including axle loads, at which it may be operated.  The entry on the V5C is an error, made by whoever first registered the vehicle.  Therefore the V5C is wrong, and should be corrected.  The onus for ensuring the V5C information is correct, as for ensuring the vehicle is being operated within its limits, lies with the owner. 

The insurer will also have to be notified, as they will have insured against, presumably, a declared 3,500kg.

[Brian Kirby]

bobalobs - 2010-11-20 10:40 AM I have now paid the princely sum of £3 (!) and put our Fiat 2.3 Maxi van conversion on the local brewery weighbridge. The van was in light touring mode -- ie no bikes and limited food and clothing but with 80litres fuel, half tank water, full gas and 75kg passenger. The result was1800kg front axle and1820kg rear axle so well within the Maxi limit of 2100kg front and 2400kg rear. However the overall weight was 3620kg exceeding the 3500kg plated limit. I know we can weed out a lot of books , maps and "it might be useful someday" items but the bikes will add another 30kg. I know that the Maxi can be plated to3850kg as a paper exercise but before doing so could someone summarise the pros and cons with relevant links. I know they have been posted in the past but I cannot easily find the info and I did not study it in any detail as I did not think it would apply to me! I recollect the following 1. A stricter medical at 70. Does anyone know the details and the common areas of failure? 2. How easy is it to plate the vehicle back to3500kg if circumstances require? 3.More expensive to drive in Austria. Is that just motorways? 4. Any other speed / whatever restrictions in UK/Europe? I know I will save £20 per annum road tax but I fear that there may be disadvantages I have not thought of. It was interesting that the weighbridgeoperative assumed the maxi van was plated to at least 3850kg. And a friend who has a coachbuilt that was on the 3500kg limit found it was plated to 3850kg though taxed as3500!! It is worth doing a bit of homework.

 Are you sure the passenger weighs exactly 75 kilos, it is a remarkable coincidence!  :-)  It seems you may also have to add the driver to your load.  If, you won't do it!  The problem is, you still don't really know where you are, because the van was neither fully laden, nor at its Mass in Running Order (MIRO).  I would favour weighing it again (at the risk of another £3!), in MIRO trim.  Brim the tank, full gas, full water, empty all other reservoirs, and take everything else, except spare wheel, jack, wheelbrace, etc, out, keeping the fortuitous 75kg passenger on board, but this time also include yourself.  You will then know how much payload margin the chassis leaves you. 

The alternative would be to do as above, but putting absolutely everything in, including the bikes, to "maximum ever likely" touring trim - not forgetting to fill the Thetford cassette (you can use water! :-)).  However, you already know this will put you seriously overweight, and so illegal, and possibly, since you now know, in breach of your insurance, so I would not recommend that approach.

In practical terms, however, I doubt you have any alternative to reinstating the 3,850kg MAM the chassis was built for.  Unless you do that, the van will turn into a albatross round your neck, with perpetual concerns about whether you may get stopped and penalised.

Question 2.  No more difficult than it will be to plate it up to 3,850.

Question3.  No, the go-box is also required for "expressways" which are pretty much whatever the Austrians have decided to designate as expressways, to ensure HGVs do not sneak through Austria on parallel routes.  (But if you want real fun, try understanding which roads in Hungary require vignettes!)

Question 4.  Your van may already weigh over 3050kg unladen, so may already be subject to the lower UK limits.  If plated above 3,500kg it will be subject to lower limits in Europe, including higher autoroute tolls in France, and speed limits on German autobahnen.  However, I think you'll just have to put up with that, or learn to live with a van that nags at you about its "waistline".

Sorry!