An adequate payload?

[Derek Uzzell]

Have you noticed what the forum's 'anti-swearie' software does to "weight watcher" if the two words are run together like this "weighidiotcher"?

 

Brilliant eh - much funnier than James Naughtie's slip of the tongue regarding Jeremy Hunt.

[Brian Kirby]

Ah!  I thought it an odd title for an article, but assumed it was probably just a reference to an "in" joke I'd missed out on!  Weighidiotcher indeed!  :-D

[grahamw]

JudgeMental - 2010-12-11 6:38 PM

...you would not buy a house without a survey would you *-)

 

Certainly not Judge! But by the same reasoning would you expect to enlist the help of a paid professional to help you buy a new motorhome? Secondhand, yes. It's only through experience that folks know the right questions to ask whoever you are buying from. That's why there is so much interest in this thread - folks trying to obtain professional advice.

 

Graham

[silverback]

agree Graham 100%

thanks also to Brian, for the research to this thread and his research to the num 2 thread as always in depth and thourough(is that how its spelt?)

and also to Dereck always informative,

i have printed the info of all threads for future referance

cheers

jonathan

[Guest JudgeMental]

grahamw - 2010-12-12 8:21 PM

 

JudgeMental - 2010-12-11 6:38 PM

...you would not buy a house without a survey would you *-)

 

Certainly not Judge! But by the same reasoning would you expect to enlist the help of a paid professional to help you buy a new motorhome? Secondhand, yes. It's only through experience that folks know the right questions to ask whoever you are buying from. That's why there is so much interest in this thread - folks trying to obtain professional advice.

 

Graham

 

thats is interesting Graham.....and absolutely correct really. buying second hand I have always had a pro vehicle survey, so it seems somewhat odd in that case to accept dealer bulls**te as fact when buying new.

 

but that is where I and many experienced purchasers differ? I dont except salesman/dealers bulls**te for one minute. a dealer could be selling me anything, they dont care as long as they get commission...... and will happily wave me down the road in an unsuitable vehicle laughing *-)

 

 

 

[colin]

JudgeMental - 2010-12-12 9:58 PM

but that is where I and many experienced purchasers differ? I dont except salesman/dealers bulls**te for one minute. a dealer could be selling me anything, they dont care as long as they get commission...... and will happily wave me down the road in an unsuitable vehicle laughing *-)

 

Damn right, having been in position of wanting to buy a van during the hieght of juddergate fiasco I questioned many salespersons on the problem, all but one denied there was any problem at all.

[rupert123]

colin - 2010-12-12 10:12 PM

 

JudgeMental - 2010-12-12 9:58 PM

but that is where I and many experienced purchasers differ? I dont except salesman/dealers bulls**te for one minute. a dealer could be selling me anything, they dont care as long as they get commission...... and will happily wave me down the road in an unsuitable vehicle laughing *-)

 

Damn right, having been in position of wanting to buy a van during the hieght of juddergate fiasco I questioned many salespersons on the problem, all but one denied there was any problem at all.

 

I cannot accept this, what sales person in their right mind would deliberatly sell an unsuitable or faulty vehicle, what dealer would employ one who did. All vehicle dealerships of whatever type rely on their reputation for returning customers. However no sales person no matter how good can know everything about every vehicle they sell so will make mistakes. Their are always two sides to a deal and the customers must take some responsibility.

[Brian Kirby]

rupert123 - 2010-12-12 10:44 PM .............I cannot accept this, what sales person in their right mind would deliberatly sell an unsuitable or faulty vehicle, what dealer would employ one who did. All vehicle dealerships of whatever type rely on their reputation for returning customers. However no sales person no matter how good can know everything about every vehicle they sell so will make mistakes. Their are always two sides to a deal and the customers must take some responsibility.

Have you never heard of "clocking" cars Henry, where the odometer was wound back to great benefit to the dealer?  Not all are trustworthy, and you do need to keep your eyes open.  Caveat emptor is the watch-phrase for good reason. 

We are back in the same area as the first-time buyer is in.  You go to buy a motorhome, having never before bought one.  You don't really know what you are buying, other than what it looks like, and you don't know whether the dealer is a goodun or a baddun.  You may be lucky: you may not.  You improve your chances of success by being healthily sceptical, rather than just taking the word of a seller, who is a total stranger with a pecuniary interest in the outcome of the deal.

If you just read the posts on this forum you will surely have read accounts of people who have been ill-served by dealers and converters.  They, for the most part, trusted in what they were told, and look where it got them! 

Same applies to politicians pre-election claims!  Always ask yourself who gains, and proceed accordingly.  Be careful out there.  :-)

[derek pringle]

When declaring a Payload figure it has been said that this will probably be for the basic van without options added, fair enough, but do manufacturers build anything at all in to the figure for the possible 5% discrepancy. I think not but obviously a 5% difference on a low Payload seem to carry more repercussions than on a van with over 500kg to start with for instance. Even with those manufacturers that appear to give accurate figures how does one find out the individual axle weights. None of these figures seem published, I just see a payload figure but have admitted I am new to this and hope to learn these intricacies.

cheers

derek

[lennyhb]

All these figures are on the Certificate of Conformity, on my COC the Ex works weight is given as 3070 - 3140 kg, axle weights and all other relevant weights dimensions are given.

 

Interesting point the Ex works weight on the sales brochure is given as 3150 kg.

 

 

[mike 202]

Never mind what the Sales-person says or indeed the brochure.

 

The rules for certification allow + or - 5%. So you may be lucky and get a -5% but the tolerance is there for a reason and that is because manufacturers Cannot guarantee to produce to the nominal brochure figures. So irrespective of Brochures, a totally honest sales team, the weight tolerance will always be an uncertainty.

 

If anyone wants to be sure of their prospective vehicles weight then a visit to a weighbridge before signing on the dotted line is essential. If anone cannot be bothered then don't cry if caught out.

 

Happy Christmas to all forum members, safe and enjoyable travels for the new year.

 

Mike.

[rupert123]

Have I heard of clocking cars, well yes Brian I guess everyone has who can read or been in the car business, as I have. It is even easier to do this now but we are not talking about back street car dealers here. I would not pretend that all M/H dealers are saints, who is, but that the great majority are doing their best in a difficult buisness. Of course you have to take care but I just cannot accept they are all crooks out to 'rip off' their customers, as has been implied. In my own experience if I have had a problem with a van the dealer has in every case tried to sort it out. If I buy a van with an unsuitable payload that is my fault, what salesman worth anything is going to point out every potential problem with a vehicle, that is not selling. I wonder how many customers who have a part ex. go around the van pointing out problems to the dealer. I still do not understand peoples problem with payload, look at the brochure and compare, it is easy. If you choose not to check how the figures are arrived at that is your fault. I have been running a M/H for a shorter period than a lot on here and can clearly remember my first purchase. I did not know these forum existed then but it was very obvious I needed to know how much I could load into the van. I only started to contribute when the X250 thing cropped up because I was on the point of ordering one but it did not stop me. When I picked the van up reversed it up a couple of steep slopes, no problem so I was happy. Forums are a great place for information but some people tend to over analyse things and create problems which hardly exist for most.

[nowtelse2do]

rupert123 - 2010-12-13 1:26 PM. Forums are a great place for information but some people tend to over analyse things and create problems which hardly exist for most.

But do exist for some.

So armed with the right information they can make their own conclusions and act on the information provided by the members of the Forum's who have suffered with whatever that problem was.

Dave

[Guest JudgeMental]

nowtelse2do - 2010-12-13 1:47 PM

rupert123 - 2010-12-13 1:26 PM. Forums are a great place for information but some people tend to over analyse things and create problems which hardly exist for most.

But do exist for some.

So armed with the right information they can make their own conclusions and act on the information provided by the members of the Forum's who have suffered with whatever that problem was.

Dave

You are both right...Great isn't it! :-DRupert you are an x car dealer from what I remember....... perhaps you could educate the more gullible on the murkier side of the trade. Banana skins in the gearbox was one I gather :D

[rupert123]

JudgeMental - 2010-12-13 3:12 PM

nowtelse2do - 2010-12-13 1:47 PM

rupert123 - 2010-12-13 1:26 PM. Forums are a great place for information but some people tend to over analyse things and create problems which hardly exist for most.

But do exist for some.

So armed with the right information they can make their own conclusions and act on the information provided by the members of the Forum's who have suffered with whatever that problem was.

Dave

You are both right...Great isn't it! :-DRupert you are an x car dealer from what I remember....... perhaps you could educate the more gullible on the murkier side of the trade. Banana skins in the gearbox was one I gather :D

Eddie you are correct in that I have done many things in my working life and selling cars is indeed one, in fact I still dabble, for my own amusment, although am supposed to be retired. I will have a think about what you say as their is still a murkier side. However I stand by what I said about the great majority of dealers, most are fine, just trying to earn a living and certainly not a bunch of crooks. All M/H dealers I have bought from, not many it is true, have been really 'on the ball'.

[Rosbotham]

rupert123 - 2010-12-13 1:26 PM

If I buy a van with an unsuitable payload that is my fault, what salesman worth anything is going to point out every potential problem with a vehicle, that is not selling. I wonder how many customers who have a part ex. go around the van pointing out problems to the dealer. I still do not understand peoples problem with payload, look at the brochure and compare, it is easy. If you choose not to check how the figures are arrived at that is your fault.

 

I wouldn't blame the salesman, but I would blame the converter/manufacturer. There are motorhomes out there with as little as 200kg payload. That payload is calculated with a 75kg driver...but the average UK male is nearer 80kg so straight away it's flawed.

 

The 5% accuracy allowance means in extremis that 200kg could actually be 50kg. So you couldn't actually carry a passenger, let alone any gas bottles or belongings.

 

Of course, everyone needs to exhibit common sense about how much they take with them. But by the same token, it's clear that some motorhomes are not fit for purpose.

 

If a car manufacturer sold a car where all 4 seats couldn't be occupied without it being illegally overloaded, there'd be all hell to play. The only reason the situation persists in the motorhome world is lack of information.

 

Paul

[colin]

rupert123 - 2010-12-12 10:44 PM

 

colin - 2010-12-12 10:12 PM

 

JudgeMental - 2010-12-12 9:58 PM

but that is where I and many experienced purchasers differ? I dont except salesman/dealers bulls**te for one minute. a dealer could be selling me anything, they dont care as long as they get commission...... and will happily wave me down the road in an unsuitable vehicle laughing *-)

 

Damn right, having been in position of wanting to buy a van during the hieght of juddergate fiasco I questioned many salespersons on the problem, all but one denied there was any problem at all.

 

I cannot accept this, what sales person in their right mind would deliberatly sell an unsuitable or faulty vehicle, what dealer would employ one who did. All vehicle dealerships of whatever type rely on their reputation for returning customers. However no sales person no matter how good can know everything about every vehicle they sell so will make mistakes. Their are always two sides to a deal and the customers must take some responsibility.

 

My comments are not an opinion they are a fact, whilst at the begining of the fiasco not all salespersons might have been aware of juddergate, word soon spread throughout the industry, by the time of the second show we attended it was obvious that most salespersons knew there was a problem, I don't find it hard to spot a liar, and most lied to me, I will not name companies because it is just possible that I happened to just choose to speak to the liars, but I dought it, especialy as, as soon as Fiat anounced a fix every salesperson acknowledged there had been a problem but "it's all fixed now". Why would the salespersons choose to lie? well because of Fiats dominance of the market they had a choise of telling the truth and not getting a sale or leaving their job.

[rupert123]

Rosbotham - 2010-12-13 6:37 PM

 

rupert123 - 2010-12-13 1:26 PM

If I buy a van with an unsuitable payload that is my fault, what salesman worth anything is going to point out every potential problem with a vehicle, that is not selling. I wonder how many customers who have a part ex. go around the van pointing out problems to the dealer. I still do not understand peoples problem with payload, look at the brochure and compare, it is easy. If you choose not to check how the figures are arrived at that is your fault.

 

I wouldn't blame the salesman, but I would blame the converter/manufacturer. There are motorhomes out there with as little as 200kg payload. That payload is calculated with a 75kg driver...but the average UK male is nearer 80kg so straight away it's flawed.

 

The 5% accuracy allowance means in extremis that 200kg could actually be 50kg. So you couldn't actually carry a passenger, let alone any gas bottles or belongings.

 

Of course, everyone needs to exhibit common sense about how much they take with them. But by the same token, it's clear that some motorhomes are not fit for purpose.

 

If a car manufacturer sold a car where all 4 seats couldn't be occupied without it being illegally overloaded, there'd be all hell to play. The only reason the situation persists in the motorhome world is lack of information.

 

Paul

 

Bit baffled by your calculations here. A payload of 200kg less 75kg is 125kg, less 5% of original figure is 115kg or am I missing something. I agree this is not enough but still not a problem to check before you buy.

[Brian Kirby]

lennyhb - 2010-12-13 11:02 AM All these figures are on the Certificate of Conformity, on my COC the Ex works weight is given as 3070 - 3140 kg, axle weights and all other relevant weights dimensions are given. Interesting point the Ex works weight on the sales brochure is given as 3150 kg.

This is true Lenny, but..................

You only get a CoC with a Type Approved (TA) van and in UK, hitherto, and until 29 April next, TA has not been obligatory.  The payload calculation has to be carried out as part of the TA procedure, and TA has been mandatory in Germany for some years.  That, in part, is the reason you know far better what the weights will be on German vans than has previously, and rather shamefully, been the case for UK manufactured vans.  Nothing prevented the manufacturers voluntarily observing the requirement.  The methodology, and the formula, are both in BS EN 1646-2, and have been for years.  They chose not to do this, the decision was not imposed on them. 

One may perhaps be forgiven for wondering why.  If any UK manufacturers are reading this, they may care to comment on why they chose to hand the advantage to German manufacturers, rather than gain it for themselves and benefit the UK economy, and their UK customers, into the bargain.  Difficult one, eh?  Economic myopia is my diagnosis.  Now there's a new phenomenon!  :-)

[colin]

rupert123 - 2010-12-13 8:51 PM

 

 

Bit baffled by your calculations here. A payload of 200kg less 75kg is 125kg, less 5% of original figure is 115kg or am I missing something. I agree this is not enough but still not a problem to check before you buy.

 

The 5% is on total weight of conversion not payload, so for a van quoted at 3300kg it could actualy weight 3450kg!

[rupert123]

Colin I really did not want to go into the Fiat judder thing but even about this I cannot agree with you. Up to the point Fiat said their may be a problem on some vans and offered a fix the official view remain no problem. The sales people had a difficult situation with some customers complaining but most not. The reality was they would have been wrong to tell you all x250 based vans were faulty when they were clearly not. Now you may not like this but it is the way it was. As an example of this I have one and a good friend of mine also has one. Both are a differant maker, mine Swift his Adria and neither of us has had the slightest problem and neither have been modified.

[Keithl]

colin - 2010-12-13 8:58 PM

The 5% is on total weight of conversion not payload, so for a van quoted at 3300kg it could actualy weight 3450kg!

 

Colin,

 

Adding 5% to 3,300 kg actually gives 3,465 kg so is in reality even worse than you make out. I know it's only a small difference but at this ridiculously low payload every gram would have to count!

 

Keith.

[rupert123]

colin - 2010-12-13 8:58 PM

 

rupert123 - 2010-12-13 8:51 PM

 

 

Bit baffled by your calculations here. A payload of 200kg less 75kg is 125kg, less 5% of original figure is 115kg or am I missing something. I agree this is not enough but still not a problem to check before you buy.

 

The 5% is on total weight of conversion not payload, so for a van quoted at 3300kg it could actualy weight 3450kg!

 

OK fair enough but it could equally be the other way, I find it difficult to believe any maker would be this far out.

[Rosbotham]

Thanks Colin

 

...beat me to it.

[Rosbotham]

rupert123 - 2010-12-13 9:08 PM

 

OK fair enough but it could equally be the other way, I find it difficult to believe any maker would be this far out.

 

So if they're not going to be that far out, why not specify e.g. +/- 2%? They don't. Says it all.