Derek Uzzell Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 This is a link to the relevant MHF thread (all 56 pages of it) http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-100897.html&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=lpg&start=0 It would appear that some French service-stations are still continuing to display notices banning motorhomes from using 'autogas' pumps, though finding service-stations that either don't display such notices, or are not strict in policing the 'ban', doesn't seem to be too difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 flicka - 2011-02-22 4:39 PM 1footinthegrave - 2011-02-22 3:58 PM Perhaps I could broaden the subject and ask if anyone who had read all, or the majority of answers, would they feel confident in having a system fitted tomorrow for use mainly when abroad, given that is seems an external filling point seems to be almost mandatory from what answers I did read. Thanks in advance. Many variables will /may apply, especially as things are still at the speculation stage. Lets wait & see if Dave Newell gets a response from the UK Industry body. But with apparent reduction of refilling sources - if interested my 1st step would be to compare the costs of a Fixed Gas Tank v Refillable Cylinders. A Fixed Gas Tank would "appear" to be much less detactable as too it's purpose. Not sure where you draw these conclusions from John. In my experience over the last three years with Gaslow the number of outlets are on the increase, especially in Spain and Switzerland. How would a fixed tank be less detectable if you filler is external? One problem with a fixed tank is you cannot move it between vans without some problems. My bottles are simple to change, in fact when I got our current van the dealer changed them FOC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Right, making the prime faux pas of replying to my own post, and having now read through regulation 67 (well skimmed all 160+ pages :-S) I can see absolutely no reason why it should apply to a separate habitation gas supply. Its scope is specifically for LPG propulsion systems. The original states that: 17.1.7. No appliances shall be connected to the LPG-system other than those strictly required for the proper operation of the engine of the motor vehicle. Amendment 3 (of 4 October 2010 - so we're fairly up to date here) then states that: 17.1.7.1. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 17.1.7., motor vehicles of categories M2, M3, N2, N3 and M1 having either a maximum total mass > 3500 kg or a body type SA4, may be fitted with a heating system to heat the passenger compartment which is connected to the LPG-system. Which would seem to align to the statements already made about only heating appliances being used. BUT the scope of the regulations are throughout defined as being to LPG propulsion systems NOT a totally separate habitation system. I can understand such items as a remote electrical valve applying to LPG propulsion, it is much more difficult to believe it for a domestic supply (and if anything, if it did, you might expect the requirements for switching to reverse between the two uses). I hesitate to jump to conclusions, but I'm more inclined to think that Reg 67 is a red herring, and there is no legislation there to apply. (I was going to go all French and use the term "canard", but I think that might be overstating things) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagey Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 dont know if this has been posted http://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/continental-touring/32708-french-news-report-campervan-lpg-explosion.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I'm going to buy a single bottle system, that's it, sorted. Thanks for all the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 flicka - 2011-02-22 5:16 PM Hi Dave Newell http://www.davenewell.co.uk/ has a Motorhome Service, Repair business and is a regular on the forum. He also fits "Refillable Gas Systems". He posted on the removed thread, that he had e-mailed the LPG Industry body for information, regarding the reported situation in France concerning refilling Gas Cylinders at Service stations with "Autogas". As Dave stated - at this time it is STILL speculation & we should wait clarification. Derek Uzzell posted some information regarding the French Regulations (I can't recall the words) As the thread progressed, it appeared some Shell & Total Service Stations are displaying notices forbidding refilling with Autogas for purposes of Heating, Cooking or Refrigerators, i.e. anything other than the primary Fuel for the Vehicle. The cause "appears" to be relating to 2 incidents in 2009, where there was at least one fatality, whilst refilling with Autogas. Some posters (lucky enough to currently be in France) said they had managed to refill OK, some had seen "prohibiting Signs" at some Service Stations. Think that very briefly summarises where it was at. Errrm not quite John. What I actually said is that Alugas and the UKLPG Association is aware and looking into it. I never said that I had e mailed anyone but as and when I hear anything concrete from any trustable source I'll let you all know. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 You beat me to it! However, there is a reference in Derek's linked information to NF S56-200, which is an out of date ('86, I think) French "norme" that governs fitting out of vehicles as motorhomes, and a subsequent revision ref R6701. I found the text of the former, which basically covers the normal requirements in terms of installation ventilation etc. Can't find the revision anywhere, but suspect the whole thing has since been subsumed into a Euro Norme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-02-22 7:20 PM You beat me to it! However, there is a reference in Derek's linked information to NF S56-200, which is an out of date ('86, I think) French "norme" that governs fitting out of vehicles as motorhomes, and a subsequent revision ref R6701. I found the text of the former, which basically covers the normal requirements in terms of installation ventilation etc. Can't find the revision anywhere, but suspect the whole thing has since been subsumed into a Euro Norme. Brian, I think you may have missed my re-posting of Derek, your, and my original comments that I've done further up the thread, and my follow-on to that in the same and a further post. ...oops, or maybe not, since it would appear you may have been answering me, rather than, as I had assumed, Dave N. (the danger of switching out of threaded view):-S However: As the Reg 67 I've found corresponds to the info on the Borel site, how they install it, and all the bumf about being able to use heating only - I'm pretty sure it is the one they are using. It is also widely quoted as EC/67/01 or R 67-01 depending on nomenclature. FWIW, I also hit (but about LPG propulsion) - "A legal requirement for the UK is fitting in compliance with the UK Construction and Use Regulations (available from HMSO). To meet this, the equipment fitted will need to be to EC/67/01. Whilst in Europe all equipment should be EC/67/01 approved, the fitting requirements are different." - the bit about the fitting requirements is interesting. The relevant point is that it still doesn't look like it should apply to a hab installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Wot! no latin 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 pelmetman - 2011-02-22 7:58 PM Wot! no latin 8-) .....not you again!! Me transmitte sursum, caledoni! *-) ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Robinhood - 2011-02-22 8:23 PM .....not you again!! Me transmitte sursum, caledoni! *-) ;-) Beam me up Scotty :D ........................You've been Google'd (lol) (lol) I'm a quick learner :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Dave Newell - 2011-02-22 6:42 PM Errrm not quite John. What I actually said is that Alugas and the UKLPG Association is aware and looking into it. I never said that I had e mailed anyone but as and when I hear anything concrete from any trustable source I'll let you all know. D. Apologies for misquoting you Dave, I was trying to recall the main points of the deleted thread & the old grey cells let me down. (again) !!!! :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-02-22 7:20 PM You beat me to it! However, there is a reference in Derek's linked information to NF S56-200, which is an out of date ('86, I think) French "norme" that governs fitting out of vehicles as motorhomes, and a subsequent revision ref R6701. I found the text of the former, which basically covers the normal requirements in terms of installation ventilation etc. Can't find the revision anywhere, but suspect the whole thing has since been subsumed into a Euro Norme. Further to my previous :-( The snip at the bottom (from a list of standards applying in the French leisure industry) may help with the status of NF S56-200 - it has been subsumed into EN1646-1. Having re-read all the other links, I've hardened up on my view that there is a single source of all the confusion here, and I think it is the information that BOREL are giving out. They are pushing their Homegaz system, which has all the bells and whistles, including some that Gaslow (other refillables are available :D ) don't feature, such as the metal band location, and the remote, auto shut-off. They state, quite openly elsewhere on their site "The technologies used are those of the automobile, European approval R67-01" They then quote the self-same conformance for the "hab gas", but as far as I can see, apart from one possible comment, they appear to be flogging the safety aspects of the R67-01 approval, rather than stating it is manadatory. Given the data on the site about R67-01, I am in no doubt at all that it is the same EC/67/01 I've linked to the full documentation of (and which refers to LPG propulsion only). Then, the site that Derek found (with the NF S56-200 reference) credits all its information to Borel - so the R67-01 info is simply that supplied by Borel, it is not a cross-check for validity. Interestingly enough the translation of the relevant bit from the above site is: "This requirement has been updated (under reference R 6701) to be consistent with EU regulations. However, this European requirement has a major drawback because it limits the use of LPG fuel to heating alone . This involves having a facility with two circuits: one for heating and one for other consumers, or to switch to the propane tank when using devices other than heating. Fortunately, the professionals are working with European lawmakers to regularise this aberration. They hope to succeed before summer 2011." Well, we've seen EC/67/01, and it does have that restriction (as amendment 3) BUT the whole regulation appears to apply only to LPG propulsion systems. Borel's major business is in LPG conversion of motor vehicles; having read the regulations, I'm coming to the conclusion that they might simply have moved from their major to a minor business with the same standards, without thinking, or that they are being a trifle "économique avec la vérité" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Yep, I had reached more or less the same conclusion, and then had to rush away before I was quite satisfied (which is why my post above was a bit garbled - apologies for confusion caused). I hadn't quite finished my bit of digging, but I think you've now dug it up anyhow. Good job! :-)BTW, I had meant to say thanks for retrieving the core of the original string, great work. Don't understand how you managed it, but I'm sure we're all grateful to you for that little stroke of genius.I'm also pretty convinced your analysis of Borel's thinking is accurate: i.e. they do LPG conversions for petrol engines, and just haven't realised the regulation with which they are ham-stringing themselves is irrelevant to motorhome installations. Quels plonquaires! Well done Robin des Bois! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 flicka - 2011-02-22 9:25 PM Dave Newell - 2011-02-22 6:42 PM Errrm not quite John. What I actually said is that Alugas and the UKLPG Association is aware and looking into it. I never said that I had e mailed anyone but as and when I hear anything concrete from any trustable source I'll let you all know. D. Apologies for misquoting you Dave, I was trying to recall the main points of the deleted thread & the old grey cells let me down. (again) !!!! :$ No worries John, two others made the misquote before you so that's probably where the confusion arose. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-02-23 12:12 AM ...I'm also pretty convinced your analysis of Borel's thinking is accurate: i.e. they do LPG conversions for petrol engines, and just haven't realised the regulation with which they are ham-stringing themselves is irrelevant to motorhome installations... Borel have been involved with leisure-vehicle refillable gas-bottles for at least 5 years. Their "Homegaz" bottle is described on http://www.borel.fr/index.php/gpl-vehicule-loisir.html and the Homegaz system was advertised (for €635) in the 2006 Masters Accessoires catalogue. So Borel is far from being a newcomer to the use-of-autogas for motorhome habitation appliances scene. My understanding is that France has its own national regulations relating to the gas systems of French-built/registered motorhomes. (For example, I vaguely recall reading once that there's a French regulation relating to the joints in the leisure vehicle's metal gas pipework being soldered rather than compression-type.) Borel's webite suggests that a metal strap must be used to tether the refillable bottle, but a non-Borel bottle described on the following webpage http://www.camping-car-webzine.fr/fiche-gpl.html is tethered via bolts through the gas-locker's floor. It may also be significant or not!!) French-regulation-wise that the latter bottle's installation uses a very peculiar set of soldered pipework connections. In practice, it shouldn't really matter to UK motorcaravan autogas users what weird and wonderful gas-system rules France has, or if Borel is misinterpreting European regulations. The important question is "How difficult will it be to refill a gas reservoir if one is touring in France?" At the moment, the answer seems to be "Not too difficult". Slightly off topic, but I noticed a new refillable gas-bottle being exhibited on Stand 4471 at the currently-running NEC show. Details are on this website: http://www.safefill.co.uk/ I was told that the bottle is made in Sweden and the target market is UK caravanners who might be considering opting for BP's "Gas Light" composite bottle to save weight. The "Safefill" bottle has a POL female-threaded inlet that directly accepts a UK-standard autogas fill-gun. A screw-in adapter would be needed to allow different flll-guns to be connected and I was told that such adapters are being developed. (In practice, this won't be difficult as lots of people (including me) already have a 'gizmo' that would be suitable.) Provided that autogas suppliers/agents can be convinced that out-of-vehicle and on-bottle (rather than remote) refilling is acceptable as long as the container is properly designed, the Safefill product has considerable attractions. It's simple, light, not too small or large, has 80% cut-off and back-check valves, visible gas contents, and it isn't hugely expensive. Unlike the MTH Autogas composite bottle (one of which I've been using for over 7 years), the Safefill container is far more foolproof. It's not a direct competitor for '2-hole' (eg. Gaslow) or '4-hole' (eg. Stako) bottles as remote refilling is realistically impracticable and the Safefill bottle will need to be disconnected/reconnected from the leisure vehicle's gas system for the refilling process to take place. But it could be worth considering if you want a muliti-purpose bottle or want to avoid the cost/complexity of a 'fixed' installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 while the safe fill looks intersting, I can see problems refilling it until they are recognised by autogas retailers, and that aint going to happen any time soon. If I cant transfer my system to new van (smaller locker) I will get another one, the price being far outweighed by the sheer convenience and ease of refill.....I went to local garage yesterday to fill up with gas as I did not realise I was running out. the thought of going back to bottled gas and all the associated hassle and lack of availability in mainland Europe is something I am not prepared to go back to..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 So is it okay to have a filler union,connected straight to the bottle then..? (Safefil and Gas it style) I thought it had to be remote? :-S (..sorry,I haven't fully re-read this this thread..and the pulled one did get rather sidetracked *-) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 JudgeMental - 2011-02-24 11:38 AM ...while the safe fill looks intersting, I can see problems refilling it until they are recognised by autogas retailers, and that aint going to happen any time soon... The Safefill exhibitors explained to me that they had been liaising with UK autogas retailers throughout their new bottle's gestation period and were optimistic the retailers would choose to have properly engineered bottles being refilled than have ex-exchange canisters being illegally filled via Heath Robinson adapters (which many forum members will be acutely aware goes on). We'll see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 pepe63 - 2011-02-24 11:49 AM So is it okay to have a filler union,connected straight to the bottle then..? (Safefil and Gas it style) I thought it had to be remote? :-S (..sorry,I haven't fully re-read this this thread..and the pulled one did get rather sidetracked *-) Chris As far as I'm aware, a 'remote' filling-point is not mandatory. Have a look at this earlier thread, particularly the link in the thread's final posting. http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=21959&posts=15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterandlinda Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Bought both LPG and Diesel from same service station in Northern France yesterday am with no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Derek Uzzell - 2011-02-24 12:03 PM pepe63 - 2011-02-24 11:49 AM So is it okay to have a filler union,connected straight to the bottle then..? (Safefil and Gas it style) I thought it had to be remote? :-S (..sorry,I haven't fully re-read this this thread..and the pulled one did get rather sidetracked *-) Chris As far as I'm aware, a 'remote' filling-point is not mandatory. Have a look at this earlier thread, particularly the link in the thread's final posting. http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=21959&posts=15 Oh!..Thanks for that then ;-) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 1footinthegrave - 2011-02-22 4:45 PM Hello, did not know such a thing existed as a fixed tank apart from for cars, mmmmm. And you mention someone who is looking into this does he have a website. But perhaps I should wait a little longer before taking the plunge then. Life's complicated, but thanks. I used to be undecided, now I just cannot make up my mind. We have previously had refillable cylinders (and not had problems filling anywhere) but, at the time of deciding, there was some information that having the gas filler point either inside the gas compartment or on the door was not such a good idea as the constant opening/closing of the door put some strain on the flexible pipework and joints and could lead to a dangerous leak. So, we took the sensible option and had it fitted in the side skirt of that coachbuilt. We now have a panel van conversion and (due to other design factors inside the van) we opted for an underslung gas tank (22 litre capacity) but again with an external filler point that looks, to all intents and purposes, just like any other gas filler point. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Started off with good intentions today to take the filler cap out of the cabinet and mount on skirt. Looked for the filler housing that had not been used and I had put in a "safe" place to no avail and now looking for the housing. Will contact Gaslow but any ideas of a supplier I can source from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 sshortcircuit - 2011-02-24 5:32 PM Started off with good intentions today to take the filler cap out of the cabinet and mount on skirt. Looked for the filler housing that had not been used and I had put in a "safe" place to no avail and now looking for the housing. Will contact Gaslow but any ideas of a supplier I can source from? When we had the coachbuilt we had the filler mounted on the side skirt (whcih was quite substantial) and the installation was done by Autogas 2000 at Thirsk who conevrt vehicles to run on gas and used a very neat (50mm square) filler. They can be found at: http://www.autogas.co.uk/ David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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