LEDs ?SMDs failing' but "voltage safe" to 30v

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Having spent a considerable amount on supposedly "voltage safe" to 30v G4 smd units last year, most have failed within a short period of time ( talking 100 hours or less), with either individual smd's blinking before going out, or just "blowing" with a faint burning smell being noticeable. The supplier said it could be voltage spikes, so declined to replace them under guarantee.( despite spending £130 with them). I've noticed that when on a mains hookup the voltage can be as high as 13.8 volts DC, and just wonder if this could be part of the problem. I hasten to add these units were supposed to be a quality product. Does anyone have any experience of this problem, and have they found a solution.

 

Please guy's and gal's no theories, I've plenty of those, but any first hand experience of a solution would be very much appreciated. ;-)

[lennyhb]

I don't think there is a solution, you need to get tough with the supplier looks like you have been sold some crap LED's, if as you say they are speced up to 30v even with the batteries on a full chagre at 14.5v there shouldn't be a problem.

I've had G4's in my van for over 2 years without any problems and a few months ago fitted some MR11's that were cheap ones from Hong Kong I think they were £1.99 including postage and they have been fine, sitting under them now wild camping in Scotland.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Thanks for that, the supplier "Ultraleds" is having none of it, apparently he is not the most helpful fellow according to google search comments. These are the newer SMD units, the little flat yellow thingy's rather than the bulbous earlier LED types. I had also had a go at cheap ones from Ebay, these also gave up the ghost rather rapidly. Perhaps I'll go back to halogen, or see if there is such a thing as a 12volt DC to 12 volt DC regulator, a real pain in the butt after you've paid out such a lot of cash.

 

P.S, I'm curious about your ability to be on the internet whilst wild camping in bonnie Scotland, I can barely get a mobile signal here in rural Wales, what kit do you use ?

[lennyhb]

My are SMD the G4's UK sourced about £4.50 the MR11's cheap ones from ebay.

 

At a very small village Glencapel south of Dunfries using Vodafone dongle with 3G connection, phone is on O2 with full signal will probably all change when we get to the highlands.

[lennyhb]

My are SMD ones from ebay.

 

At a very small village Glencapel south of Dunfries using Vodafone dongle with 3G connection, phone is on O2 with full signal will probably all change when we get to the highlands.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

lennyhb - 2011-04-21 9:50 AM

 

My are SMD ones from ebay.

 

At a very small village Glencapel south of Dunfries using Vodafone dongle with 3G connection, phone is on O2 with full signal will probably all change when we get to the highlands.

 

Thanks Lennyhb, must look into that dongle malarky, I've now emailed Atken lighting to see if they have any info before I put my hand in my pocket yet again, we do a lot of wild camping, so energy saving is very important to us, or early to bed with a candle otherwise. Enjoy your trip, hope it's sunny up there for you.

[hallii]

LEDs are diodes, diodes have a spec. for forward and reverse voltage (and current).

 

LEDs do not like voltage spikes.

 

Your 12v system can generate some fairly high voltage spikes, switching a heavy load on /off or switching some other types of load.

 

Once a spike has damaged the LED it will fail in due time.

 

To see the spikes you need some expensive equipment and it needs to be connected for quite a while.

 

12v to 12v regulators are available, but you would need one at each LED or on the common supply to them all, this circuit should not have any other load on it.

 

The LED circuit will have some sort of simple spike and voltage protection, but it will only cope with those spikes / overvoltage within the circuits design parameters.

 

I also use LEDS and have had no problem, My guess is that there is an item on board that is generating a spike at switch on /off. It could be anything, maybe the water pump or an inverter built with price in mind and no regard for quality.

 

Something as simple as a filament bulb turned on and connected to the same circuit will damp down spikes, maybe 5w or so. It would be better to find the culprit and install some filtering to stop the spikes in the first place. If you know anyone handy with a soldering iron a simple circuit can be built that will do the job for about 50p.

 

It can get complicated, but hopefully my simple explanation will help.

 

I suspect your supllier is correct, if one fails early in it's life it was probably faulty, if two fail early it might be a faulty batch. If more than one fails at extended and varying times then it is probably outside infuences.

 

H

[colin]

I wouldn't disagree with what you have posted geoff, but why is it that the customers of ultraleds are more prone to voltage spikes and why is it they don't seem to get these voltage spikes when changing to a different supplier ;-)

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Thanks to the poster above but one ( geoff is it ) but surely I have only the items likely to be found in the average M/home, Truma combi boiler, sureflow water pump, both of course pull a few amps on use. One of my G4 types went in an instant, despite others also being on at the time. Today I've noticed one single smd blinking on and off, nine others on the same unit are still lit, no doubt the others will as before start to fail. Out of my original twelve purchased only two have all the smd's alight. Most started to have just a single smd's starting to fail, indeed some still work with about half the smds on the miniature circuit boards.

 

No reply from Atken lighting, so much for a customer pre-sales enquiry I guess ! !

 

To think that the solution may be to switch off the lights before using either the water pump, or boiler really makes them unfit for purpose, again as I said they are supposed to be safe up to 30 V dc.

 

The poster above makes an interesting comment, despite Ultraleds saying he has sold hundreds without complaint, how would anyone know that to be a fact, I suspect most on just buying a couple would right it off to experience. Keep the comments coming, I would really like to get to the bottom of this.I have also had the onboard charging system checked out today and it is bang on within spec.

 

:-|

[CPeachey]

I have spent a couple of hours trawling through the E-Bay offerings. I had bought 2 units at the Peterborough show last week from Leisurepower for £9 each (12leds 170Lumens) The problem with most of the E-Bay ads is that they do not give comparable specifications. Some have 24 leds with apparently less output than others with only 9leds! There seems to be a variation in what LEDs have been used in the unit with the better ones quoting "5050" but even with some of these the ad says NOT suitable for more than 12.0volts whilst others say "for boats, Motorhomes etc" so the circuitry must also be varying.

Having now been totally confused by the whole issue I am inclined to stick with Leisurepower.

Are there any other suppliers that are reliable?

Chris

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I originally tested the water with some "festoon" LED's from an Ebay Hong Kong seller, 99p each plus I think from memory £1.30 postage, although they worked for a while ( maybe 20/40 hours) they all failed one by one, not the end of the world, and the old saying comes to mind.

However having paid around £9 per single one from Ultraleds I was expecting "quality" and they were specifically touted as being suitable as direct replacements for the halogen equivalents. Having the comfort zone of a 12 month guarantee I paid my money, a guarantee that turned out to be worthless, oh well. I'm aware that even on newly supplied vans that are now fitting LED/Smd's these too are failing in some cases, so much for the claimed 10.000 hours life. Only two of these "quality" ones are still working, I just sit there waiting for the inevitable tell tale blinking, used to love the old gas lamps and mantles in the old touring caravans, at least they gave you some warmth as well, mind you some CO2 as well no doubt. :-S

[Keithl]

Hi Chris,

 

Have you tried CAK Tanks?

 

I haven't bought LED's off them but have bought other stuff and found them very good. They usually have a large stand at the NEC shows with all their LED offerings on display.

 

Unfortunately I've yet to be convinced the outlay is worth it and am still using halogens myself.

 

Keith.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

CAK tanks are very good generally and have been promising since last year an online shop, the problem seems to be a reluctance, or a get out with this "voltage" spike business. Have also spoken to this company who more than most have replied, anyone had any experience with them at all. Theirs are supposed to have both an internal re-setting fuse, and protection from voltage spikes. Some good info there as well.

 

As for the initial outlay I was more than happy to spend that sum of money, for the "luxury" of having a very well lit van ( when they all initially worked) with a total of 12 GU4's to have all or the majority on, battery drain was a real issue unless on mains ( which we rarely go on ), with just one 20 watt halogen using as much current as all 12 on it was a revelation.

 

I also figured with the leisure batteries getting less of a hammering as I bought two new ones at the same time, there would be cost savings with longer periods gained before battery replacements were needed again.

 

http://www.bedazzled.uk.com/12v_LED_Bulb_Replacement.htm

 

[747]

I bought mine from www.bedazzled.uk.com

 

Their website is a good one for the novice as they give direct comparisoms with halogen bulbs. Their prices are good too. So far, no problems.

[CPeachey]

Bedazzaled does give the most comprehensive data. They have 15 led units which are brighter than the 12 led units I bought. Are they TOO bright? Is anyone using them?

Chris

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

CPeachey - 2011-04-21 9:00 PM

 

Bedazzaled does give the most comprehensive data. They have 15 led units which are brighter than the 12 led units I bought. Are they TOO bright? Is anyone using them?

Chris

 

Chris, not quite sure what you would mean by too bright without making a direct comparison with what you have. The highest output ones that I had were about the same brightness as a 20 watt halogen, certainly not too bright for us ! !

[TandemTec]

I've got 1 16w Fluorescent light and 1 12LED white light in the roof. They are roughly equal in brightness, enough to read a book by. I swopped the white LED for a warm white one and it was not bright enough so I think the more powerful 12LED warm lights may be about right.

ps..I changed my loggin name!

Chris

[747]

CPeachey - 2011-04-21 9:00 PM

 

Bedazzaled does give the most comprehensive data. They have 15 led units which are brighter than the 12 led units I bought. Are they TOO bright? Is anyone using them?

Chris

 

I just swopped like for like as I do not want to be under bright lighting and as a wildcamper, I can conserve my batteries more effectively. I used bright white instead of the yellow halogen equivalent (warm white). It is much better for reading. Without checking the van, I think mine are 6 LED's and the bright white gives more light than the originals even though they are comparable.

 

For anyone contemplating the changeover, just buy a couple of LED's at first.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Sorry to be a pain guys, but some posters are as is often the case wandering off topic, I am really interested in LED/ SMD failures, or solutions, thanks. ;-)

[Dave G]

colin - 2011-04-21 3:00 PM

 

I wouldn't disagree with what you have posted geoff, but why is it that the customers of ultraleds are more prone to voltage spikes and why is it they don't seem to get these voltage spikes when changing to a different supplier ;-)

 

I bought my LED's from Ultraleds over a year ago and haven't had a problem with them. They are all still working perfectly in my Autosleeper. In the interest of fairness have to say perhaps it isn't Ultraleds fault, but maybe, as has been suggested, something on board your van is causing a voltage spike?

[Dave G]

Oops! Now how did a double post happen?

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Dave G - 2011-04-22 6:19 AM

 

colin - 2011-04-21 3:00 PM

 

I wouldn't disagree with what you have posted geoff, but why is it that the customers of ultraleds are more prone to voltage spikes and why is it they don't seem to get these voltage spikes when changing to a different supplier ;-)

 

I bought my LED's from Ultraleds over a year ago and haven't had a problem with them. They are all still working perfectly in my Autosleeper. In the interest of fairness have to say perhaps it isn't Ultraleds fault, but maybe, as has been suggested, something on board your van is causing a voltage spike?

 

Well from doing a quick Google search it appears that some find their products fine, some find their products and customer ( lack of ) service diabolical. I still do not get this "voltage spike" malarky, and simply cannot understand why if advertised as being good for 10 to 30 volts I am having this hassle. I would dearly love to hear about hours in actual use, rather than the length of time fitted from forum users, a world of difference if someone only uses their van infrequently. (?)

[p0930]

Try Aten Lighting. I have found them very helpful.

 

[Brambles]

Because voltage spikes on vehicles can be a lot higher than 30 volts.

 

It was explained by Hallii.

A lot depends on individual vehicles and the wiring harnesses and you just to need to accept your vehicle is obviously got transient problems in the wiring mixed in with probbaly some poor quaity LED lamps.

 

Transient coupling onto the lighting circuit could be caused by poor routing of the cables, badly designed positioning of earth returns and where supply feeds are taken from. Your best option is to fit some transient supression to the the lighting circuits if using led lighting. You may get away with just simple 0.1 uF ceramic caps across the lamps, but may require more invloved transient supression such as a Diode in series with the lamps, then a 10UH choke in series and then a capacitor to ground to act as much better filter and prevent reverse voltage transients reaching the lamps. If fitted common to all lamps at the supply feed connection it may work but if the noise is being picked up in the lighting circuit itself by cross coupling or poor earth routing then it will make it worse.

 

All you will get is theories without expensive equipment being used and a lot of time to investigate the problem and source of transients causing led failures and the skills to do so will not come cheap.

 

Your best option is to fit filters or 12volt transient supression and suck it and see. OR, source lamps with built in transient and voltage regulation protection becuse yours clearly only have basic protection, and I am not even sure if you will get bulbs in the style you need with protection, most automotive rated LED units just cover stop lamps, and auto bulb style led lamps. Fortunately most get away, or should I say many get away with the cheap led lamps in their motorhomes but some do not and you are one of them.

 

You could also try supression on items like the pump motor and any other switch circuits but all this gets quite involved. There is NO simple one answer solution - only theories at this stage because you seem to have tried various sources of LED lamps and all are failing. Forget your safe up to 30 volt spec, its meaningless as far as your problem is concerned, transients which can occur are far greater and can be hundreds of volts. If you know someone with a good oscilloscope and can check out noise on your wiring then you might get somewhere much faster.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I must bow to your superior knowledge, I feel like a cave man, but many thanks. Perhaps a generator and go back to halogen is the best option for me. :-)