Shaun Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Last Friday morning, my wife took the motorhome to work, so I could use the car. I thought I'd imagined the exhaust-blowing-type of noise which emanated as she drove off, yet later I found three nuts on the drive next to each other, which raised suspicions. Teatime, as the missus arrived home, I heard the exhaust really was blowing. Hmmm... a quick look under the van and there was a section missing. Penny dropped and I realise we'd been robbed. OK, as we all do, I've since researched this to the nth degree this past few days. Coincidentally, there's been a recent MHF thread covering much the same issue, and I suppose I could just take the useful bits out of that and proceed. However, I'm still undecided as to the next step, so I'll summarise the main things I've gathered and see whether there's anything new and relevant which might come up from this thread. The thief/thieves in my case would have removed the cat probably in the dead of night, as I'm around so much during the day that legs sticking out of the side of my van might just have raised suspicions. My wife and I heard nothing and it happened just below our bedroom window. We can't be sure when it happened as we hadn't used the van for a few weeks (and we sure ain't using it now!). I've had a good look underneath the van and taken a few pictures. I can see the flange end of the cat was simply unbolted and the nuts left as a thank you on our drive. Less conveniently (yet so common), the exit pipe from the cat was sawn off. Finally, above the cat are a pair of rubber mounts, which were sawn through to assist removal of the expensive piece. We could dwell on the obvious question: why on earth are precious metals contained within a vehicle part which is so easy to steal and then sell on? Given how often cats are nicked and the sheer hassle which owners then have to go through, you would imagine that the motor industry... the police... anybody... would have come up with a solution, beyond rounding off nuts or having to attach seriously expensive steel rope cages around catalytic converters, to prevent theft. So, down to the practicalities. There are so many of these things stolen that Fiat dealers (in my case) often run out of stock and have to await delivery from Italy (sometimes weeks) for the offending parts. Trouble is, as an alternative, I see from eBay and after-market suppliers, that they tend to be available more for the earlier versions of the Ducato, and the price is significantly cheaper than for the X2/50. The insurance company, Safeguard, immediately confirmed the cat theft was covered and that I should set the ball rolling by obtaining a police crime report number. I've now done that, had various phone calls from various police departments, and even a personal visit from the local bobby. All utterly irrelevant, of course, as we all know there's little they can do. Anyway, what this now boils down to is the DIY solution or putting it through the insurance, so I'm now weighing up the pros and cons, with a holiday in four weeks time and an incomplete exhaust system. I could possibly source the parts myself. OK, I appreciate it's easy to suggest the average secondhand parts dealer is stock full of nicked Ducato cats, but let's just assume that if they do have one, it would be from a crashed vehicle, which they've subsequently dismantled. I've been through too many posts on this topic as to the lack of regulation within the scrap industry, that it wouldn't serve much purpose to repeat it all here. A secondhand Fiat cat could be up to £500, from what I've seen to date. There's then the question of the severed piece of exhaust to replace, plus the rubber hanger things, which provide the suspension for the cat. Labour could be added if I wanted, though the job actually doesn't seem to entail much more than perfunctory and easily accessible bolts. I guess we might collectively by now have ball-park figures as to the completed job, if I were to go the DIY route. Yet I'm insured - why bother with all of that? Well, a £250 excess, plus the inevitable hit on future years' insurance premiums isn't appealing. It probably doesn't help that last year I had to have the windscreen replaced, again by Safeguard, due to one blasted stone chip from a passing lorry. Now, just to add more flavour to this seemingly regularly occurring theft of precious metals conveniently wrapped in an easily-accessible piece of tin, I should introduce the other school of thought, which has its fair share of advocates: I give you the 'do away with the blasted cat and replace it with a straight piece of pipe' alternative solution. Sounds good, but regrettably a solution which seems to have as many opponents as it does those in favour. I'm still trying to fathom whether anyone out there actually has managed to have the piece of pipe knocked up, to replace the space which used to be taken up by a catalytic converter. Oh, and there's also the Lambda sensor to be considered - this sits inside the cat, so when cat gets nicked, bye bye not-cheap sensor. So, in the one corner we have those who claim a straight piece of pipe (if one could be found) to replace the cat would result in better performance and fuel consumption, and also that the MOT most definitely does not require the cat to be in situ, as all that matters is the exhaust emission reading. In the other corner, we have the 'no chance, mate - the ECU will have a fit at the lack of original parts, so basically you're screwed and your vehicle will go into limp-home mode.' Does anyone really know? Has anyone actually fitted a piece of pipe where the cat used to be and might care to say what happened? I do like to save the best till last. My love/hate relationship with my local Fiat dealer continues. I sent pictures so they could see what would be needed to replace the cat, sensor and ancilliary parts. I said I might not be putting this through the insurance. Hey, that's got to keep the bill on the lighter side, doesn't it? £2,344.19. Did you spit into your drink? Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazooka Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Sorry to hear about your cat theft shaun,I thought that it was a legal requirement to have a cat fitted after 1992.Also would your insurance be void.sorry I can't offer you anything positive to help. Baz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 Apparently not, Baz. This is the kind of stuff I've been wading through.... legal and insurance implications. By all means someone give us the real chapter and verse on the can and can'ts, but it seems diesel engines aren't such an issue as their petrol counterparts. Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 The opinions that I've seen put forward on this vary, but one thing is clear, whether legal or not the main hurdle you will face is at MOT time, where at least, the emissions as tested will be of interest, and at worst, the existence of a cat. It was certainly possible to fit de-cat pipes in the past, but the only research I've done is for the case where the vehicle was available both with and without a cat as originally built. As a follow-up, one of the biggest aftermarket cat manufacturers is based around here, and I've previously done checks as to whether they would provide an alternative source, and drawn a blank. A recheck today, however, indicates that things are a little more advanced, and that they are awaiting type approval for their aftermarket x/250 cat - so anyone affected in the future may not be reliant on Fiat supplies. http://www.bmcatalysts.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob b Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 I remember reading on a motorcycle forum some time ago now, that some people had removed the cat from the exhaust system to improve the performance. Apparently the bikes still passed the emmissions test at MOT time. Obviously the bikes are petrol fueled, I don't know the position for diesels. In edit, they cut the exhaust open, removed the internal gubbins and welded the casing shut again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 For the moment The MOT on a diesel only concerns smoke emissions ( wider tests on other emissions are on planned soon though). The newer the vehicle the lower the smoke limit and it may be the cat is needed to meet current standards. There may also be problems as data from the Lambda is more than likely used by the engine management system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Shaun, Have a look at this thread from last year Link where Nick (Euroserv) quite clearly says that an X2/50 will not run with the cat removed even if it is replaced with a length of straight pipe. He still monitors this forum so may well reply with more up to date info tomorrow. I think the answer is to replace the cat then find a means of stopping the thieving so and so's getting at it again. If you always park in the same place on your drive could you build a concrete block that you park over to prevent access, or failing that a metal cage that you could chain under the 'van? Keith. PS Mandatory Cat fitment after 1992 was only for Petrol engined vehicles. Diesel Cats are only fitted to meet Euro lV or V emissions and are not actually a legal requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 I've read also that - for those who've binned the cat - there were no issues at MOT time. One tester noticed its absence and asked whether performance had been improved as a result! It seems the emissions reading was not adversely affected. There's certainly a body of opinion which feels that cats on diesel engines are unnecessary and they both hinder performance and increase fuel consumption. I'm really not that interested in the politics behind it all and would just like to establish if there's anyone who's actually had a pipe fitted in place of the cat (and not a whole stainless steal system, which is another suggestion). If so, have there been any issues since? What stinks about having the cat stolen is that if I replace it, they could so easily come back for the replacement. So to avoid this, I'm looking at all manner of contraptions and drive-over obstacles on my drive to prevent such easy removal next time. I bet they don't put that in the motorhome lifestyle ads! So, if it's at all feasible, I'm certainly tempted to just stick a pipe in place of a cat, if it all stacks up. Something else springs to mind. Given the hard-to-get nature of these things, what if you or I are in some dark reaches of the continent and the cat gets nicked. What then? Yes, sir - should be with us within the month. Doesn't that in itself beg the question why there aren't easily obtained, temporary, made-to-fit, bits of exhaust pipe to just bolt on, for a range of popular base vehicles, given how often cats are stolen? What the hell do people do if the cat is stolen whilst on an aire, stellplatz or suchlike? Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 Keith, Nick's observations were part of the body of responses which I've been reading. As ever, there were others who disagreed and said there should be no problems. However, much of this comes across as opinion based on what in theory should or should not happen, as opposed to actual experience. I've yet to read of anyone who's removed the cat, was able to have a suitable piece of pipe made up (not as easy as it sounds, from those in the know), who has then compared the before and after in terms of vehicle performance and fuel consumption, and who has subsequently had an MOT carried out. Looking at matters from the interaction between the cat and the engine management, my wife drove our van to work and back, effectively without an exhaust system, as the cat had been very near the front of the system. No exhaust, no Lambda sensor, yet apart from a lot of noise, she didn't notice anything untoward. This was the same experience from the lady who recently posted about the same situation on MHF - she just experienced more noise than usual. No ECU kicking up a stink and limp home mode kicking in. Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Shaun - 2011-06-27 7:53 PM We could dwell on the obvious question: why on earth are precious metals contained within a vehicle part which is so easy to steal and then sell on? As most cats cost about £50 to make and the precious metals contained in them are worth maybe £1? security proboly not even thought about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 Colin, if the precious metal within the cat is only worth a quid, why would they be so nickable? If they cost only £50 to make, why are they so stupidly expensive to buy? I've seen aftermarket cats selling for £700. Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 I've used John Woolfe Racing for one off exhausts. http://www.woolfe.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wints Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I know it's not a modern fiat, but a few years ago I had a merc 412 based motorhome. The exhaust had started to blow so I had it replaced with a stainless steel one. The fitter said that a 'cat' was in position, but that it was not necessary to retain it in the new system. I know that my merc didn't have the sophisticated ecu of the new fiats, but there was still an ecu, and the lack of a cat didn't appear to trouble the vans running. regards Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 I have removed the cat from my X250 and replaced it with a straight pipe. I have welding skills so I bought pipe, flanges etc off Ebay and made it up myself. There were no sensors or other complications on my model (2008 2.2 100BHP) just 3 flange bolts, 1 pipe clamp and 2 rubber mount arms. It runs just as it did before - perhaps slightly more powerful, perhaps slightly improved economy, I really haven't bothered to check. I cannot comment on the MOT issues as I will simply bolt the cat back on for the next MOT test. When we come back to the van after a day on the bikes or whatever it's nice to know it will still have a complete exhaust system at least.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Sean, You would appear to be in the best possible position to comment on the feasibility of not replacing the cat. If you ran the van with it missing and did not have any warning lights showing then it could be that it does not matter and it will not go into limp mode; at least not to begin with. This may change when the engine is under load. I did previously state that the engine management system will throw a wobbly if the lambda sensor readings are not correct, and that still makes sense but the emissions from these engines are so clean anyway that unless the engine is under load, and the lambda measurements are not 'as expected' by the ECU it might not throw up any warnings or limp modes. When I last wrote about this i simply disconnected the probe from a normal working van and it lit up like a christmas tree, and that's why I said that it would not work. If the sensor is no longer connected because that part of the pipe is missing then this throws up yet more questions. If this were my van I would get a replacement pipe fabricated and give it a go. If you can get away with it it must be worth a try. The MOT test for Diesels only incorporates a smoke test and as long as the exhaust system is intact, complete and secure it should pass. There will doubtless be the odd over-zealous tester who will be awkward but by the letter of the law it is fine. If after carrying out a range of driving tests on your vehicle you do notice any misfires, lack of power or smoke you will have to fit the right parts, but there will undoubtedly be some after market kit about soon. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Thanks, Nick, very useful. I'm sorely tempted to go for the straight through pipe, but wonder where to start in terms of having one knocked up. Any ideas? I've already contacted the insurance company, but haven't yet made a claim. Two Fiat dealers tell me they can have the job done for a refitted cat, etc, within a few days, so it looks like supply is OK at the moment. Other people have had to wait weeks for parts to arrive from Italy. However, with such an astronomical costs of replacement, and with the effects on my future insurance, it does make sense to have a bash at the cheap alternative, so I'm holding fire on the claim at the moment. Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snitrats Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Have a look at ebay, Prices around £90-£150.00. could be worth a look , better than £700. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Show me a link, Geoff. On eBay all I could see was cats for earlier model Ducatos (pre 2006), which are an awful lot cheaper than for the current version. Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snitrats Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Shaun - 2011-06-28 3:44 PM Show me a link, Geoff. On eBay all I could see was cats for earlier model Ducatos (pre 2006), which are an awful lot cheaper than for the current version. Shaun Sorry Shaun , Did not look that close, was'nt sure of you van age. Surly there must be someone out there cheaper. :'( Just had another look as I am worried about mine going missing (2.2 09 Fiat) try cats2u. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Geoff, if I go through the insurance, it doesn't really matter whether I can possibly source parts cheaper. If I'm going to cough up an excess and then be hammered at renewal time, then I may just as well let a Fiat dealership handle it all. However, if I decide to go the DIY route, then it's only because I can make a massive saving by just sticking a piece of exhaust in place of the cat. Yes, I still have misgivings as to what might happen thereafter, plus travelling in the van to Europe in four weeks' time isn't helping matters. Safeguard's parent company have just rung me to ask what was happening, and I think what was said might be of interest to others. If I can keep referring back to the recent thread on MHF about the exact same issue, then this would make more sense to those who've read it. There is no pressure upon me to use any garage or Fiat dealership at all (contrary to the issues reported on that other thread with that other insurance company). I can choose whoever I like, so long as the cost is agreed beforehand by the insurers. To this end, they'll send someone out (garage or my driveway - no problem there either) and they will give the go ahead if the cost seems OK. The other thing which never ceases to amaze me in the insurance industry is the windscreen thing. I was asked whether I'd made any claims of late, and I mentioned the motorhome's windscreen replacement of last year. That cost Safeguard well over a grand, but the lady concerned today didn't feel that was relevant and only wanted to know about any accidents or driving convictions. Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Shaun, That is yet another incredible rip-off! Insurance firms are renowned for being slow payers and argue the toss about everything with repairers so list prices are always charged. This does invevitable affect everybodys insurance particularly when it comes to 'free' windscreen insurance. You pay £50 excess, the insurer gets billed over £500 and yet I can get a tinted screen for an X250 fitted wherever I like for £160. Whe everyone's insurance is going up every year in spite of no claims they would have you believe that it is because of uninsured drivers but it's actually because the insurance firms are too stupid to get a better deal by promising to pay more quickly! Anyway; my first stop would be one of the exhaust centres that offers stainless systems, made to measure and see what they can come up with. Powerflow seems the most common on the street. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Thanks, Nick. I see I have such a dealer nearby (part of a tyre replacement place), so I'll try them. Meanwhile, what about the lambda sensor? I've done a little research and they seem to send fast messages to the engine management system regarding optimum fuel mixture, and as time goes by, the sensors eventually lose efficiency and need replacing. So, if the lambda sensor was in my cat and I replace that with a straight pipe, this would in theory suggest I would be lacking an important fuel mixture control. I don't know how the sensor talked to the ECU, but is its absence another fly in the ointment? Shaun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Hi. Why are you all ignoring the post from Steve 928. He says he has removed the CAT from his X250, and it runs OK.? Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob b Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Same thing occurred to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everhopeful Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 If you modify your vehicle to improve performance then your insurance company will certainly want to know, and will probably raise your premium. Failure to tell them would possibly invalide your cover. So, although ditching the CAT seems a good idea, could the performance issue give your insurance company a getout in the event of an accident? I'm hoping the increase in performance would be minimal enough for them not to bother - but can you be sure? Don't forget that in the event of an accident claim the insurance company will usually have your vehicle inspected by an assessor approved by them, not you. I know the main reason for removal isn't performance, and it could save the insurance company having to fork out for another replacement, but we live in a strange world nowadays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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