Condolences to the Norwegian people.

[Brian Kirby]

So, who now will take up arms to defend their position? Look at the title of this string. Is a quarrel in cyberspace now the best memorial that can be constructed?

 

I have to say I think Donna's comment regarding the Norwegian defence lawyer is unfair. I can only judge what I have seen on TV, but he appears to me a man who is acutely uncomfortable with his lot. I think he is a very brave, and honest, individual who has been dealt a terrible hand. If some on here can condemn a person for taking on one of the most unpopular and difficult tasks that can have been invented, consider his position in his native Norway. Who here would have the courage to defend a man whose behaviour is, to any sane person, indefensible?

 

Dispense with the trial and just string him up, is not the response of a civilised people. It is to the great credit of the Norwegians that they have a legal system that requires a proper investigation, proper trial, proper diagnosis, and fitting sentence, whatever the crime. If he were just summarily dispatched, who would decide which crime should next be dealt with in the same way? This is civilised democracy at it best, and its most difficult. Don't shoot its messengers.

 

I would also add what is wrong with the idea the man is mad, is criminally insane? Was his behaviour; were his acts; normal? Could any of us have done what he did?

 

What does it mean to be mad? Are only those who dribble a gibber mad? Anyone ever heard of Broadmoor, the secure mental hospital, whose inmates have an IQ, on average, several times greater than the national average? These folk are perfectly rational, intelligent, thinking, people - but they all have a fatal flaw, in that they reason themselves into positions from which the only logical escape, to them, is to kill those who take different positions. They are, by any normal standards mad, yet in almost every respect they appear normal, until that trigger is pulled. They are some of the most frightening people around, simply because they are undetectable until they act. This guy is, almost undoubtedly, one of them.

[BGD]

Donna: "What sickens me even more than the atrocities he committed, is the scumbag lawyer who is accepting payment to defend him."

 

 

 

Is that, truly, your fully thought-through, honestly held position Donna?

 

1. The Norwegian nation has a democratic judicial system that allows or appoints a defence lawyer to anyone charged with a criminal offence.

 

2. A man murders 76 other humans in cold blood.

 

 

 

And you say that you find point 1 more sickening.

 

Maybe try expressing that view to any of the parents, relatives and friends of any one of those murdered people. Or anyone else from Norway. Or any human being.

 

 

[donna miller]

Nice play on words Bruce, you should be proud of yourself.

 

I already stated what I found disgusting, and I stick by my opinion.

 

Just for the benefit of the inquisition set up because of my opinion, here is my reason.

 

The lawyer is state appointed, paid for with the taxes of the working population of Norway, the very same taxpayers whose children were massacred by the person you clearly state has a right to be defended.

 

So all you "he has rights" defenders, how much would you be happy to shell out to defend the murderer of your own children?

Would you also leap to the defence of the person building that persons defense.

 

 

"Is that, truly, your fully thought-through, honestly held position Donna"

 

As a parent, damm right it is.

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

I will state my position.

 

It is society (i.e. the state) that has the right to have him tried, not the man who is entitled to have himself tried.

 

That right is a fundamental protection for everyone, against potential excesses by the state. Find me a state where that rule of law does not run, and I will find you a tyrant.

 

Do we want states that observe civilised judicial systems, or do we want rule by tyrants?

 

If we are to just switch on and off the application of the law, who should decide, under what circumstances, who should operate the switch? The mob? The government? A simple majority? Karadžic? (He's only there to illustrate what happens when the wrong person gets hold of the switch! :-))

 

So, whatever the crime, however monstrous, however gross, however apparently obvious the guilt, a public trial in open court for all accused, is the only safe way to ensure our own safety at the hands of the state. For that to be demonstrably fair, there has to be a judge, admissible evidence, a prosecution, and a defence.

 

His defence is a job someone simply has to do - however much they may wish otherwise - in any civilised country, to ensure that country remains civilised. It is no more complicated than that.

[CliveH]

 

 

hear hear.

 

One thing I am happy to pay taxes for is so that every individual can have their day in court and be fairly represented whatever the crime.

 

Those freedoms are what many died for. Justice HAS to be for everyone.

 

If not we have Animal Farm

 

Where "All animals are equal - but some animals are more equal than others".

 

Being a parent in no way excuses the concept of a fair trial for all. Because whoever is in the dock - they are someone’s son or daughter.

 

[francisgraham]

By coincidence I've just paid my very large bi-annual tax bill, which as usual, is due at the end of July. Some of this money will go towards paying for those who are unemployed and some for those who need state benefits in other ways and I do not, in principle, begrudge one penny of it. I say in principle because there will always be the undeserving work-shy but the vast bulk of my taxes will be spent on those who need it and do deserve it.

Part of my taxes will go to paying state-appointed lawyers to defend horrible people. I do not begrudge one penny of that either as I'd rather live in a civilised society, where everyone is treated the same, than in one where those with a lynch-mob mentality would act just as previously-ordinary decent Germans did when they'd been convinced that it was acceptable to murder Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and cripples, just because they didn't conform to that society's standards.

It is important that, in cases such as this, the state occupies the moral high ground and does not bow to the baying of the small number of brutal simpletons who are unable to think beyond their primitive animal instincts.

It doesn't take a huge I.Q to work out that denying Breivik his basic legal rights would play right into his hands and make him a martyr to every other right-wing nutter in Europe. That however would never occur to those who have only gut reactions and are unable to apply any form of intellectual reasoning to their outpourings.

I can't tell you how pleased I am that this thread has shown that most members of this forum do understand why the rule of law must prevail, and I find that most heartening.

[Guest pelmetman]

The only problem is the scales of justice seem to be weighted on the side of the criminals and not the victims*-)

[Dave225]

Having travelled back to the UK over the weekend we were not fully up to date with what had happened, and like others cannot really understand the mentality behind such an act.

 

However, at Zeebrugge my outfit was searched inside and out, as was everyones, and at Hull there were delays for the processing of passports by Immigration. While any security that protects us is welcome I do sometimes feel that such actions in the UK are about 13 years too late. Evidently the Norwegian had some UK buddies who gave him 'inspiration' so maybe that is why we had such close attention. . Without any acknowledgement of his actions there has been so much terrorism from Islamic groups over the last few years, and what appears to be in this country, and others, a very soft attitude by the authorities, then possibly a reaction from the other end of the spectrum is not surprising. However, to murder innocent children who were not even Islamic does seem to be totally illogical if your intention was to attack that religion.

[malc d]

Dave225 - 2011-07-28 5:47 PM

 

Having travelled back to the UK over the weekend we were not fully up to date with what had happened, and like others cannot really understand the mentality behind such an act.

 

However, at Zeebrugge my outfit was searched inside and out, as was everyones, and at Hull there were delays for the processing of passports by Immigration. While any security that protects us is welcome I do sometimes feel that such actions in the UK are about 13 years too late. Evidently the Norwegian had some UK buddies who gave him 'inspiration' so maybe that is why we had such close attention. . Without any acknowledgement of his actions there has been so much terrorism from Islamic groups over the last few years, and what appears to be in this country, and others, a very soft attitude by the authorities, then possibly a reaction from the other end of the spectrum is not surprising. However, to murder innocent children who were not even Islamic does seem to be totally illogical if your intention was to attack that religion.

 

 

Dave

 

The Norwegian Labour party has run Norway for many years ( 50 ?) and this person did not like their immigration policy.

His 'logic' therefore was to kill the next generation of the Norwegian labour party, presumably in the mistaken belief that no-one would take their places.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave225]

Yes, Ihad seen that connection identified in the news, even though it is pretty tenous to any 'sane and sensible' person.

 

Without hopefully offending anyone my comment would be that Norway has made a pretty successful job of running their country over the last decade or so, especially in their conservation of oil revenues to provide unlimited resources to their people, so if this loopy felt they were doing wrong, with a pretty small immigration content, one wonders what actions would be considered here in the UK when you look at what has been done in our name over the last decade or so. Oil revenues splurged to the high winds, immigration out of control etc etc. Fortunately, I do not think the majority would ever consider such insane actions, but we now evidently have many people who are British in name, but not in cultural idealogy, so one lives in fear I suppose.

 

Without in any way excusing his actions, there is in my mind some culpability to be laid at the door of various politicians over the last decade.

[BGD]

A tribute to the people of Norway:

 

 

 

 

 

[CliveH]

:'(

[laimeduck]

BGD - 2011-07-30 12:07 PM

 

A tribute to the people of Norway:

 

 

 

 

 

Quite excellent Bruce - well done - a proper tribute.

[pkc]

Truly haunting.

Nice one.

 

No man is an island entire of itself;

every man is a piece of the continent;

a part of the main;

if a clod be washed away by the sea,

Europe is the less..............

And therefore never send to know for whom

the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

 

John Donne.

 

[BGD]

Cheers...........