So..these "new" Fiats then...

[pepe63xnotuse]

Having come across a couple of articles about the "new" Fiat(..I think in the most recent CC and C&CC mags),I noticed that there had been no mention of any gearbox redesign or indeed any referance was made to any previous "short comings"..

 

Do we assume that with these "new" vehicles have got the reverse gear malarky sussed now..?

or had it been fully sussed prior to this latest model..

(..I don't mean for this to turn into another "Reverse gear judder" slanging match thread..as I'm well aware that some out there,refused to believe it existed in the first place :-S )

[bolero boy]

As far as I have gleaned, the latest Ducato is 'new' in a number of respects including Euro V compliant engines, a new 115hp diesel (which may not come to the UK), upgraded power/torque to existing 130/157hp engines to give 150/180hp (IIRC), upgraded dash and ICE systems.

Cant remember any mention of you know what!

[spospe]

Given the publicity about FIAT's problems with the gearbox reverse gear, I do find it very odd that reviews of current models (see recent MMM and Caravan Club Magazine) do not mention the problem at all when doing tests of new models :-(

 

The 'new' FIAT has got quite a reputation to live down to, so I personally would like to see some assurance that the design fault has been lain to rest.

[Guest pelmetman]

The fact that they have not even acknowledged previous problems makes me suspicious*-)  

[colin]

AFAIW the 'new' Fiat is just a few tweeks to the exsiting model, I guess it performs just like our model in reverse, which is very well.

[Mike88]

If you have the energy to trawl over previous threads you will find that those who own Fiat's manufactured post October 2009 (I think that's the correct date) will have a softer clutch plate fitted thereby eliminating the judder. That applies to all models including the 3 litre. Unfortuneately there are a few threads which seem to ignore that fact and this particular thread might again resurrect the issue raised mainly by non x250 owners. But, like you, I sincerely hope it doesn't!

 

The Fiat (x250) is a great base vehicle which a few posters on here (mainly non x250 owners) simply don't get.

 

Look out for threads by euroserve who has extensive experience with fleet vehicles and has posted authoritative advice on the subject..

[DJP]

Mike88 - 2011-08-01 8:18 PM

 

Fiat's manufactured post October 2009 (I think that's the correct date) will have a softer clutch plate fitted thereby eliminating the judder. That applies to all models including the 3 litre.get.

 

Look out for threads by euroserve who has extensive experience with fleet vehicles and has posted authoritative advice on the subject..

 

softer clutch plate fitted thereby eliminating the judder.

 

NO IT DOES NOT! I speak from experience of having had the new softer clutch plate, along with dual mass flywheel fitted in January of this year at 12000 miles, replacing the original 2008 fitted one.

The judder is just as bad in forward and reverse. If anything, it may be slightly worse as the clutch is either "in or out" making moving off from rest a little more difficult.

[Mike88]

DJP - 2011-08-01 8:35 PM

 

Mike88 - 2011-08-01 8:18 PM

 

Fiat's manufactured post October 2009 (I think that's the correct date) will have a softer clutch plate fitted thereby eliminating the judder. That applies to all models including the 3 litre.get.

 

Look out for threads by euroserve who has extensive experience with fleet vehicles and has posted authoritative advice on the subject..

 

softer clutch plate fitted thereby eliminating the judder.

 

NO IT DOES NOT! I speak from experience of having had the new softer clutch plate, along with dual mass flywheel fitted in January of this year at 12000 miles, replacing the original 2008 fitted one.

The judder is just as bad in forward and reverse. If anything, it may be slightly worse as the clutch is either "in or out" making moving off from rest a little more difficult.

 

I suggest you re-read my post as I stated all Fiat's manufactured post October 2009. Your's is a modified 2008 vehicle.

 

Leaving your difficulties aside I am unaware of any threads concerning the newer Fiat's experiencing a problem but I think most of us on here haven't the stomach for another round of threads on this topic.

 

I was merely attempting to answer the OPs question and not resurrect this issue.

[urbanracer]

I had a 2007 Peugeot Boxer had all the fixes clutch,lay shaft,gears and computer update for me cured problems.

Last year Oct 2010 bought a new van chassis build date June 2010 no reverse problems and lots of under bonnet mods.

So I would buy another anyday, from mods done looked like they have listened just took a bit of time for improvements to take place and as yet no recalls.

And I was a very persistent campaigner against Peugeot at the start but it was worth it.

Super Van to drive.

[Derek Uzzell]

Andy Stothert summarised the X/250 ‘juddering’ situation in September 2010 and euroserv confirmed Andy’s analysis. The “softer clutch plate” Mike88 mentions seems to apply only to 3-litre vehicles.

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=20761&start=1

 

MMM magazine (July 2011) reported that, for Euro V Ducatos, “gearboxes remain the same” with 6-speed ‘boxes for 2.3litre and 3.0litre motors and a 5-speed ‘box for the new 2.0litre motor. I don’t know if the latter gearbox is the same as that used with the ‘old’ Euro IV 2.2litre motor (now dropped) or something else.

 

Regarding DJP’s problems, as the only factory modification to 3.0litre X/250s has (according to euroserv) been the introduction of a clutch-plate revision in late-2008 to increase resistance to damage from overheating, and this hasn’t helped DJP, it’s reasonable to assume that 3.0litre Euro V Ducatos should be no worse, or better, than their predecessors when it comes to reversing.

 

Though this suggestion will undoubtedly grieve people afflicted with reversing problems relating to X/250-based motorhomes with 3.0litre motors and manual gearboxes, I believe they are going to have to accept that the only cure would involve a revised-design gearbox and that Fiat aren’t going to do this.

 

My own view (for what it's worth!) is that, if you have a FWD chassis with a powerful motor and a manual gearbox with a high overall reverse-gear ratio, and you build a heavy motorhome on that chassis, then there's a certain inevitability about what the consequences will be.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Oops! sorry folks ..I didn't mean to re-open any old wounds... :$

 

Thanks for the replies... ;-)

[Mike88]

Derek

 

My information came from a post from Andy Stothert and it concerned all X250's and not only the 3 litre versions. You are correct in saying that the clutch applies to the 3 litre but my point that post production mid 2009 models seem to pose no problems although the suggestion is that motorhomes in excess of 4 tonnes should not use the 2.3 engine.

 

This is what Andy said:

 

2.2 litre 5 speed models

There have (thus far) been no component failures on the 2.2 5 speed models which can be laid directly at the door of the reverse gear ratio, BUT, from mid 2009 these were produced with a modfiied gearbox which incorporated a lower ratio.

 

2.2 litre 6 speed Peugeot, and 2.3 litre 6 speed Fiats

There has been only one gearbox failure on any of the 2000 plus vans modified by Fiat to include the lower ratio reverse gear, and from what the owner tells me I don't think the damage was caused by a failure in Fiat's engineering, as it doesn't quite fit the usual pattern. More likely driver abuse by the previous owner.

There don't seem to have been any clutch or gearbox failures on the latest production gearboxes made since mid 2009.

Any risk now seems to be restricted to buying a van made before the modified gearbox was put into production and which has not had the modifications done.

There is slight fly in the ointment here as a few 2.3 litre 6 speed Fiats have been produced carrying very heavy coachbuilt bodies on the 4 ton plus chassis, and the modifications, which seem adequate on the lighter 3.3 and 3.5 ton vehicles, are obviously less effective on the bigger ones. It would be probably best to avoid a 2.3 litre Fiat on a 4 ton (or above) chassis whether it has been modified or not.

 

3 litre 6 speed manual models

A Fiat employee who has been reliable throughout this debacle has stated that since mid 2009 the clutch lining spec has been changed to lessen or remove the tendency for the clutch to overheat too readily when reversed in extreme circumstances and slipping the clutch to control the speed of the vehicle. This does seem to backed up by a lack of 3 litre models which have incinerated their clutches recently.

 

I'm hoping that this will be my last post on this subject, as I hope (and believe) that Fiat have now done enough to prevent component failure as a result of the high reverse gear ratio, and even though the ratio is still too high in certain (rare) circumstances, the clutch and box now seem capable of dealing with this.

If anything significant arises then obviously I'll pass it on to everyone, but hopefully this will not be the case.

[euroserv]

Hello,

 

The post quoting Andy Stothert remains completely correct. It must be assumed that the most recent gearboxes and components will carry over unchanged.

 

It is common practice in automotive circles (and particularly with Fiat) to roll out all mechanical modifications BEFORE the launch of a significant update in order to ease the transition and to study any quality issues or warranty claims so apart from the Euro 5 engines, anything else that was going to change mechanically will have done so 6 months or more ago.

 

I would just add that DJP must have a 2.2 or 3.0 because the 2.3 does not have a dual mass flywheel, so cannot have had a new one fitted.

 

I would suggest that the newest form of X250 is as good as it gets and will be pretty much unchanged for the next 5 or so years. I hope that the comfort-matic gearbox becomes available on the 2.3 in the future because it is available on 2.3 and 3.0 engines in the Iveco Daily and in all honesty nobody really 'needs' 180hp! The latest Euro5 3.0 Daily has just been announced and is now 205hp which is just stupid until you realise that the Daily is available up to 7T and then it starts to make some sense until you consider that 7.5T trucks tend not to have this much power all commercials are restricted to 56mph above 3.5T anyway.

 

In spite of the concerns about gear ratios; EGR valves and broken injector clamp screws we continue to have a steady stream of new vans arriving and they go on fleet and do about 70,000 miles a year with very little drama so remain in my opinion and that of our customers, by far the best van available today. Use some caution in choosing the right one for you and make sure you make the most of the factory options to tailor the suspension in particular to your needs. It is highly unlikely you would regret your choice.

 

Nick

[onecal]

Hi all.

What have they done to stop the judder with the NEW ones?.

Regards,

Brendan

[euroserv]

I give up.

[pepe63xnotuse]

euroserv - 2011-08-02 4:12 PM

 

I give up.

 

:D ..I was wondering how long it was going to take..? :D :D

 

Priceless.... ;-)

[Bob Elswood]

euroserv - 2011-08-02 4:12 PM

 

I give up.

 

:D

[DJP]

Mike88 - 2011-08-01 9:58 PM

 

DJP - 2011-08-01 8:35 PM

 

Mike88 - 2011-08-01 8:18 PM

 

Fiat's manufactured post October 2009 (I think that's the correct date) will have a softer clutch plate fitted thereby eliminating the judder. That applies to all models including the 3 litre.get.

 

Look out for threads by euroserve who has extensive experience with fleet vehicles and has posted authoritative advice on the subject..

 

softer clutch plate fitted thereby eliminating the judder.

 

NO IT DOES NOT! I speak from experience of having had the new softer clutch plate, along with dual mass flywheel fitted in January of this year at 12000 miles, replacing the original 2008 fitted one.

The judder is just as bad in forward and reverse. If anything, it may be slightly worse as the clutch is either "in or out" making moving off from rest a little more difficult.

 

I suggest you re-read my post as I stated all Fiat's manufactured post October 2009. Your's is a modified 2008 vehicle.

 

Leaving your difficulties aside I am unaware of any threads concerning the newer Fiat's experiencing a problem but I think most of us on here haven't the stomach for another round of threads on this topic.

 

I was merely attempting to answer the OPs question and not resurrect this issue.

I did read your post again and are still of the same conclusion. It is totally irrelevant whether the gearbox was produced in 2007 or 1st August 2011 it IS the same. ONLY the clutch material is different. MY 3.0ltr did fail after 12000 miles due to the hard material becoming highly polished and polished (or contaminated as Fiat call it) the flywheel. On Euroserves advice in a previous post, here or elsewhere, I specified a new clutch kit using the latest softer material. (January 2011)

There are still new vehicles coming onto the road with judder, not as many as previously and don't ask me why some do and some don't. Some of it will be down to the softer material, others may not post as there are sufficient replies on the subject on many forums.

ALL I stated was that the new material does not cure all. It did NOT improve mine in any way.

If this is still unclear, please inform the many what the difference is between the GEARBOX on a 2007 as opposed to a 2011 model in 3.0 ltr format.

[Mike88]

 

DJP wrote:

 

"................................There are still new vehicles coming onto the road with judder, not as many as previously and don't ask me why some do and some don't. Some of it will be down to the softer material, others may not post as there are sufficient replies on the subject on many forums."

 

 

DJP If you have evidence of the new 3 litre vehicles entering the market with clutch judder then you should provide the source of your information as this could be important to others. It seems that your problem still exists but it is the first reported one that I have come across.

 

Your understandable anger at your predicament comes through very clearly so let's have the facts to which you refer as I and other 3 litre owners will be interested in the sources of your information.

[BIFFO]

Hi to all.thought I'd add a little to the ' debate '. A few months ago I reported that I had purchased a 508 hymer. The van was manufactured in 2008...........the dreaded clutch problem arose on a trip to France.

I'm not going to bore you with a rehash of the tale but suffice to say clutch was modified and on a return trip to same site............van behaved o.k. ( backing into waste outlet,up a small incline )

 

I'm. Happy

 

 

 

(>)

[BIFFO]

Hi to all.thought I'd add a little to the ' debate '. A few months ago I reported that I had purchased a 508 hymer. The van was manufactured in 2008...........the dreaded clutch problem arose on a trip to France.

I'm not going to bore you with a rehash of the tale but suffice to say clutch was modified and on a return trip to same site............van behaved o.k. ( backing into waste outlet,up a small incline )

 

I'm. Happy

 

 

 

(>) :-D :-D :-S

[onecal]

Hi,

What about all the people that are not so happy:-(,"oh here we go again" told they don't know how to reverse etc' So with all the changes they have made or no changes, is the problem solved? I don't think so with the new ones,, maybe it never happened, they are great,,that's why so many are built on them,,,,,,,no it's not working.

Regards,

Brendan

[rupert123]

euroserv - 2011-08-02 4:12 PM

 

I give up.

 

I would ignore Brendan Nick I am convinced he does not read any posts but his own. Your own post giving complete details of the changes he has completely ignored, as usual, and goes on repeating the same old stuff. Why is this the only forum anywhere that keeps on coming up with this old stuff. The problem is cured, get over it and move on.

[Derek Uzzell]

rupert123 - 2011-08-03 12:21 AM

 

euroserv - 2011-08-02 4:12 PM

 

I give up.

 

I would ignore Brendan Nick I am convinced he does not read any posts but his own. Your own post giving complete details of the changes he has completely ignored, as usual, and goes on repeating the same old stuff. Why is this the only forum anywhere that keeps on coming up with this old stuff. The problem is cured, get over it and move on.

 

I guess it depends on how you are defining "problem" and "cure".

 

Although modifications have been made to X/250 vehicles with the smaller-capacity motors, (apparently) the only thing that has been done to 3.0litre-powered vehicles is modify the clutch. If (as has always been claimed) the problems some motorhome owners experience with 3-0litre manual-gearbox vehicles is due to an overly-high reverse-gear ratio, then that certainly ain't a 'cure'.

 

To re-quote the relevant part of Andy Stothert's September 2010 posting:

 

"3 litre 6 speed manual models

 

A Fiat employee who has been reliable throughout this debacle has stated that since mid 2009 the clutch lining spec has been changed to lessen or remove the tendency for the clutch to overheat too readily when reversed in extreme circumstances and slipping the clutch to control the speed of the vehicle. This does seem to backed up by a lack of 3 litre models which have incinerated their clutches recently."

 

Overlooking Andy's purple prose, the inference is that the clutches on 3.0litre X/250s had been seriously overheating during high-stress reversing manoeuvres, prompting a change in the clutch's friction material. Now, don't for a second think that this change would have been forced on Fiat by a few motorcaravanners complaining about clutch failure - it would have been due to much more widespread complaints from owners of commercial 3-0litre-powered X/250s suffering clutch problems. While the friction material change may well have made the clutch more heat resistant when being simultaneously slipped and stressed (eg. when the vehicle is being reversed slowly up a steep incline), it will do nothing to address the underlying problem of the overly-high reverse ratio.

 

As I said earlier in this thread:

 

"...if you have a FWD chassis with a powerful motor and a manual gearbox with a high overall reverse-gear ratio, and you build a heavy motorhome on that chassis, then there's a certain inevitability about what the consequences will be."

 

This will be no different in the future to what it is now. If you've bought a 5-tonne motorhome based on a 3.0litre-powered manual-gearbox X/250 chassis and you've had 'juddering' problems reversing it, then there's a significant risk that, if you buy a similar-specification vehicle in the future, you'll have exactly the same problem. It may be the case that the new vehicle's clutch will tolerate high-stress slipping longer, but, unless the reverse-gear ratio is lowered substantially, there'll never be a proper cure.

[euroserv]

rupert123 - 2011-08-03 12:21 AM

 

euroserv - 2011-08-02 4:12 PM

 

I give up.

 

I would ignore Brendan Nick I am convinced he does not read any posts but his own. Your own post giving complete details of the changes he has completely ignored, as usual, and goes on repeating the same old stuff. Why is this the only forum anywhere that keeps on coming up with this old stuff. The problem is cured, get over it and move on.

 

rupert123,

 

Please refrain from quoting me and then stating quite the opposite of what I said.

 

Many of the early vans either had no appreciable problem, or have been fixed but there must be a lot out there that were just dumped back at dealers and were not fixed.

 

Clearly some of the fixed vans were a success and others were less than satisfactory. The modifications to the 2.3 and 2.2 vans were incorporated into production vehicles and there have been fewer but still some reported problems. The 3.0 vehicles have never had any kind of solution offered or incorporated except for a different clutch material which may mask the problem but certainly not cure it.

 

The 2012 vans that will shortly arrive carry over the same gearboxes so will carry the same risks as before of having judder issues albeit much less common than the early vehicles.

 

I did not say it was fixed and never have.

 

I also felt that Brendan had not read mine, or any of the preceeding posts but did not feel the need to be rude. Just exasperated.

 

Just because your vehicle has not been problematic or if it was it was sorted out satisfactorily does not give you any right to marginalise anyone elses problems. Many people have suffered a great deal of anguish and expense and those that did get fixes should be damned grateful of the fuss that was made here, and the pressure that this put on Fiat et al to get things sorted. The more times this comes up the better because it demontrates that in large enough numbers we have the power to make a difference where individually we do not.

 

So go and moan to someone that is interested; and don't quote me again thanks.

 

Nick