peterjl Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Hi just back from a longish trip where van has los power 5 times in last 2 1/2 weeks. The symptoms are:- 1) always first thing in morning after rain or damp atmosphere (rain previous night 1st 2 occasions then heavy dew/condensation when back in Italy/Germany/France) - no obvious water/damp in engine bay 2) starts first time but sounds rough (we checked it was firing on all 4 cylinders), exhaust smoky, 3) difficult to get van moving even on flat because insufficient power and when moving it surges 4) the engine warning light comes om amber (4 out of 5 occassions) but goes out later (varying times and varying number of starts) 5) the first occasion fuel was a little low (under 1/4 tank but no fuel light and computer indicated 100+ miles of fuel left) but other occassions 1/2 full or more problem clears up after a few minutes then van pulls like a train as usual The first time i was 70 miles from a city with a modern garage but I did try a very smart and modern Fiat garage as soon as i could but this was Turkey and their english was ltd as is my turkish - i gather the light was out and they couldn't see a problem. There were significant gaps between the first 2 occassions and 1000+ miles before the third but then happened 3 mornings on the trot as we drove home through Italy, Germay, France. Soooo - i will now take to my local Fiat garage but wondered:- has anybody else experienced a similar problem can a techy person give me a clue so i can talk sensibly to the garage many thanks Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Sounds typical of a glow plug problem but am only guessing. Nick from Euroserve is the man to amswer this one. Was it also particularly cold on the mornings this happened and did you wait for the glow plug light to go out before starting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Sounds similar to a problem we had with our previous 2.5 JTD. The problem was traced to a faulty cable climped connection in a connector block. Unfortunately of which they were many ! Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody. Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 I had this problem a couple or three times , once when i was going up a steep hill out of a campsite , and like yours it seemed to sort itself after a short while , i suspected dodgy fuel , i ran most of it off driving home then filled up to the top with fresh fuel and it never happened again , hope this also works for you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Hi Peter Not had this problem on Motorhome, but on a previous Car. It was the Earth Strap connection to the Chassis, caked in road dirt. Took it off, cleaned the strap & the rust of the Chassis mounting point, re-assembled & all problems solved. It's worth a look at yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooty Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Hi, we have a 2010 2.3 ducato which also has these symptoms, other than the engine light coming on. Our van has been in the garage for the last 2 months, with various parts being replaced. Even though the garage tells us the problem has been sorted every time we take it away again, after a few days, the problems rears it's head again. It is usually on a damp/wet morning, the van starts first time but is very lumpy and refuses to pull away at all, we used to get loads of smoke for a few minutes (this seems to have stopped with one of the many parts fiat have replaced) and the revs won't go up smoothly, if at all, even with my foot flat to the floor. After a couple of minutes it's as if the van clears it's throat and then everything is back to normal. This cannot be because of faulty fuel as I have filled up at various places over the months. I am so sorry you are having this problem but at the same time feel a bit relieved that it's not just us, as we think our local dealer thinks we have munchausens by proxy. (lol) If you get to the bottom of it would be please let me know what it was and I will do the same, as I know how frustrating it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23322&posts=5 Just found above post and Nick suggested EGR valve sticking...worth reading the linked thread. I was actually searching for a post Nick made once about faulty earth straps but cannot remember the symptoms of such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterjl Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 Thank youveybody. Sooty - what you have sounds like my problem as does the one in the linked thread. With Euroserves usual magic i have a plan. I will take it in the previous evening and leave overnight. I can't take in until next week but i will post the outcome. As a bye the bye, i too thought it was dodgy fuel, especialy as we were in Turkey, but since it first happened we have covered over 2000 miles so lots of fuel fill ups. Regards Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Hello, In my absense I think you have all arrived at the correct conclusion. It is the EGR valve sticking due to either the faulty solenoid valve or the 'butterfly' in the throttle body being broken. In either case, removing the rubber pipe from the right hand side of the solenoid valve will stop the smoking and allow you to continue until you can get it fixed. If your vehicle is out of warranty the same part number for the throttle body is used for the 2.3 Iveco Daily. Their part is identical and usually not only costs less but is rather more available. Well done all. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooty Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Hi Nick, our van has had the EGR valve and the throttle body replaced, which has stopped the smoke but not the lumpiness, which happens every few days when first started. Could you please tell me if the solenoid valve and the butterfly would have been replaced with these parts or are they separate stand alone parts? Cheers Ant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Hello Ant, The solenoid valve is the small item that sits under the windscreen scuttle and had electrical and vacuum connections. These fail occasionally on all variants of x250 but this is also a common fault on just about every van. The 'butterfly valve that I described is part of the throttle body where the control of then exhaust gasses takes place. Early X250 2.3 and 3.0 vans (up to 2009) have had issues with the valves sticking or the mechanism breaking. There is a new, modified throttle body for the 2.3 and this seems to have cured the problem. The 3.0 was less affected and often only needs removal and cleaning. These problems with EGR are very common across all makes but seem to be worst on Ford/PSA engines. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenny Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 We had this problem and have just had to replace the part before the ERG valve (not sure what it was called but was told to try this first) and had to have a new harness kit installed cost £500. Have just done 2000 miles and had no problem with the loss of power so far but there is still some smoke and the light has come back on again but the light has been a problem since new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 back in 2008 we had similar problems with our then brand new aviano with a (spit) Fiat based chassis /engine, not long after filling up in Aberdeen we had an engine orange warning light come on the Engine was lumpy and would only travel at slow speed, we went directly to a Large Fiat dealer who had thier "Technician" connect his computer to the M/H but no Fault was found, but he suspected the EGR valve but didnt have one and it would take up to five days to get one, We ran home on a lumpy and thirsty engine, was advised it would be ok to do so, as it was still under Warranty we left it with our local (Spit) fiat dealer, who diagnosed a faulty EGR valve,which was replaced under warranty, At that time we were told we had the only replacement EGR valve in the country, we got rid of the Motorhome directly after that, never was never will be a (spit) fiat fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Corky 8 - 2011-10-31 2:17 PM back in 2008 we had similar problems with our then brand new aviano with a (spit) Fiat based chassis /engine, not long after filling up in Aberdeen we had an engine orange warning light come on the Engine was lumpy and would only travel at slow speed, we went directly to a Large Fiat dealer who had thier "Technician" connect his computer to the M/H but no Fault was found, but he suspected the EGR valve but didnt have one and it would take up to five days to get one, We ran home on a lumpy and thirsty engine, was advised it would be ok to do so, as it was still under Warranty we left it with our local (Spit) fiat dealer, who diagnosed a faulty EGR valve,which was replaced under warranty, At that time we were told we had the only replacement EGR valve in the country, we got rid of the Motorhome directly after that, never was never will be a (spit) fiat fan. Just so I get this right.... You had the problem fixed under warranty and then decided to swap it for an older Mercedes? You gained a sloppy ride, narrow chassis and poor brakes to make some sort of statement? It must be great to have principles and the money to finance them! Hope it was worth it; At least someone else picked up a bargain when they bought yours! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 euroserv - 2011-10-31 2:32 PMCorky 8 - 2011-10-31 2:17 PMback in 2008 we had similar problems with our then brand new aviano with a (spit) Fiat based chassis /engine, not long after filling up in Aberdeen we had an engine orange warning light come on the Engine was lumpy and would only travel at slow speed, we went directly to a Large Fiat dealer who had thier "Technician" connect his computer to the M/H but no Fault was found, but he suspected the EGR valve but didnt have one and it would take up to five days to get one, We ran home on a lumpy and thirsty engine, was advised it would be ok to do so, as it was still under Warranty we left it with our local (Spit) fiat dealer, who diagnosed a faulty EGR valve,which was replaced under warranty, At that time we were told we had the only replacement EGR valve in the country, we got rid of the Motorhome directly after that, never was never will be a (spit) fiat fan.Just so I get this right....You had the problem fixed under warranty and then decided to swap it for an older Mercedes? You gained a sloppy ride, narrow chassis and poor brakes to make some sort of statement?It must be great to have principles and the money to finance them!Hope it was worth it; At least someone else picked up a bargain when they bought yours!NickNick, You know doubt buy ( Spit) fiats because of the good deal you get on them compared to the other other well known Light truck makers, But no Matter what you say, I have found the ride much superior to any other of the other Motorhomes I have had, air ride seats adjustable for weight( which Fiat has those), as for the Brakes I find no problem with them, the sponginess you refer to is due as I,m sure you know to the weight compensatory units fitted on them which I find quiet comforting knowing they are there, Narrow chassis,I have never found any problem with the chassis ,I treat the vehicle as a light commercial and have no surprises from it, I dont drive it like a car nor want to, I have over fifty years driving everything from Mini,s to Antar tank carriers, never had an incident or fine , I also have a great deal of Mechanical experience, the Fact that there are more Mercedes Sprinters on the road than any other white van, must have some bearing on the Reliability factor of Mercedes , least the Standard set by Mercedes, My Car a 12 year old Vw Bora TDI, so I,m not given to changing vehicles that prove themselves worth keeping, like my Present Motorhome and as I intend to keep it for some time to come it has to be right. ? All intended in the Best possible Taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 While I agree that the deals we get are favourable it is my customer's that insist on the Ducato that keps me buying them. They, after all are the ones that drive 60,000 miles a year or more in them and have tried everything else. There are big firms out there that put badge snobbery ahead of everything else, and I am glad of that because it keeps the resale values of our used vans nice and healthy because there is no over-supply problem. There is a restriction of choice in the camper market, but there certainly is not in our industry. I choose Ducato for a number of reasons. Cost is not particularly high on my list of priorities. Customer satisfaction is. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Corky, although I own one of those (spit) Fiats I believe that Mercedes and its slightly narrower chassis will always be a premium vehicle. Fiat though have come a long way and I must admit the ride quality because of the wider chassis has improved no end. The 3ltr is definately top dog likened to a prancing horse. One of the things that every one has to accept is that all the vehicles now are loaded with electronic ecu's so you can no longer lift the bonnet and fettle the problem any more. Gone are the days of the old Gardner 150, 180 and 240 engines where a newspaper dipped in diesel, lit up and stuffed down the ventura pipe got it running on a freezing morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterjl Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 Thank you Nick I am booked in with local Fiat garage for next Monday evening so they can look at it Tuesday am. I have used this garage on 2 other occassion and they have always been very efficient and helpful. I have to say that before this m/home i always swore i would never have a Fiat based on my experience with a fiat car in the late 80's. I am now a convert - it pulls like a train and is lovely to drive. My previous m/home based on a ford had its share of mechanical problems and i have met Merc owners who also have problems. My view is that no manufacturer is perfect and they all have problems and there is not much to choose between them. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterjl Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 Hi an update The error codes for my engine were for the EGR + the 4 injectors. As, when it first happened, i had dissconnected the injectors one by one to see if it was a dodgy cylinder or wiring i was not surprised by the injector messages. The garage was unable to replicate the fault but, given the error code & the intermittent nature of the problem they agreed to replace egr. (i have a copy of the error code print outs and EGR clearly shows as the first error code recorded) Now, they told me that FIAT had modified the EGR valve replacement process to require a replacement cable harmess when replacing the EGR. I have the third year Autotrail insurance warranty but they would only pay for the valve + 1 hr labour at £40ph and not the modification saying its a wiring loom which is not covered (the small print excludes wiring looms). The upshot was i authorised Garage to do the work - and paid about 60% of total bill as 4 hours work charged. Not cheap but peace of mind. I would not wish to be caught out far from home and loads more trips planned over net few years. I will take this up with the insurance company but am not hopeful albeit i have assembled some strong arguements and i will be interested to see their response. Thank you everybody, especially Nick, for the helpful diagnosis and comments. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Hello Peter, I am glad that you have arrived at a fairly satisfactory conclusion but for the purposes of clarity and to help others that could find themselves in your position I would like to explain exactly what has been happening in EGR land, at least for 2.3 Fiats..... There was once an EGR valve or 'throttle body' that was fitted to all new 2.3 Ducato's between 2006 and mid 2008. It was a frail and uncooperative device that had a propensity for breaking. The shaft that holds the 'butterfly' EGR valve inside the body would break, and could not be repaired. These were replaced with a better unit that to my knowledge is reliable and all was well for a while. One day we ordered one and a different part was supplied instead. We were told that it had superceded the reliable one but it had a completely different electrical plug on it, so it could not be fitted. At that time our enquiries with the dealer did not reveal that there was also a new wiring loom so I contacted Iveco who were able to supply the part that we wanted with no difficulty at all. The moral of the story is that if you need a replacement EGR valve and your dealer tells you that you need a valve AND a new wiring loom, and it is you that is footing the bill.....call your nearest Iveco dealer and ask them for 504345920 and "the gaskets" and they will get you the one you need (probably cheaper than Fiat too!). It's a fiddly job though so you will probably still have to pay someone to do it, but since the new loom does nothing else that improves the vehicle in any way; why be bullied into doing what they say? Be aware also that many Fiat part numbers for engine components and the simple things like bolts and screws are common to Iveco and without exception are considerably cheaper. On an engine rebuild we can buy all of the gaskets, screws, injectors, valves, cam followers, glow plugs and pretty much anything else for less than half the price we would have to pay Fiat. Hope this helps someone at some point in the future. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Hi Nick.So is there now a third update with a new wiring loom,,,I thought myself last week they dispatched wrong part,,,Regards,Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 peterjl - 2011-11-12 5:30 PM..............................I have the third year Autotrail insurance warranty but they would only pay for the valve + 1 hr labour at £40ph and not the modification saying its a wiring loom which is not covered (the small print excludes wiring looms). ..................................I will take this up with the insurance company but am not hopeful albeit i have assembled some strong arguements and i will be interested to see their response........................... You will doubtless have thought of this, but in case it may help........... How an argument may be received will largely depend on whether the insurance is claimed to cover all parts and labour required to reinstate the vehicle back to full operating functionality, or is claimed only to cover the actual failed part/s, with a contribution to labour costs. I think, if the insurance is "silent" on its intended scope, you would be entitled to rely on the former definition. However, you'll have to do some very careful reading with a magnifying glass, and another full of whisky, to be sure! :-) In the former case above their offer would be short of what is required to put the vehicle back on the road in working order. So, they would be in breach, and now owe you the extra cost necessary to cover all parts and labour. In the latter case, however, they probably have a point, in that all that actually failed was the EGR, they have contributed to the labour costs, and the additional wiring component stems from modifications made by the manufacturer, after the insurance was taken out, that they could not at the time have foreseen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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