carolh Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 We have had a problem with the water system for some time now and it appears to be getting worse! When you open a tap, hot or cold, it is taking ages for the pump to kick in and water to flow. It seems worse when you want hot water, and doesn't seem to make any difference which tap you use! The van is all drained down at the moment, but we will be using it over Christmas and New Year, so would like to get it sorted then. Any suggestions as to what might be causing the problem and how to rectify it. Thanks in anticipation. Carol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Hi Carol - sounds possibly like the non return valve - usually in the pump on UK vans but don't know about Rapido - is not non returning anymore and the water in the pipes is draining back down through the pump and into to the tank. It may be as simple as taking the pump and or filter / non return valve out and cleaning it whilst at the same time checking all joints for security and damp patches - nothing worse than damp patches is there! It is also not unknown for joints to leak slightly enough to let air in but not water out which is another good reason to check them all especially those between the pump and all taps, shower, loo flush (if connected). Doing this is cheap - free in fact - and beats spending any money replacing anything that you may not need to replace! If you have a Shurflo pump a not unknown source of air leaks is at the filter bowl either where it screws into the pump body - but do not over tighten it as it is not very strong and could shear off - or the hose fittings to it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Agreed. If you are unfamiliar with the term, it is a valve that is included usually between the pump and the end of the draw-off pipe in the fresh water tank. Its function is to prevent the water already drawn into the systems draining back into the F/W tank. If it fails, often due to limescale, the water drains back and the pump has to re-charge and re-pressurise the system. This can take some time on the hot water side. It may be in the tank, possibly in the draw off pipe itself, or incorporated into the pump, or possibly located close to the pump. If the pump is a submersible pump, the valve may well be part of the pump. Your manual should tell you where it is located - but will it? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolh Posted December 15, 2011 Author Share Posted December 15, 2011 Thanks Tracker and Brian, no, the manual does not mention the pump!! It's easy to get at though, I will take a pic tomorrow and put it up for you to see, and then it might be a bit clearer for me. It will be Christmas before we will get the opportunity to have a go though, we are staying with my daughter and son on law, but taking the van to sleep in as it gets a bit crowded in the house, bodies everywhere LOL. And Jimmy is very handy he has fitted out his own vw, he will be a big help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy mccord Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Tracker - 2011-12-15 4:43 PM If you have a Shurflo pump a not unknown source of air leaks is at the filter bowl either where it screws into the pump body - but do not over tighten it as it is not very strong and could shear off - or the hose fittings to it! Thats interesting tracker, ive just been away in our new Adria for the first time, filled with water and open all the taps to release air, but it kept spluttering air out, looked at the pump under the hatch, it was dripping from the filter, just before the pump, took it off last W/End and it has a hairline crack through it on the side that screws in to the pump, ordered a new one which has been modified since the original, it now has a butterfly nut on the pump end, which means you can remove it without first having to remove the filter housing. Im hoping that this will cure our air in the system problem :-( Whats the issue with these pumps regarding letting air in? Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Assuming that the water-punp is of the pressure-sensitive type (which is probable with a Rapido) and that the pump is acting exactly as carolh describes - "it is taking ages for the pump to kick in and water to flow", it sounds more likely that the pump's pressure-sensing switch needs a tweak. http://www.shurflo.com/files/RV-Installation-Manuals/Classic-Series-Pumps/Premium%20Plus%20Pump%20-%20911-352_L_2088-453-144%20_444_.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 andy mccord - 2011-12-16 7:36 AM ...Whats the issue with these pumps regarding letting air in? Regards Andy Any help? http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25785&posts=9 A leak anywhere in the water-feed to a Shurflo pump (or any pump of this type) will inevitably cause spluttering at the taps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy mccord Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Thanks Derek, Im hoping that the new filter I will be fitting this week will sort it, im assuming that if its capable of leaking water out it must be sucking air in at the same time Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolh Posted December 16, 2011 Author Share Posted December 16, 2011 Another thing I just remembered that the pump does which I suppose it shouldn't is, it cycles on and off, more so when the hot water is being used. I have taken a pic and will upload it when I have resized it Carol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolh Posted December 16, 2011 Author Share Posted December 16, 2011 pic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy mccord Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Sorry Carol, for semi Hijacking your thread Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolh Posted December 16, 2011 Author Share Posted December 16, 2011 andy mccord - 2011-12-16 11:45 AM Sorry Carol, for semi Hijacking your thread Regards Andy No problem, its all information that we need, all comes in handy. at sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 carolh - 2011-12-16 11:36 AM Another thing I just remembered that the pump does which I suppose it shouldn't is, it cycles on and off, more so when the hot water is being used. I have taken a pic and will upload it when I have resized it Carol Your photo is of a common-or-garden pressure-sensitive Shurflo pump (similar to the pump in my Hobby). Difficult to advise on the cycling. Fine-tuning of the pressure-sensing switch's adjustment screw can prevent overly frequent cycling, so I suggest you try that first. You really need someone who is familiar with how these pumps normally function to physically check out what it's doing now. Assuming it's the original pump, it's now 9 years old - so there may be a wear issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Carol - sure looks like a Shurflo pump to me! I hesitate to query Derek's view but if he could just confirm that the pressure adjustment being out of kilter and not the non return valve can cause the water system to do what your's does that would be something else that I have learned today! Now what was the other thing!! Andy - any info on the topic is always relevant and what you said is very much relevant and by the way it's called contributing not hijacking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 The pressure switching is normally accomplished by a spring-loaded switch protected behind a rubber diaphragm in the pump "head". Failure to start (or stop) in response to the opening of a tap, or rapid cycling, can indeed be the result of a poorly adjusted switch. I had a 'van that always had a problem with this after being laid up for some weeks (the diaphragm appears to vary its resistance to the pressure somewhat). It is always worthwhile (if the pump head is easily accessible) trying the switch adjustment first (as it doesn't involve dismantling the pump), whereas the non-return valve is (most probably, as it looks like a Shurflo) incorporated inside the head, which needs taking apart to fix. If the problem is that the pump isn't starting as soon as the tap is opened, I would suspect the switch adjustment - if it is starting immediately on opening the tap, but there is a delay in the delivery of water, then I would suspect the non-return valve. (though nothing is absolute) Whilst there are different models of pump, the basics tend to be similar - you may find the general troubleshooting instructions here (for one type of Shurflo pump) useful (including advice on adjusting the switch). http://tinyurl.com/shurflopic Whilst this shows the construction of the head, and where the non-return valve normally would be found, there is a better view at: http://tinyurl.com/shurfloexploded (particularly if you click on the "Schematics" link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesFrance Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 To the bottom left of the picture is what I think is a plastic filter with a gauze strainer inside. This would be to prevent any rubbish in the tank passing through the pump and may be partially blocked. If so you should be able to twist the two halves apart to remove the strainer for cleaning. I have one like this on my boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Derek Uzzell - 2011-12-16 12:14 PM.......................... Assuming it's the original pump, it's now 9 years old - so there may be a wear issue. Which, with apologies for adding to the confusion, raises the possibility that the pump diaphragm is knackered. I believe it is possible to get service kits for Shurflo pumps? May be worth starting with one of these and a clean out of the strainer to see if that improves matters. Then worry about non-return valve next. If the diaphragm is 9 years old it must be at least getting near its end, so if it hasn't yet gone I'd imagine it soon will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-12-16 6:54 PM] Which, with apologies for adding to the confusion, raises the possibility that the pump diaphragm is knackered. I believe it is possible to get service kits for Shurflo pumps? May be worth starting with one of these and a clean out of the strainer to see if that improves matters. Then worry about non-return valve next. If the diaphragm is 9 years old it must be at least getting near its end, so if it hasn't yet gone I'd imagine it soon will. Sorry Brian - can't agree there. There are probably plenty of Shurflo pumps a lot older than 9 years that are working as well now as they were when new as these pumps are in my view one of the best made and reliable items in any van. Maybe I've been lucky but in all my years of motorhoming and with some pretty ancient vans to start with I've never had any problem other than loose filter bowls and dirty valves and filters. By all means strip and check the pump if you feel it needs it but I would still start with the things that cost nowt like checking for leaks and cleaning valves, filters etc. and then if anything looks suspect replace it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 JamesFrance - 2011-12-16 4:32 PM ...twist the two halves apart to remove the strainer for cleaning. Carol, To add to James' post, I clean the filter on our Shurflo pump once a year or you can notice the drop in performance. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Tracker - 2011-12-16 7:12 PM Brian Kirby - 2011-12-16 6:54 PM] Which, with apologies for adding to the confusion, raises the possibility that the pump diaphragm is knackered. I believe it is possible to get service kits for Shurflo pumps? May be worth starting with one of these and a clean out of the strainer to see if that improves matters. Then worry about non-return valve next. If the diaphragm is 9 years old it must be at least getting near its end, so if it hasn't yet gone I'd imagine it soon will. Sorry Brian - can't agree there. There are probably plenty of Shurflo pumps a lot older than 9 years that are working as well now as they were when new as these pumps are in my view one of the best made and reliable items in any van. Maybe I've been lucky but in all my years of motorhoming and with some pretty ancient vans to start with I've never had any problem other than loose filter bowls and dirty valves and filters. By all means strip and check the pump if you feel it needs it but I would still start with the things that cost nowt like checking for leaks and cleaning valves, filters etc. and then if anything looks suspect replace it? Well, in a way it doesn't matter a hoot what any of us thinks may be the problem. It will be what it will be. :-) What made me wonder about the diaphragm was looking at the Shurflo manual for our pump, there is a schematic for a typical installation and there is no mention anywhere of an NRV. Then, looking at the exploded diagram of the Shurflo innards (but without having dismantled one), it struck me that the combination of diaphragm and pump valves appears to provide an in-built non-return function. If that is the case, even a bit of trapped limescale in one of the valves might allow water to flow back. So, a bit of a guess, but does anyone know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Carol's photo shows a SHURflo Trail-King pump (most probably a Trail-King 7). These pumps have no non-return valve as such. Water and/or air can only pass through the pump when the pump is operating. When the pump is not operating it acts as a 'stop valve' rather than a single-direction 'non-return valve'. If you pressurise a disconnected SHURflo pump's inlet OR outlet, whatever (air or water) is being used for the pressurisation test will be prevented from flowing through the pump. The French/English SHURflo Installation/Operation Manual document to which Robinhood and I provided a link relates to later pumps than the Trail-King range. My SHURflo Trail-King Manual has somewhat different layout and text, but the Troubleshooting section is identical to that of the linked on-line document. Problems with a water system incorporating a SHURflo pump can be defined as a) something wrong 'upstream' of the pump (ie. between the pump's inlet and the fresh-water tank, b) something wrong with the pump itself or c) something wrong 'downstream' of the pump (ie. between the pump's outlet and the taps/shower). That's a maximum of six possible combinations. The SHURflo Manual's Troubleshooting section breaks down problems into 6 sub-sections. None of the sub-sections exactly match Carol's stated problem - "it is taking ages for the pump to kick in and water to flow" - which seems to be saying that, when a water-tap is opened, there is a long delay before the pump starts running. As I said earlier, if that's an accurate description of the problem then the logical suspect is the pump's pressure switch. On the other hand, if the pump starts as soon as a tap is opened, but it takes a long time for water to be delivered to the tap, then it's likely that the cause will lie in the Manual's sub-section headed "WILL NOT PRIME/SPUTTERS". The Troubleshooting section is pretty comprehensive and I can't think of any fault it doesn't adequately address. It should be anticipated that water-delivery characteristics will probably vary for hot and cold outlets. It's likely that the flow-rate from hot taps will be lower than the flow-rate from cold taps. On the output side of the pump the part of the water system that feeds the cold water taps is less complex and (because it excludes the water heater) has a far lower volume than the part of the water system that feeds the hot water taps. Generally this won't matter as long as the hot tap flow-rate is considered adequate but, if there's a powerful flow at cold taps but a really poor flow at hot taps, then the water heater may need de-scaling. Looking at Carol's earlier postings I note that her Rapido was purchased in 2007, so she'll know how its water-pump used to perform and know that something has changed. Best thing would be to check through the Manual's Troubleshooting section and see how closely the symptoms described there match her pump's current behaviour. If there are no symptoms of air or water leaks and no signs of obstructions (eg. a clogged strainer) and adjusting the pressure switch fails to help, then it may be necessary to strip the pump-head down. If that doesn't cure the problem, then service kits are available, but it's worth highlighting that a replacement complete pump-head assembly is nearly as expensive a a new pump. While SHURflo pumps have a good reputation for reliability and longevity, they aren't immortal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolh Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 Wow, it never fails to amaze me what a wealth of information you guys can give. As I said, the van is drained down now and we won't fill it until Friday morning before we set off to Nuneaton. While there I will do my best to contort myself (not that easy now I am getting older) and adjust the pump, and see what happens! that is all I will do as we are away at a New Year Rally and if I b***** it up we will be in a pickle. Yes we bought it back in 2007 and a fantastic van it is. We had no problem with the water works then, it has just got worse and worse and we have done nothing about it! So thanks again, and watch this space. Carol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Maybe I have missed it as read through posts quickly, but is not clear if when you open a tap the pump runs but takes a whike for water to flow, or just a while for the pump to turn on. If its the former then agree with people saying water is draining back, but then your pump would run occassionally to repressurise the system with the taps off. If it is drawing air on inlet side of pump then you will probbaly see leaking water and you will get air coming through ometimes. If it is just taking a while fot the pump to actually detect the tap is open, then the pressure switch is set wrong. I don't think the screw has much affect on the switch off pressure but more switch on pressure. I could be wrong as not dismantled a switch to see how it works, but my test showed it made no difference to the off pressure but did make a difference to the pressure it would switch on at. It could also be dirt collected around the internal parts which operate the pressure switch. It looks like attacking the switch adjustment is you best plan of action 1st. Brain is right in the one way valve action is carried out within the pump diaphram itself with 3 individual one way valves in each of the three sections of the diaphram. There is normally another one way valve in the sytem though and is on the inlet to the hot water heater. The casing for the filter shoudl lewt you see water flowing or not it system and aids diagnosing faults, it also means with a bright torch you shoudl be abe to inspect to some extent any dirt collected on gauze and if cleaning is necessary avoiding excessive dismantling of this part. Pinch up any screws gently and evenly a little at a time on any part of pump you dismantle and avoid any final over tightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Brambles - 2011-12-19 12:06 AM ...There is normally another one way valve in the sytem though and is on the inlet to the hot water heater... Gonna have to ask you to expand on that statement. It may well have been true with older-style water-systems where the water heater has its own integrated drain-point, but it's definitely not the case with modern systems incorporating Truma water heaters. Neither Truma Ultrastore boilers nor C-Series/"Combi" combination air/water heaters (Carol's Rapido probably has a C-Series appliance) have a one-way ('non-return') valve on their water inlet. All of these equipments drain through their water inlet - there is no separate integrated drain-point - so installing a one-way valve at the heater's inlet, or anywhere between the heater's inlet and the water-system's drain-valve, would prevent the appliance from being drained, either via a manual drain-valve or automatically via a temperature-sensing frost-protection drain-valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 "There is normally another one way valve in the sytem though and is on the inlet to the hot water heater... " Ok Derek, fair point. I shall change to ... There is sometimes another one way valve fitted as an intergral part of the connection to the inlet of water heaters depending in its type. edit - changed again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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