moiray Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 We are interested in purchasing a used autotrail apache 700se motorhome but on inspection found that water from the awning had ingressed around the top left door seal causing it to swell and crack the inner skin. This has been repaired. The present owner indicated this had happened due to the collection of water on the top of the awning. As the area has dried out and looks Ok can we assume this was a one off occurence. Has anyone heard of this happening before? Is this a reason not to buy it? Should we steer clear of this particular van? moira (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 moiray - 2012-01-20 11:51 AM We are interested in purchasing a used autotrail apache 700se motorhome but on inspection found that water from the awning had ingressed around the top left door seal causing it to swell and crack the inner skin. The inner skin of what, Moira? The door, or the van sidewall? This has been repaired. Repaired how? It sounds as though the water had got into the door? I don't know if these doors are wood framed, or metal framed. If wood framed, and the wood had swelled enough to crack the door lining, then unless the wood was properly dried out before the repair was made, there is the possibility it may have begun to rot. If metal framed, it would seem the metal had swelled due to corrosion which, unless it was eradicated before the repair was made, will still be present. If, on the other hand, it is the wall of the van that swelled and split the door surround, I would be concerned that the timber frame of the wall may be rotting. This should be investigated before you buy. The present owner indicated this had happened due to the collection of water on the top of the awning. This, I somewhat doubt. Usually, an awning is erected so that it falls from the van wall to its front edge, so that it sheds water away from the van. Erecting the awning flat would result in a large, and growing, puddle forming in the centre of the awning, until something gives under the weight of trapped water. If that had happened it seems possible the water ingress was due to the awning casing fixings being strained when that proverbial "something" gave. Water will then have entered the van wall until spotted, and rot must be considered a possibility. The alternative is that it was water collecting on top of the awning casing, rather than in the awning itself. There is a gap between the van wall and the casing, and a neoprene blade seal can be obtained to close this. However, the casing provides local shelter to the van wall, so less, rather than more, water will run down the wall above the door in rain. So, either way the explanation offered sounds to me like "flannel", and one has then to ask one's self why flannel in lieu of the simple truth. As the area has dried out and looks Ok can we assume this was a one off occurence. No, not until the van has stood in the open during wet weather, followed by a thorough damp check. Has anyone heard of this happening before? Is this a reason not to buy it? Should we steer clear of this particular van? moira (?) If you "google" Autotrail Apache 700SE, you will get a couple of U-Tube snips of leakage problems with one of these vans. It is possible those were a one off, but there may have been quality control a problem that affected more than one van. Impossible to say. However, Autotrials generally have a good reputation for quality. If this van is being sold privately, I think it would be wise to take it to an Autotrail dealer for investigation. In any case, based on what you have said, I'd get a thorough damp check carried out before buying. This is pretty much essential with any used van. I'm uneasy about damage you could detect that is stated to have been repaired, because if properly repaired, you should never have been able to see the damage! :-) However, if the damage is limited to just the door, and all else is dry and in good order, it should be possible to get the door lining replaced, or even the entire door. The cost of this should be deductible from the price of the van and with that done, you should then have a good and sound van. If the van is being sold by an Autotrail dealer, ask why they haven't repaired the damage properly by replacing either the door or the lining. Since at least the repair is still (presumably) visible, they should. That they haven't indicates to me that they haven't investigated the full extent, and cause, of the original swelling. If not an Autotrail dealer, I'd locate the nearest one to where the van is for sale, and insist it goes there for investigation and a full damp check. If they refuse, I'd walk away. If they agree, you may have to negotiate over who bears, and to what extent, the cost of repair to your, and not their, satisfaction. If the problem was with damp in the the wall and not the door, I would be uninclined to buy unless the whole door and frame is removed so that proper examination of the wall framing is possible. This should only be undertaken, IMO, by an Autotrail dealer with an adequately equipped workshop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 moiray - 2012-01-20 11:51 AM We are interested in purchasing a used autotrail apache 700se motorhome but on inspection found that water from the awning had ingressed around the top left door seal causing it to swell and crack the inner skin. This has been repaired. The present owner indicated this had happened due to the collection of water on the top of the awning. As the area has dried out and looks Ok can we assume this was a one off occurence. Has anyone heard of this happening before? Is this a reason not to buy it? Should we steer clear of this particular van? moira (?) I think BK has covered it fully above, but Why would you want to take the chance is more the question, or have the potential hassle. It is almost impossible to see what damage a leak would have done internally. Arm yourself with a good damp test meter and keep looking would be my advice, and sad but true to say it, but don't accept anyone or their explanations at face value. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 how old is the van? If your heart is set on it, pay out for a professional damp test to avoid any major problems, Like Brian says if owner does not agree with this walk away! *-) I PX'd my coachbuilt last year, it was 4 years old and turned out it was riddled with damp. Luckily still covered by Eura Mobil warranty so deal still went ahead :-) In the middle of worse depression since the 30's (some say this is worse) and middle of winter as well..Surely must be the perfect time to pick up a real bargain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moiray Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Hi Brian Thanks very much for your reply to my query it has been of great help. The water damage is to the wall of the motorhome above the door. As it is a private sale we have emailed the gentleman selling raising your points. He had previously agreed to get it serviced with habitation check prior to sale and we have emphasised that that area be checked with a written assurance that it is sound. We will then decide whether to take the leap!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 :D :D :D :D RESULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! good on ya . Hey hey hey becareful out there ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Hi moiray If possible ask the vendor to enable you to witness the Damp Test when it has it's service. An independant validation is much preferable to a piece of paper that anyone could produce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 moiray - 2012-01-31 2:59 PM Hi Brian Thanks very much for your reply to my query it has been of great help. The water damage is to the wall of the motorhome above the door. As it is a private sale we have emailed the gentleman selling raising your points. He had previously agreed to get it serviced with habitation check prior to sale and we have emphasised that that area be checked with a written assurance that it is sound. We will then decide whether to take the leap!! If the damage is to the wall above the door frame, water has to have penetrated into the wall itself to have caused it. This could, for example, be because the joint between wall and roof was leaking or, since you mention an awning, because one of the awning fixings had not been sealed properly. It could equally be because the roof edge has been damaged, or for some other reason: leak tracing is a great sport! However, I am very sceptical of the reason given by the present owner as to how it happened. Water should not get into the van wall merely because of a build-up on the awning: something else came into play for the water to penetrate as it seems it did. It seems the wall must have got very wet, over a period of time, to have caused visible damage as you describe, and I would be very concerned that the timber (I assume timber, as it is the commonest wall framing) framework concealed within the wall may therefore be rotting, or already rotten. Of course, it is equally possible that all that happened is that the wood got wet, swelled, caused the damage, the leak was cured, the wood dried out and shrank back, and the area subsequently reinstated. However, my point, simply put, is that it is an unknown, and should be properly investigated, so that the presence of rot can be proved or otherwise. The problem with these walls is that once damp penetrates it takes a long time to dry out, because the external skin is a perfect barrier to humidity, so that water can only dry out to the inside, and the inner surfaces are often printed foil, or vinyl, coated, which although not such an effective barrier as the external skin, still resist the passage of humidity. The drying process is thus very slow, with the moisture remaining trapped in the wall sandwich, within which it creates a humid environment, ideal for any trapped rot spores to germinate. I'm not trying to frighten you off, but I do think this should be properly investigated as well as damp checked, because you really, really, do not want to buy a van with rotting, or rotten, framing in the wall. It can be repaired, but it is a high labour content job, with a correspondingly high cost! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Moira, The awning on an Auto-trail is of the 'fully recessed' variety and as such is mounted in a fibreglass 'box' which is recessed through the outer wall and insulation and then mounted to the inner wall skin. The seal around the 'box' to the MH outer wall will almost certainly be the source of the leak as you say the leak is above the door and water rarely travels uphill! The leak is unlikely (but not impossible) to be the roof to wall join as the roof overlaps the outer wall and so should through water off. I would also suggest you look at the mountings for the awning inside the MH to see if there are any other signs of water ingress. These can be found in the lockers behind white plastic covers and there are usually three with the centre one possibly being located behind the control panel above the door. I would ask for documented evidence of what has been repaired and how and if you have any doubts then walk away as there will always be another. If you have any further questions please ask. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly58 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 One other thing to consider is what will be the outcome in the future when you may wish to sell / trade the motorhome to get a newer one you may have a motorhome no one will touch with a barge pole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Having had a caravan that suffered with damp that I repaired myself, you would not believe how far water can capillary inside a wall and how much damage it can do. If damp is evident it must have been leaking for a long time, it can be months to years before damp/water ingress shows itself to the outside world. Any evidence of damp in a van I would just walk away from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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