campervanista Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Removing saddle for security reasons? I always do this on my pushbike for lent anyway!! :-D Regards to all. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-03-14 10:16 AM Pretty ordinary and not very refined Chinese hub motor bikes...things have moved on considerably and far better and lighter bikes around..... We have a couple of Freego bikes. They have magnesium light frames, quality disc brakes, and gear shift and brakes found on up market trail bikes, plus some other useful bits n pieces in the price, so not to sure where the Judge has got his information. The Panasonic crank drive system (not used on the Freego) is well thought out and works well, but as the chain ages, you could be stuck if the chain breaks. The system also puts quite a load on the chain and gear cogs which can wear quite quickly in sandy areas At least with a hub drive, you can keep pedaling home. Yer pays yer money and takes yer choice ! One useful addition, is to remove the quick clip saddle post and replace it with a suspension type post. We found that having the drive hub and saddle bags on the rear could make the ride harsh on bumpy roads. If you web search "Suspension Saddle Post" you will find about £20 will find a good one, to save you from a bruised bottom ;-) Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruisecontrol Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Totally agree! It is regrettable that what I thought was a helpful comment induced such a negative comment. As said, I did a lot of research into Ebikes, you don't spend £1000 on a bike lightly. So my assessment included asking various owners and trialing them at Bonterra Park last year - then repeating the exercise this year at various bike shops and shows. Many were poorly made and/or overpriced. In terms of weight I'd add the bikes come in at 21kg (minus battery), which is about the norm for a full size bike. Perhaps my response of "Oh dear" was misconstrued - I certainly wasn't agreeing with his comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 You come on here stating that you have done all the research and comparisons as if fact, and have ended up with a cheap generic Chinese hub motored bike, that are quite frankly agricultural compared to better bikes on the market. That you are happy with your choice all well and good. But I dont want anyone on here getting the impression that these bikes are anything special because they are far from it. 25kg with battery is actually heavy these days with many bikes now around 20kg with battery. The better makes are produced in Switzerland, Austria and Germany and tend to use refined and near silent centre/crank drive systems from Panasonic, Bosch, MPF. These drive through the gears and will climb any hill, surely the main reason one buys an e bike is to be able to climb hills comfortably... No noisy motor in wheel or spokes breaking to worry about, and I have had 2 wheel rebuilds with hub motor bikes If you want a motor in wheel there are near silent more powerful 60 Nm motors from the likes BioniX, Go-Swiss, etc... A UK company Wisper produce hub motor bikes, and have moved production from China to Germany8-) where the bikes are now built by a company that also produces high end e bikes... Makes I personally like include KTM, AVE, Grace, Haibike, Swiss Flyer http://www.electricbikeshed.co.uk/electric-bike-news/bosch-electric-bike-drive-system.html http://www.mpfdrive.com/en as for seat posts, unless you spend a considerable amount cheap suspension posts not worth having..they also play havoc with your knees. A seat like the specialized expedition may be better, or if youi want suspension Cane Creek very good happy e cycling :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruisecontrol Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 How very rude! Not worthy of a reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 I don't think Eddie was rude just stating facts a bit blunt maybe. £1000 is the price for a mid range standard bike I would expect to pay a lot more for an electric one. As for weight 21 kgs is ridiculously heavy for just a bike, off road bikes normally come in around 12 - 15 kgs & road bikes a few kgs less, even cheap say under £400 bikes I would still expect to be under 17kgs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 lennyhb - 2013-03-15 1:28 PM I don't think Eddie was rude just stating facts a bit blunt maybe. £1000 is the price for a mid range standard bike I would expect to pay a lot more for an electric one. As for weight 21 kgs is ridiculously heavy for just a bike, off road bikes normally come in around 12 - 15 kgs & road bikes a few kgs less, even cheap say under £400 bikes I would still expect to be under 17kgs. Well he was but nothing new their then. Any fairly new member of the forum may not have come across Eddie before so be aware if you dare to disagree with him or question anything he has bought then you will not got a well reasoned argument just abuse. Why should Eddie's 'facts' be any more reasoned than Gerry's. I know nothing about e bikes and care less but if the main thing about them is weight I would find it strange. Surely the whole point of a bike with a motor is the rider is to unfit to ride up hills so a couple of extra kilo's will make little differance, just diet a bit (lol) . I have a bike that cost new under £400 and weighs 14kg so suspect their is more to the price than weight, as for £1000 being mid range this is a joke surely. If you require some help on hills buy a 50cc moped, cheaper and better, my 125cc scooter's starter motor is more powerfull than an e bike. Just my opinion before anyone gets upset. I like cycling still but find the whole e bike thing a little strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Sorry double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Typical of you H to stick you nose in just to have a dig and you are about as miserable as the country you live in. Seems you know about as much about cycling /e cycling as you do about motorhomes which is sod all..... As Lenny said, why this chap took what I said as a personal attack is patently absurd. As I said I hope he is happy with his choice, but dont go telling me that due diligience has been carried out and a forensic examination of the facts, and a cheap chinese bike the result...please do me a favour!lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Just had to replace the battery pack on the wifes leccy bike. Same construction as those that AS bikes sell but from the other company also at shows. Just under 2 years and perhaps the wife left the bike with the key turned ON for a couple of months as she could not ride with a broken wrist. But £300 hurts! C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 If your interested in e bikes last place to buy one is a motorhome show, as if you read this thread you will see that you are prevented from seeing other makes, so impossible to make an informed decision important to look after batteries. Cheap bikes have cheap cells so don't last at long. Most decent bikes have a 2 year battery warranty and should last at least 3 years When you get a new bike you should carry out conditioning charges, which means running bike till battery flat 2 or 3 times.this is to set the battery BMS. And more importantly if your not using the bike for long periods crucial that you give battery a charge occasionally.....also in normal use don't run till near flat before you charge, top up charges a better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteCheyenneMan Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-03-16 8:27 AMIf your interested in e bikes last place to buy one is a motorhome show, as if you read this thread you will see that you are prevented from seeing other makes, so impossible to make an informed decisionimportant to look after batteries. Cheap bikes have cheap cells so don't last at long. Most decent bikes have a 2 year battery warranty and should last at least 3 years When you get a new bike you should carry out conditioning charges, which means running bike till battery flat 2 or 3 times.this is to set the battery BMS. And more importantly if your not using the bike for long periods crucial that you give battery a charge occasionally.....also in normal use don't run till near flat before you charge, top up charges a better You need to draw a distinction between those who want a serious electric bike for serious cycling and those who simply want a capable bike with a good range. Secondly you need to draw a distinction between those with lots of money to spend on a bike and those with less. I'm sure that you're correct about what's best for you, but no solution is universally acceptable/practical. On the battery issue, I thought that Lithium Ion batteries did not suffer from memory loss and could be re-charged at any time from new? It's certainly going to be difficult flattening a battery several times unless you keep riding in circles around the house? Of course there's nothing wrong with buying from an exhibition if you've already done your research and know what you want. The point about AS bikes is that they do what they say on the tin and have the most amazing after sales service.............wherever you live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I really dont care what people buy but its pretty obvious that better bikes available away from the shows, and as they are operating a closed shop and preventing you seeing the competition...you might ask yourself why lol Also its possible to pick up end of season bargains/sales items, so possible to get a Panasonic/Bosch powered bikes for around same price as some of the better Chinese bikes. Battery care is fundamental. its the most costly and main component of a bike and if you want to get value from it, essential to look after it. examples of battery care. this is not a recommendation of companies http://www.electricbikeworld.co.uk/home/contact-us/electric-bike-battery-care.php http://www.juicybike.co.uk/lithiumcare.asp run down on e bikes http://www.electricbikemag.co.uk/advice.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteCheyenneMan Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I need to read these again Judge, but interesting links. Thank you! So I was correct about there being no memory issue with Lithium batteries but you were correct about discharging them first time! It's probable that my cheaper bike/battery doesn't have BMC, but it looks as though I can still fully discharge it, so long as I re-charge it straight away. I paid less, or rather had more extras thrown in, by buying my AS bike at Excel. Plus it's a folding bike and thus saves me the cost of a rack on the back of the MH. It's for pootling to the shop and for exercising dodgy knees (too much football in my youth!) rather than serious cycling. So for me it's ideal.As I understand it, perhaps because they have such a following on several MH Forums, AS Bikes do enough business to take stands at quite a number of shows. I would assume that other makers don't consider it worth their while. You might commit many thousands at a show to buy a MH (I wouldn't because I want my dealer to be local if I have any post sale problems) but spending a lot on a bike is much less likely. "A source close to exhibition organisers" tells me that they will take anybody's money for a stand, but Bike manufacturers are not interested. I'm going back to re-read your links now ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
william1 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Again no mention of the Electric Bike on Tesco Direct - £400 - and excellent reviews on web site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Well, Leccy bike is folding jobbie made out of aluminum, so its light. Not quite like Tesco. Did autopsy on the dead battery today. The failed bit was not the battery but a pair of printed circuit boards stuck on the end of the battery. So I by-passed this and its charged up just fine. I need to get enough courage to fit it back on the bike as I believe the bit of electronics which has wires connected across every series connected set of cells terminates charge when the cell with the highest voltage gets to 4.2 volts and does something similar during discharge when the cell with the lowest voltage gets to whatever. But I am sure it will work OK without any of these bits if its used sparingly as it was before. Think I have spent £300 unnecessarily. Life expectancy is 1000 cycles and I guess the wife,s has done little more than 100 part discharges over 2 years. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonytoes Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 The pedelecs site used to be quite useful but now seems to be full of dealers trying to sell their wares and a few "owners" who seem to advocate their own "purchases" over all others - the advice there is now very skewed in my opinion. Shame because it used to have a good mix of friendly folk who gave good, unbiased advice. Now just seems full of kudos and tonaro "owners" who seem to have nothing else to do other than post about their own bikes. But if you want to read the opinions of a few self-appointed experts who push only their own brand of bike above all others that's the place to look. Wisper and Juicy stand out for me as the decent Chinese brands that offer good quality and service. Stay well clear of the market traders offering cheap bikes with no dealer network. You will need support at some time in the future. If you can afford the luxury of a German bike then go for it, but expect to pay a premium of £500 or more. Electric Bike Magazine is much more honest and gives good advice. There is also AtoB which is biased towards German brands. Both have on-line sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 spot on Tony! pedelec gone downhill! and a you say dominated by manufacturers, some who join under other identity's to lie and promote (have been caught out) The site is more a menagerie then serous discussion forum. Also the widespread promotion of illegal bikes is a disgrace.. I now prefer to visit the German pedelec site (using auto translator) as they discuss the kind of bikes I'm interested in and its a polite no nonsense site and better for it..They also discuss the cheaper end as well, and its a real good place to find links to offers and bargains. Recently a Kalkhoff Panasonic for £1000 and a Bosch for £1100 (half price)she was fine when away on 6 week trip last summer but when she returned it was difficult for her not having a routine.. Like I said earlier Wisper a favorite of mine as well, we have had 3 of them...., I still have a DaaHub kit on a very nice lightweight specialized bike. They have now moved production to Germany so should be far better quality, but the support has always been good and this is how they built a good reputation. But e cycling has now moved on and Im personally more interested in the better bikes that are now around.... if you want to buy on a whim..so be it. But a little research and a visit to a bike show or couple of decent e bike shops and then after a few test rides and a few hills you will have a much better idea, and be able to make an informed decision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 If only someone had told me sooner. We have two of the cheap and nasty Chinese jobs, his and hers, which were alright for the first season, but aren't quite reliable any more. Free to anyone who can collect from Berkshire. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonytoes Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Archiesgrandad - 2013-03-17 4:09 PM If only someone had told me sooner. We have two of the cheap and nasty Chinese jobs, his and hers, which were alright for the first season, but aren't quite reliable any more. Free to anyone who can collect from Berkshire. AGD What make AGD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Cannot disagree with the Judges' and tonytoes' remarks above. Haggle over prices there is quite a markup so the prices can drop quite bit. Try fully before you buy. For information rather than trying to make a point :-D about the brand Freego offered a hire before you buy deal where the hire price was deducted from the price of the bike. I said that we should try for free, but we were told that the bikes would be insured so there would be no loss to us if there was an accident. ,We could have them for a day, and if we ran the batteries out, the shop would come out and pick us up. For the price of the hire, it was good value. The dealer was a Mobility Shop that specialized in wheel chairs. My take was that they were more likely to understand batteries, gearing, motors and electronic controls than the local bike shops whom told us they they would "get in" a couple of bikes to try. A final thought, the idea of ebikes is catching on, as is the technology offered with them. Whatever you buy will be superseded quickly. So it is difficult to judge what is the current market leader within your price range. Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Had a quick look before I left home this morning, no manufacturers name, just a sticker showing" JL Liesure" or something similar. The his is blue with the battery behind the seat pillar, the hers is silver with the battery on the down tube. Both have 20" alloy wheels. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonytoes Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 tonyishuk - 2013-03-19 3:57 PM Cannot disagree with the Judges' and tonytoes' remarks above. Haggle over prices there is quite a markup so the prices can drop quite bit. Try fully before you buy. For information rather than trying to make a point :-D about the brand Freego offered a hire before you buy deal where the hire price was deducted from the price of the bike. I said that we should try for free, but we were told that the bikes would be insured so there would be no loss to us if there was an accident. ,We could have them for a day, and if we ran the batteries out, the shop would come out and pick us up. For the price of the hire, it was good value. The dealer was a Mobility Shop that specialized in wheel chairs. My take was that they were more likely to understand batteries, gearing, motors and electronic controls than the local bike shops whom told us they they would "get in" a couple of bikes to try. A final thought, the idea of ebikes is catching on, as is the technology offered with them. Whatever you buy will be superseded quickly. So it is difficult to judge what is the current market leader within your price range. Rgds Yes, Freego are also on my list of bikes to try and have some good reviews on pedelecs, though they don't seem represented by any support there. I do know that Juicy offer a free test ride in Buxton and seem happy to let riders time to explore locally. I think I will give both ofthose a go and see if one shines over the other. Both are in my price range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 these generic Chinese hub motor bikes are very basic and similar and they do go wrong. This why decent support important. Motors in wheels are unrealiable on cheaper bikes, spokes break, cabling wiring problems etc... Yo also get wiring problems because there are so many connections between the different components: motor, battery, controller, brake leavers..lots to go wrong. Plus they are not as nice to ride as they are heavier, cheap gearsets and suspension forks plus are noisier. Power is either on or off.. pretty basic stuff I'm afraid the more expensive Panasonic and Bosch powered bikes are an entirely different experience and I urge all to at least try before making your mind up: They have a sealed for life centre drive/crank drive unit controlled by a Torque Sensor. the weight is down low in centre so bike better balance. Its more like normal cycling, no noise and as you pedal you get a bionic style of assistance. and as they drive through the gear they are far better hill climbers... Also no long cable runs or controllers or brake cutouts to worry about, no motors in wheels so no reliability issues there and tyre changing easy Its all about choice, but hopefully informed choice. any decent e bike shop will have both styles.... :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 tonytoes - 2013-03-20 2:00 PM Yes, Freego are also on my list of bikes to try and have some good reviews on pedelecs, though they don't seem represented by any support there. I do know that Juicy offer a free test ride in Buxton and seem happy to let riders time to explore locally. I think I will give both ofthose a go and see if one shines over the other. Both are in my price range. I know this will look like yet another attempt to push you up-market (for which I apologise), but I thought it worth adding to the debate: ...at the price the Eagle is now, and given the latest reductions on Kalkhoff bikes from the importer, then I'd suggest you might also consider looking at something like: http://www.50cycles.com/electric-bikes/activity/kalkhoff_agattu_c8_impulse I compared the build quality and ride of a number of bikes, including the Freego and Whisper (the latter as a result of glowing reviews), and the Kalkhoff was significantly better built, and a much nicer ride experience, than either. Part of the latter was the crank-drive rather than hub-drive arrangement, which felt much more "in control". The one linked to is the one my wife rides (I considered the step-thru myself, but ended up with the gents-framed equivalent, which is slightly more expensive). They aren't the lightest of e-bikes but are fully-equipped and very strongly built using top-quality components, and can be ridden for good distances on the flat without assistance, so aren't too heavy. I wanted a couple of bikes that would give two longish-range rides without recharge (a weekend away without hook-up), so a big battery was crucial, and I can vouch that the quoted range on these (75 miles) is realistic in anything but the most extreme conditions (and I am no lightweight!). (In fact, conditioning the batteries by initially running them down twice was somewhat of a challenge, with nearly 90 miles on one such depletion, on the flatter of our routes). Given that I store the bikes in the motorhome garage, having hub gears rather than derailleur (which I would normally favour) also keeps things a bit cleaner (given the chain is guarded). 50 Cycles will do test rides by arrangement at either of their sites (I also got a good discount when I bought, but the prices are now somewhat keener).. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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