bolero boy Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Robin, my wife's Raleigh Leeds Tour built on the same production line as Kalkhoff with very similar components (battery, Panasonic crank-drive, hub gears etc) along with a similar sturdy frame. She also gets amazing mileage from a single charge, provided there are not prolonged hill climbs. I keep toying with the idea, I currently have a Claud Butler hybrid which i like and does me for time being. However, i am not precluding the change to electric power in the (near-ish....) future and crank-drive is definitely the way to go, having tried hub driven units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 The more intuitive and powerful Bosch powered bikes, are lighter. The 2 we have had are 21 and 19 kg each. They also have a fast charge. 80% in 1.5 hrs. 100% in 2.5. when others can take 8 hrs. Plus they dont look like a granny cruiser :-D Have seen Panasonic and Bosch bikes at around £1100 pounds in sales, so you dont have spend a fortune if willing to shop around and import.... one here for £950 + postage http://www.ebay.de/itm/Kalkhoff-Agattu-ADAC-Edition-mit-Topausstattung-/171003204097?pt=Sport_Radsport_Fahrr%C3%A4der&var=&hash=item27d095d201 a sahel for £1200 http://www.ebay.de/itm/Neues-Kalkhoff-Sahel-26-Pedelec-E-Bike-Elektrofahrrrad-/111028567022?pt=Sport_Radsport_Fahrr%C3%A4der&hash=item19d9d17bee not many bargain Bosch models about now as to popular and most 2012 models gone :-S still plenty at around the £1500 mark... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-03-20 3:24 PM The more intuitive and powerful Bosch powered bikes, are lighter. The 2 we have had are 21 and 19 kg each. ....not quite sure I understand this, if this was in response to any of the immediately preceding posts. AFAIK to be road-legal, the power has to be a maximum of 250W (and this appears currently to be debatable in the UK). The immediately preceding examples all have a 250W motor. Can't say I understand the context of intuitive, either - the Kalkhoff Impulse Drive on mine is little different from the Bosch or Panasonic, and is compared in reviews favourably against both. I was prepared to take a slight penalty in weight to get a much greater assisted range, which has proved to be eminently possible, and therefore rather balances the argument in favour of the extra weight (at least for my pattern of use). JudgeMental - 2013-03-20 3:24 PM They also have a fast charge. 80% in 1.5 hrs. 100% in 2.5. when others can take 8 hrs. ....we've discussed this before as follows (pasted from previous thread); ......It all sounds like a load of bos©h to me! How long it takes to recharge depends very much on the capacity (and, by association the range). Most of the Bosch-powered bikes I've seen have half the battery capacity of mine (hence, roughly half the range and half the charging time, all other things being equal) As long as it recharges (partially or fully) in the time I'm not riding it, I'm quite happy. Alternatively, if I can't charge it (due to being sans hook-up), the greater the capacity the better. Horses (or bikes )for courses M'Lud. JudgeMental - 2013-03-20 3:24 PM Plus they dont look like a granny cruiser :-D Have seen Panasonic and Bosch bikes at around £1100 pounds in sales, so you dont have spend a fortune if willing to shop around and import.... one here for £950 + postage http://www.ebay.de/itm/Kalkhoff-Agattu-ADAC-Edition-mit-Topausstattung-/171003204097?pt=Sport_Radsport_Fahrr%C3%A4der&var=&hash=item27d095d201 a sahel for £1200 http://www.ebay.de/itm/Neues-Kalkhoff-Sahel-26-Pedelec-E-Bike-Elektrofahrrrad-/111028567022?pt=Sport_Radsport_Fahrr%C3%A4der&hash=item19d9d17bee not many bargain Bosch models about now as to popular and most 2012 models gone :-S still plenty at around the £1500 mark... ....but, of course, most people don't want to spend that sort of money on a bike without having a look-see and a ride. This is rather difficult when buying an untried model from Germany via eBay. The first is Panasonic, but hub, not the preferred crank drive, the second is a 2010 model, well down in spec from the current Sahel models (which are specified more akin to the link I posted). Both have pretty small batteries, which may suit some, but certainly wouldn't suit me. :-S The discussions are useful, but we all have different requirements. Hopefully airing opinions will help people buy something which suits their budget, meets their requirements, and with which they will be happy. Given the infinite variables which govern these three things, however, I'd be wary of trying to choose a bike for someone else. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 bolero boy - 2013-03-20 3:12 PM Robin, my wife's Raleigh Leeds Tour built on the same production line as Kalkhoff with very similar components (battery, Panasonic crank-drive, hub gears etc) along with a similar sturdy frame. She also gets amazing mileage from a single charge, provided there are not prolonged hill climbs. I keep toying with the idea, I currently have a Claud Butler hybrid which i like and does me for time being. However, i am not precluding the change to electric power in the (near-ish....) future and crank-drive is definitely the way to go, having tried hub driven units. Yes, I knew the Raleigh e-bikes were badge-engineered Kalkhoffs. We've both used either hybrids or Mountain bikes for years, and we like to do decent mileage on a day out (30 miles or more). Moving to e-bikes simply overcomes any doubts about doing routes with a good amount of climbing, or worrying about strong headwinds (especially on the way back ;-) ) We've certainly done even more cycling since we bought them. The bikes we have are fitted with Kalkhoff's own impulse (crank) drive units, and the hill climbing ability is amazing. Certainly, the battery gets used somewhat more quickly on an unrelenting climb, but since we mainly do circular or out-and-back routes, things often tend to even out. So, 13 miles or so uphill from Pateley Bridge to Angram Reservoir saw the power drop a bit faster than normal, but coming back was all downhill, so the 26 mile round trip only cost us about a third of a battery charge. As we were sans-hook-up, plenty of power to have a second day out that weekend. Works for me! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 you really do talk garbage, completely wrong about charging like I said all the end of season bargain 2012 models gone..I just posted quickly before I got times out. you can try the bikes in the UK at a decent bike shop and ask them to price match if they cant pay £40 postage and have delivered.. That you need a big battery when most dont all well and good, and I have tried to reason with you before about the efficiency of Bosch system and its like talking to a plank. Most who try a bosch powered bike prefer the system, and that is why in a matter of 2 year well over 40 manufacturers have adopted it...The 36 Volt Panasonic is strong but very expensive, but the old Daum crank drive rebadged as the impulse when derby bough it is not.... FYI Derby are in fact the parent company and where british until sold to Germans http://www.derby-cycle.com/en.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterjl Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Hi Last year my wife needed at ebike as she has knee problems. Looked at loads of different bikes but all had issues I was unhappy with ie, too heavy, too long(some frames are very long), too expensive, battery life/range, little or no frame size range, poor quality gear. Eventually purchased a new specialised mountain bike and added a motor from AlienOcean. Brilliant and total cost less than pounds1000! It was a bit fiddly to fit controls but the wiring was easy. One part slightly damaged in transit and replaced without quibble. Later controller was damaged when my wife went over the handlebars in Germany but part replaced quickly for minimal cost. Overall very pleased with service and quality. Weight without battery about 18 kilos. It's worth considering. You get the frame size correct, the gears you want, the brakes you want eg hydraulic discs, then just ad motor. It did want the DaaHub motor but they were not importing them last year. Good luck Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 I have a DaaHub powered bike as well and its great fitted to a top class specialized bike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Which are the key brands with the Bosch motor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 bolero boy - 2013-03-20 5:24 PM Which are the key brands with the Bosch motor? in fact there must be approaching 100 models now. I'm not telling anyone what to buy, but just to try one. They also offer a 400 Ah battery for 2013. I guess AVE, Haibike, KTM, Koga, Merida , Grace, Krideler, scott, Storck, Reise & Muller are a few... http://www.bosch-ebike.de/en/customer_brands/marktpraesenz.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-03-20 5:09 PM That you need a big battery when most dont all well and good, and I have tried to reason with you before about the efficiency of Bosch system and its like talking to a plank. I really struggle to understand why many people take offence at your posting style. ;-) I would hesitate to make a judgement on what most people do or don't need, but for anyone spending time "off-grid" as motorhomers often do, then the topic of battery capacity is pretty relevant for debate, and should make people think. I certainly DO want a large capacity battery, and have found it of great use. Your post above didn't mention efficiency, simply power and "intuitiveness". For me, efficiency manifests itself in the ability to ride a decent distance on a single charge, and climb the hills I want to, without any concern. I have a bike that does that admirably, so it is efficient enough for me. "Intuitiveness" in this context, escapes me. JudgeMental - 2013-03-20 5:09 PM Most who try a bosch powered bike prefer the system, and that is why in a matter of 2 year well over 40 manufacturers have adopted it...The 36 Volt Panasonic is strong but very expensive, but the old Daum crank drive rebadged as the impulse when derby bough it is not.... .....my understanding, after reading a good few reviews, is that the Bosch system is rather more "marmite" in its reception. ...and whilst I believe that Derby Cycle have a financial interest in Daum, I also thought that the Impulse Drive was a long-term in-house Kalkhoff development. Whatever, it works for me, and the reviews I read before buying, and the extended test-ride clinched it. You obviously feel differently, which aligns with my comment about not choosing a bike for others. JudgeMental - 2013-03-20 5:09 PM FYI Derby are in fact the parent company and where british until sold i to Germans http://www.derby-cycle.com/en.html ....having some interest in Nottingham matters (;-)), and understanding some of Raleigh's history, I think you'll find that's not quite true, it being much more complicated than that (as borne out by the history subpage on the link you've posted). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-03-20 5:09 PM you really do talk garbage, completely wrong about charging ......NOW, (after the above edit) I'm beginning to understand why people take offence at your posting style. *-) ......would you like to elucidate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 I dont have to look I know very well about dutch Acell group takeover. Derby still own, Rixe, Kalkhoff, univega and Focus...Why would I want to complicate matters. Have been listening to prejudiced people like you for years, now a good few of them riding bosch.. Sounds like you have been to a kalkhoff sales seminar... A friend of mine had up until 2 months ago an S class high speed Kalkhoff. Tried a legal 250 watt Bosch powered full suspension Haibike and immediately ordered one and put the S class on ebay..He loves it .......fact not fiction. unlike you I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, your just justifying your choice. While I am saying shop around, dont listen to dealers BS, and above all try before you buy, Then buy a bike that is right for you Oh! by the way buying a new bike this year and it will probably me an MPF powered crank drive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 JudgeMental - 2013-03-20 7:40 PM Have been listening to prejudiced people like you for years, now a good few of them riding bosch.. Sounds like you have been to a kalkhoff sales seminar... .. .. .. unlike you I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, your just justifying your choice .. ....aah, the native charm shines through. ;-) I was actually referring to the fact that Derby Cycle despite a convoluted history, has never been an English company as you averred. As regards my bike, I'm simply happy with it (for my purposes) and with the support I've had. If I sound as much like a salesman for Kalkhoff as you do for Bosch, then I sincerely apologise to all readers. ;-) I was only looking for a bit of balance. I've little doubt that your friend likes his new bike, and sings its praises - it's rather human nature to praise one's expensive purchases - though for my purposes a full-suspension mountain e-bike would be a questionable combination. (I suspect that he might have had similar praise for his previous bike after buying it). Despite this, there are enough criticisms of all the systems, including Bosch, to lead one to believe that there is no clear, all-round, best performer. You pays your money........... If you do buy a new bike, I hope you're happy with it, and no doubt it will be the bestest bike ever. How many is it you've had now, and in what period? I like mine enough to want to keep it for a good few years more yet. ;-) BTW, I still don't see what was garbage in my description of charging, and you haven't bothered to tell me. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonytoes Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Well, anyway this week end I'm off to try a wisper, storck, kalkoff, freego, juicy ... and anything else the dealers want to throw at me. I'll let you know what I decide is best for me and attempt to explain without upsetting any of you... hopefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 tonytoes - 2013-03-20 9:43 PM Well, anyway this week end I'm off to try a wisper, storck, kalkoff, freego, juicy ... and anything else the dealers want to throw at me. I'll let you know what I decide is best for me and attempt to explain without upsetting any of you... hopefully. .....yeah, let us know - it should be good for a laugh, one way or another. ;-) It certainly is worthwhile trying a few variations of both manufacturer and drive. Hopefully, you'll find one that feels right for you and your desired use - and your budget (and, really only you can sort those out). I was lucky enough to test one that felt "right first time", still feels right, and has performed rather better than my expectations. Putting all "banter" aside, patently, there may be better bikes than the one that feels "right for you", but if you've selected with your eyes (at least reasonably) open, and it continues to perform and feel right, then what's to worry about? Good Luck. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 tonytoes - 2013-03-20 9:43 PM Well, anyway this week end I'm off to try a wisper, storck, kalkoff, freego, juicy ... and anything else the dealers want to throw at me. I'll let you know what I decide is best for me and attempt to explain without upsetting any of you... hopefully. Make sure you try the storck on a hill they are a very weak 24 v system . They use a low power version of the excellent direct drive. go-swiss drive, this motor used in many top class German bikes from the likes of Cube, green mover etc....that perform a hell of a lot better. If a Wisper make sure it's the new German built models, the new models seem to be a tad heavy which is a shame UK dealers now stock, Scott, AVE, Cannondale,, KTM and Haibike Bosch powered bikes among others. Well worth a demo, will be surprised if your not impressed At least you are approaching this with an open mind......good luck!lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Sorry, I got that wrong , his with battery on downtube, hers with battery on seat tube. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Best of luck with your purchase, let us know how you get on. As said before, we have Freegos purchased about two years ago, and cannot fault the backup service they have offered, and unfortunately had to use ! (Blown battery charger and battery after 9 months use) Now there is a larger range of bikes, technology, motor styles and placements and much dropped prices, our next purchase might be different. Undoubtably its an up and coming competative market. I have not ridden a crank motor bike, but I would imagine that the ride is better balanced, than a rear motor hub bike which tends to be a bit of a bone shaker on rough services. Avoid front hubs , I prefer a rear wheel slide on a bike, not a front wheel slide ! Unashamed plug !! Join the CTC, become an active, informed cyclist and membership also gives you free insurance in case of accident etc. https://www.ctc.org.uk/ Only to add there is some eBike chatter on the forums, but you have to search for it. Only to add a bit more, Quite a few Bike shops will give discount on odds'n'sods if you flash the membership card. It all helps £ ! Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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