Tertia Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Hi. I would be greatfull for some advice about the above van. We have had our brand new van conversion for a week and covered 700 miles. Several warranty problems are currently being attended to by our local Fiat dealer: 1. A serious noise from the engine on start up. RAC man stated on his report " Do not start this vehicle" Van lifted and taken to Fiat dealer who have diagnosed the fault as the hydraulic tappets. Their comment was. "You should hear some Euro 5 engines, it is nothing to worry about .The noise goes away when the engine warms up" !!!!!!!! Surely this can not be acceptable. 2. Water leaks all over the top of engine when it is raining!!!!! The same comment. Don't worryt about it. 3. Drivers side small lower mirror won't adjust to let me see higher than the rear wheel while the passenger side one adjusts to a higher view. Similar comment. "I reset it as best I could, that's just the way it is" !!!!!!!!!!!! Have any of you had similar problems? The engine noise is the most worrying. Regards Tertia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Tertia - 2012-02-16 6:01 PM "You should hear some Euro 5 engines, it is nothing to worry about .The noise goes away when the engine warms up" !!!!!!!! Surely this can not be acceptable. Your post doesn't quite make sence, have you a Euro5 engine and/or did you mean to say "You shouls hear some Euro 4 engines"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Tertia, My immediate thoughts are - It's a lemon! Take it back and ask for your money back! But seriously, Do not be fobbed off with excuses like that, no vehicle should make noises that cause an RAC patrolman to say 'Do not start this vehicle'. Ask for an independent assessment of the noise and stick to your guns. Also the issue of water leaking on to the engine is an old chestnut, try searching this forum and I'm sure you'll find lot's of previous posts! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tertia Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Hi there. Thanks for the reply. I should have said " you should here some of the Euro 5 engines" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Our Euro 4 engine is no more noisey than I expected compared to anyother engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everhopeful Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I had a new Ford car with hydraulic tappets and the same horrendous noise on start-up. The dealer first told me it was ok and to just give it a good revving every time it starts!! Obviously I wasn't happy with that and they tried other things like changing the oil to a thicker and a thinner type. No difference. They even said my dipstick was too long / short and tried different oil levels. No difference. I complained to Ford via an independent mechanical engineer and they eventually paid for a new engine. The whole fiasco took over 12 months to resolve, and of course the new engine was as quiet as a mouse. I never found out the real problem, but I have reasons to believe it had the a**e screwed out of it on a 100 mile delivery! Don't accept this as normal because it isn't. Hydraulic tappets should not rattle alarmingly and they are trying to fob you off. It may be that the garage and Fiat don't know how to fix it yet, but if you persist then they will eventually find the problem. Best of luck (lets hope they solve it before I order my euro V)!! 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Tertia - 2012-02-16 6:01 PM Hi. I would be greatfull for some advice about the above van. We have had our brand new van conversion for a week and covered 700 miles. Several warranty problems are currently being attended to by our local Fiat dealer: 1. A serious noise from the engine on start up. RAC man stated on his report " Do not start this vehicle" Van lifted and taken to Fiat dealer who have diagnosed the fault as the hydraulic tappets. Their comment was. "You should hear some Euro 5 engines, it is nothing to worry about .The noise goes away when the engine warms up" !!!!!!!! Surely this can not be acceptable. 2. Water leaks all over the top of engine when it is raining!!!!! The same comment. Don't worryt about it. 3. Drivers side small lower mirror won't adjust to let me see higher than the rear wheel while the passenger side one adjusts to a higher view. Similar comment. "I reset it as best I could, that's just the way it is" !!!!!!!!!!!! Have any of you had similar problems? The engine noise is the most worrying. Regards Tertia I suspect no one has much experience of the Fiat euro 5 engine but I drove one a few weeks ago and no noise. The water in the engine bay Fiat cured back in 2008 so not normal. Mirror adjusting certainly not right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Tertia, I would like to make one thing absolutely clear from the outset. There is absolutely no difference between Euro 4 and Euro 5 engines internally. The injection system is somewhat different and the exhaust system and pipework is considerably different but the core of both 2.3 and 3.0 engines is exactly the same. The noise that you are hearing can sometimes be heard briefly when a new or highly reconditioned engine is first started but will disapper (never to return unless there is a major fault) within a short period of time. This engine is obviously faulty and should never have left the factory. It should never have been delivered to a converter and certainly should not have been passed at PDI by any Fiat agent. That this vehicle has been handed over to you in this condition is scandalous and now they expect YOU to thrash this out with Fiat?!? Take it back to the firm that you purchased it from. Speak to the most senior person there and explain that you will expect them to rectify the faults or arrange to have this done. You should stipulate a reasonable time period for this to be acheived and you should tell them what you expect as compensation for the loss of the vehicle during this time. You then should clearly state (and back this up in writing by recorded delivery) that if the vehicle is not completely free of faults by the time and date specified that you will expect a full refund for the vehicle which (in it's entirety; you bought a whole vehicle, not a chassis and some bodywork) is clearly not fit for the purpose that it was intended. Make a very firm stand on this. The supplying dealer has probably comitted an offence. It is illegal to sell an item that is not of merchantable quality. Ripples from your actions will be felt all the way back to Fiat and more people should be so strong to prevent such things happening to others. For the sake of balance; Ford, Merceded and Renault are more than capable of supplying duff vehicles and I am sure others do too but this is a Fiat; and they must not get away with it. There are several ways around the other problems so don't get bogged down with those. They are largely irrelevant. The engine must start and run with the quiet efficienc that we have all come to expect. Period. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Just as a follow up to Nick's excellent advice, I would suggest you try reason first. It seems from your post that your van went straight to a Fiat garage of some sort, so it may be that the converter who supplied it is unaware of the faults. It would be reasonable to let the converter know of your concerns, and to reserve your position with them as Nick says, but if you start off with recorded letters etc you may convince them you merely intend suing, in which case they may simply respond by going into "legal defencive" mode. If your relationship with them was good during the supply stages, try to build on that, rather than taking out the big stick too early. I would also suggest you contact Consumer Direct, and through them you local Trading Standards bods and seek their advice. You have a particular problem in dealing with this. The man who sold you the van has no effective control over Fiat, or how they discharge their warranty, but he is legally liable to you under consumer legislation for the "fitness for purpose" and "merchantable quality" of what he sold. Fiat and their authorised repairers, on the other hand, are the only people who can/will undertake warranty work on Fiat vehicles, and you have no contract, and so no consumer rights protections, in dealing with Fiat under their warranty. So, repairs such as you mention will have to be carried out by Fiat. My personal view is that you should, first and foremost, make contact with Trading Standards, and get their advice on what options you have. This may include formal rejection, but that is not straightforward and must be done in the correct way. If you have not already done this, you should definitely acquaint the converter with the problem you are having, explaining that you are obliged to record various items in writing to him to protect your interests, and you are not being hostile in doing this. I say this because I think you want the converter on your side, because they will have bought the van before conversion from a Fiat supplier somewhere, who will probably value the business. They need to contact that supplier on your behalf and, if that is not the garage where the van presently is, this may result in your van being returned whence it came for evaluation and repair under warranty. Nick is right: someone didn't do their job properly and needs a sharp kick in the pants! The pressure needs to go from you, through your converter, to the converter's supplier, and from them back to Fiat. Your converter can, within reason, source his vans from anywhere, so his supplier should be motivated to keep his repeat customer happy, and through him, keep you happy. The main requirement, at this point, is, as Nick says, to get the higher management actively involved and on your side. Then, the supplier should get in touch with Fiat UK, through channels you will be unable to reach, and push them for a proper evaluation by one of Fiats technicians. This should only take a few conversations and phone calls, so it won't take long to complete. Try to establish timescales and firm dates for action with all parties, and keep in close contact with all players. Then, if you gain the impression you are being fobbed off all round, or it seems to be dragging, consider sending the formal letters, as advised by TS, but be aware this is, somewhat the nuclear option, because your converter may well panic, and refuse on legal advice to communicate directly with you. The van you bought will have cost you, at a guess, near £40K. It will have cost the converter, at another guess, maybe £20K. The engine is worth, at an even greater guess, £5K. A man who faces having to make £40K restitution, losing the value of all his conversion work, and gaining back only a devalued PVC, for want of a £5K engine he can do nothing directly about, may not remain entirely rational. So, all I am saying is hold his hand rather than showing him a clenched fist. Besides all of which, I suspect it will all be sorted out, to your full satisfaction by Fiat, even if the clots who presently have the van leave you with a nasty taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Brian, Of course you are right. I have become quite heavy handed in recent years and my tolerance is quite low! Having had other problems with converters and dealers fobbing good folk off with shoddy products discussed in microscopic detail on this forum in recent years it makes me sick to the stomach that there could be yet another 'proud owner' having to tow the Fiat dealer only line and acheiving nothing. You should get clued up immediately as to your rights and keep very detailed notes of every conversation that you have. Most important is the need to not give up hope and make sure that you make the only person that you have a legally binding contract with, accountable for your satisfaction. This is the firm that you paid your money to. Please keep us informed regarding your progress! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Dead right on all counts, Nick! And I hope nothing in my post appears to detract from any of that. Just do the "jaw jaw" before you start the "war war"! In the meantime, make sure you have a huge pile of cannoballs "out the back", and that your powder is stored all nice and dry - just in case! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tertia Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Many thanks for all the comprehensive advice, especially Brian and Nick. We are just back from the Fiat dealer who is going to have a Fiat technical expert look at the van. This will take place next Wednesday which is encouraging. This afternoon I will contact the supplier and give him the bad news. Just for good measure the dealer has now swiped the side door and our lovely new van is in the body shop. Regards Tertia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Hi again Tertia (sorry, don't know your real name), Another thought, are you a member of either AA or RAC? If so contact their legal services department and ask for advise. Then when you contact your selling dealer tell them you have sought legal advice and exactly what that was, ie Not fit for purpose or the like, and how you want them to resolve the situation. We had an issue with our MH when we bought it (SH) 4 years ago and the dealer tried to fob us by claiming on the warranty that he gave with it. This didn't cover the fault so I called RAC legal services and got advice. Then when I said to dealer I had sought legal advice and who from they immediately agreed to foot the bill for the repair to my satisfaction. Result! PS. Some house insurance policies and the like have legal advice cover included so worth checking policies. HTH, Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Tertia - 2012-02-17 2:50 PM Just for good measure the dealer has now swiped the side door and our lovely new van is in the body shop. Sorry but in my books I would not accept a repair on a one week old MH. Even more reason to reject the MH and ask for a new one! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 following up nicks post on first tappit noise, I've rebuilt several top ends on GM and Ford engines with hydraulic tappits, usual procedure is to fully compress tappit, on first start this will give a few seconds of rattle then it's sorted, if this is not case it's normaly blockage in oilway or air lock, I'm guessing Fiat will be same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Keithl - 2012-02-17 2:54 PM Tertia - 2012-02-17 2:50 PM Just for good measure the dealer has now swiped the side door and our lovely new van is in the body shop. Sorry but in my books I would not accept a repair on a one week old MH. Even more reason to reject the MH and ask for a new one! Keith. Keith, I think this "dealer" may be the garage that thinks the rattles etc are normal, not the supplier of the motorhome. This sounds to me like a careless and incompetent firm, and I would be strongly inclined to get the van to somewhere (anywhere) else for further work. I'd also check that repair job very thoroughly as well. Anyone else hear the jingle of spurs? Tertia, did you actually see the extent of the damage, and have they explained how they propose repairing it? This is your property, not theirs, and they must make good to your entire satisfaction. Filler in doors is not a good idea, because it tends to fall out at a later date. On a van this new, a new door, not even a skin, seems the proper repair. Why not try the AA again and see if you can use any of their specialists? This is a total disgrace! I think you should also have words with Fiat customer services: the van was only with these comedians because it is in for warranty work, and it is their agent who has now damaged it!! Responsibility time, methinks! :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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