Interesting CC review of Adria Sport A660 DP

[Poppy]

This is quite a large van with seating/beds for 6.George Hinton took it away for a few days with his wife, daughter and 2 grand children.Overall they felt it was a good van that catered well for 6.HOWEVER it has a quoted unladen weight of 3,160kgs and a maximum laden weight of 3,500 kgs giving a loading margin of 340 kgs. On their way back, having got it in average loading for 6 they took it to the weighbridge.It weighed in at 3.795 kgs.!!!! They sugest that to keep yourselves legal and safe you get an uprated chassis.Fine if you can of course, not so good if you are stuck with 3.500 kg max for any reason.Bet thats not in the brochure.Well done to George Hinton and the CC for printing this.

[Guest JudgeMental]

normally these vehicles are DOWN plated to 3500kg so that Europeans can drive them, as licencing is different over there...Obviously totally impractical for 6 at this weight, but should only be a paper exercise and a few hundred quid to get it increased...should really be @ 4.2 kg I reckon :-S

[Guest JudgeMental]

Just had a quick look at the GH review...I think he is being a bit disingenuous as anyone with the slightest experience would recognise that a 3500kg van was in any way suitable for 6... surely the weighbridge visit should be before trip rather then afterwards!*-)

 

while I can understand that maybe panel van conversion can get away with being described as a "sport" model, and a few are with powerful engines, better suspension, wheels, tyres etc....a "sport" coachbuilt would be a different beast alltogether, and the "sport" in the name would mean it was designed to carry sporting equipment, and lots of it....again 3500Kg totally unrealistic.

[Poppy]

Yes I think he realized the load margin was poor but the exercise of loading it up as a six berth showed without doubt EXACTLY how poor it was.Also he wasn't trying to sell it as a six berth with that poor loading margin but SOMEONE SOMEWHERE obviously is.Perhaps the motor homing journalists who keep drawing peoples attention to this issue will ultimately start to influence the manufacturers.One British manufacturer(forget who) was trying to sell luxury 2 berths with a 200 kg loading margin.When challenged he said they were only suitable for short trips up to say a fortnight!!!!

[Brian Kirby]

Well, I'm afraid I read the report and laughed!

 

I have previously bleated to the club about their unguarded reviews of vans with inadequate payloads.

 

George Hinton is, unfortunately, and very uncritical reviewer, but he should by now know better. The thing that staggered me is that, as a representative of the Caravan Club, he can openly admit to being so irresponsible as to load this van with his family, and then drive it while nearly 300kg overloaded (6 cwt in old money).

 

He, perhaps wisely, doesn't reveal by how much the individual axles were over their limits, but possibly he didn't think to check. However, I suspect that being so much overloaded, at least one axle (and so also the tyres on that axle), must have been overloaded.

 

Final insult to intelligence, he only checked its weight on his way back home!! This was not just a minor technical infringement of some obscure piece of legislation. This was a risk to the wellbeing of his passengers, some of whom were his grandchildren! The man is supposedly a "professional" who writes on caravans and motorhomes, and whose advice is taken as authoritative by many.

 

Irresponsible and incompetent are what come to my mind, I'm afraid, rather than professional. He's previously reviewed vans with hopelessly inadequate payloads, and made only anodyne comments on their adequacy. Lets hope he has, at last, "got it" on motorhome payloads. It would have served him right if he'd been pulled into a VOSA roadside weight test and been prosecuted.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Or better still banned from motorhome journalism? :D

 

Seriously though it was an astonishing read ! *-)

[Keithl]

According to the Venture Caravans Adria UK website Link, the A660 DP is available on a choice of 3 chassis. Namely 3,500kg, 4,000kg or 4,250kg.

If this is the case why do they try and market the 3,500kg version as a six berth? Why not only market it as a 2 or possibly 4 berth and then it would work.

 

Keith.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-23 6:20 PM

 

Well, I'm afraid I read the report and laughed!

 

.....to load this van with his family, and then drive it while nearly 300kg overloaded (6 cwt in old money).

 

...Final insult to intelligence, he only checked its weight on his way back home!!

 

 

No,it's not exactly the "advice" a newbie needs realy,is it.....

Mind you,it would've been even funnier if they HAD weighed it before setting ofon their trip....

 

"..and on receiving the weight ticket,we then occupied ourselves by playing a nice game of "rock ,paper,scissors" .This helped us to decide which three of us,would have to get off and sit on the verge and keep an eye on all the bikes....." (lol)

[pepe63xnotuse]

Oops! sorry double post. :$

[Derek Uzzell]

Adria's 2012 catalogue suggests that the Sport A660DP is available on two different chassis depending on the vehicle's Euro 5 'motorisation'.

 

The version with the 130bhp 2.3litre motor is built as standard on the Ducato 35L 3500kg-MAM chassis, with an optional 'UPRATE' to 3650kg MAM, whereas the version with the 150bhp 2.3litre motor is built as standard on the Ducato 43H 4300kg-MAM chassis, with an optional 'DOWNRATE' to 3500kg MAM.

[Keithl]

Derek,

 

I too found that info after posting the weights from the UK site so thought the UK quoted figures must overide the Adria figures in some way.

 

My guess would be that the 35L upgrade is merely to the sum of the axle limits so would give rise to load balance difficulties and the downrate on the 43H would possibly give rise to limited payload as the chassis must surely be heavier?

I could not find any other figures such as MIRO for the 2 options given so my advice would be 'Buyer beware' and check very, very carefully any vehicle you think of buying.

 

Keith.

[Derek Uzzell]

I don't really understand why George Hinton should be pilloried over the Adria report. The 3500kg version's limited payload is clearly highlighted - what more does a reader need to be told?

 

With a 340kg quoted user-payload I would have expected to be able stay within the 3500kg MAM, given the passengers being carried and that only a weekend jaunt was involved. I certainly would not have anticipated the 295kg over-weight figure.

 

The same vehicle was tested by Which Motorhome in early-2011 and the report can be read in this website's Motorhomes Reviews section.

 

 

[PJay]

I wonder how much knowledge the CC people have on Motor Homes. I am a member, but feel that the CC is still really a CARAVAN CLUB. Lots of there sites appear to be in the middle of nowhere , and you need transport to get any-where.

We were going to cancel this year, as we don't use their sites, but decided maybe to try to get away for odd days later in the year.

With ACSI we don't need club sites. Our main usage is on the continent.

[Derek Uzzell]

PJay - 2012-02-24 11:27 PM

 

I wonder how much knowledge the CC people have on Motor Homes. I am a member, but feel that the CC is still really a CARAVAN CLUB. Lots of there sites appear to be in the middle of nowhere , and you need transport to get any-where.

We were going to cancel this year, as we don't use their sites, but decided maybe to try to get away for odd days later in the year.

With ACSI we don't need club sites. Our main usage is on the continent.

 

If you were to suggest that the Caravan Club focuses on caravans much more than on motorhomes, then I would certainly agree with you - after all, it's implicit in the Club's name!

 

However, if you were to suggest that the authors of motorhome-related articles published in the Caravan Club magazine are badly informed or lack motorhome experience, that's another matter.

 

I refer you to the George Hinton entry on the following webpage

 

http://www.caravanwritersguild.org.uk/members.html

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-02-24 6:57 PM

 

I don't really understand why George Hinton should be pilloried over the Adria report. The 3500kg version's limited payload is clearly highlighted - what more does a reader need to be told? .....................

I'll accept that it is commercially dangerous to embark on outright criticism of particular vehicles in print, and that George Hinton's piece could not be expected to go to that extreme. I'll also accept that I just don't like his "Reader's Digest" approach to reviewing motorhomes, and have a bee-in-my-bonnet about payloads! :-)

 

However, I was genuinely taken aback by the casual way in which just dropped into his review that he had been driving so grossly overloaded. After all, it was loaded it to nearly twice its payload: this was no minor overshoot by a few kg. He then, equally casually, commented that he took the van to a weighbridge on his way home, not on his way out - which is hardly the most logical course of action! I can only assume that some aspect of the van's handling (though he doesn't mention this) - or possibly a quick check in the handbook or under the bonnet for its MAM - worried him, and prompted him to get it weighed.

 

What concerns me in this, is that numbers of people are switching from caravaning to motorhoming, and inevitably quite a proportion of those are CC members so get the magazine. The club and its magazine are widely quoted - including on this forum - as authoritative sources; seemingly more so than the commercial magazines. So, when George doesn't spell out the dangers of his misdemeanour, he seems to me to give the impression that they were merely a technical "oops" moment without real significance. I beg to differ.

 

So yes, the payload (340kg for a six berth van with six belted seats!) is stated, but without further comment (under the circumstances, an asterisked reference to his "Verdict" on payload might have been more helpful). But in his "Verdict" he then states "........we can highly recommend it as as either a regular four-berth using two fixed beds or a full family six-berth." No: "but see the following on payload". His parting paragraph then merely says: "However, a word of warning: we visited a weighbridge on our way home and were dismayed to tip the scales at 3,790kg, with what we considered "average" loading for a family of six. We therefore believe most buyers should budget for the uprated chassis in order to keep themselves safe and legal." No reminder that a Class C1 licence will be required to drive these higher MAM vehicles, nor are the actual available enhanced payloads stated. I just don't think this is an adequate caution for the uninitiated.

 

The "uprated" chassis is merely listed, as an option, as "Ducato 43H chassis". In the case of this van, as nods and winks to the cognoscenti his comments may be fair enough, but as a clear and adequate guide to those contemplating the purchase of their first motorhome, I think he falls a long way short of the requirement. On its standard chassis it is just suitable for use by a couple, possibly with two very small children. A six berth, with an adequate payload for four growing children, it is not. That is the essence of my quarrel with George's piece.

 

Even ex-caravaners, it seems, manage to fall into the trap of believing that these large, and reassuringly heavy, vehicles, with all their tempting cupboards, will pose little problem when loading them. So many then seem to discover that what they have compromises its use. I would have hoped that the Caravan Club would by now have a greater sense of that danger for its "would be motorhomer" members, and would have put the amber light right to the fore in their Verdict, possibly with a reference to one of their generally excellent information sheets on buying a motorhome and payload.

 

So, under the circumstances, even recognising that these are only "snapshot" reviews, I don't think I'm being unreasonably harsh in criticising the tenor of the piece, where its origin is a such a trusted source.

[flicka]

I wonder if Mr. Plod has been round to interview George, regarding his published confession on breaching the Law. >:-)

[Derek Uzzell]

It would be interesting to know what the Adria motorhome George Hinton drove actually weighs, and how acccurate the weighbridge is.

 

This is the same vehicle as tested by Which Motorhome and the video suggests that it has no heavy add-ons (like an awning). Even if we take a worst-case scenario with George driving with a full 100 litres fresh-water tank and 2 gas bottles (rather than the 20 litres of water and 1 bottle that are, apparently, factored into Adria's calculations that result in the quoted 340kg user-payload), that should still leave 240kg or so for passengers and luggage. 240kg seems a reasonable weight total for two adult women and 3 children, but (according to the weighbridge) this motorhome was 295kg overweight - that's a helluva lot of luggage for a weekend away.

 

The Which Motorhome review says:

 

"The other key option (one we haven’t got) is the Ducato 40H chassis, which adds almost 400kg to the payload and 27bhp to the power output (care of the 3-litre engine) for another £2196. Driving licences and continental speed limits may influence your decision on this topic too, but it might be all too easy for a family to exhaust the standard 500-odd kilo allowance by adding a few accessories and loading up the garage with mountain bikes and the like, especially as Adria’s figures include only 20 litres in the fresh water tank and one gas cylinder. To help you stay within the law the inboard tank has a rotary knob (easily accessible underneath the seat cushion) to drain it down from 100 litres to 20 for travel, or to drain it completely for winter storage."

 

I can't see this warning being any more damning payload-wise than George Hinton's comments in the CC report.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Kirbys right your wrong....Simples

 

I'll say this once more for the hard of hearing..."Sport" where a coachbuilt is concerned, to me means it is designed to carry lots of sporting equipment? and is not a rally car *-)

 

the man went away with not only his own family on board, but his grandchildren in a grossly overweight camper..He was not ignorant of this fact, he knows better, and it is indefensible

[Brian Kirby]

Agreed, Derek, the Which Motorhome summary handles the warning rather more helpfully for the novice, than does George's. However, I'm intrigued by their reference to a "500kg allowance" (340+400=740?), did they say how they arrived at that?

 

I'm also rather incredulous at the amount of overload George reported, the more so when he said the trip was for a weekend. Some weekend, some beer?!! :-) However, that is what he says the weighbridge said, so who knows? This is all a bit odd, as from what you say, the WM review and GH's review just don't seem to chime. So, apart from not knowing whether the load as quoted by GH included 20 (well spotted! :-)) or 100 litres of water, or 1 x 12kg aluminium gas cylinder, or 2 x 13kg steel cylinders, we are left with no idea how he managed to get to nearly 300kg over the odds for a weekend. Pet elephant? :-)

 

Taken with the "heavy" chassis option, this seems a reasonably workable van, but it then needs a C1 licence entitlement. I think we have noted before that 6 berth vans with 3.5 tonne MAMs are, really, non-starters for family holidays but even I, with my payload bee buzzing in my bonnet, would have expected an experienced motorhomer, let alone an experienced reviewer, to be a) aware of the risk b) able to load for a weekend without going over the limit and c) to have checked first. That he didn't, in fairness, rather suggests that something else was up, either a very out of adjustment weighbridge, or an abnormally heavy van (but that much out??), or maybe just a typo!

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2012-02-26 11:55 AM

 

However, I'm intrigued by their reference to a "500kg allowance" (340+400=740?), did they say how they arrived at that?

 

 

....I suspect it arises from the current quoted MIRO of the "base" van being 2988kg.

 

To this must be added any extras if fitted (such as the SE Lux pack - air con, air bag, electric option on the combi, and a bit of extra lighting), which is unlikely to have eaten up an extra 170kg or so.

 

Adria are also (AFAICS) one of the manufacturers who are less than forthcoming about what is included in the MIRO, though Derek appears to have obtained some info.

 

If his info is correct, then 80 litres extra of water, plus gas, plus the SE Lux pack might bring things close to the 340kg payload mark.

 

Six people, (even if there is a 75kg allowance for the driver in the MIRO) would eat a good proportion of that (possibly over 200kg), and food, clothes, puschair scooters, bikes? etc. would add quite a bit more. I note they had to resort to using the garage for spare clothes, which rather implies a fully-loaded interior.

 

So. I'm not at all surprised it was overweight, though the margin looks slightly high, possibly it was weighed with a full waste tank?.

[Merle]

As an ex-tugger and still a member of CC yes I do get the club mag, I must admit to also being of the opinion that is is very much for the caravanner with minimum after thought to motorhomers, I was particularly disgusted with the answer to a supposed question about A frames....just a 'one size fits all' response of they don't comply with the law..... what law?, and that the only answer is a small car on a four wheel trailer. And what about towing limits then CC answer man? as we have seen in recent threads on this site even a Smart For 2 is 1040KG with a trailer, borderline and beyond for many motorhomes. Time to cancel my subs I think, though I do like some of the CL's. Merle

[Mel B]

I've been reading this with interest, as we've only just joined the CC again, I haven't had the mag yet, so can only go by what has been stated on here.

 

I'm extremely surprised that such a well known and authoritative reviewer has gone out in a large 6 berth motorohome, with a very low declared payload, without checking whether he would be over the limit first. He didn't need to have his family with him, or his chattels etc, to be able to see if they would be breaking the law when fully loaded. The payload is miniscule at best:

 

225kg for 3 extra adults (at say 75kg each) + 60kg for 2 children (at say 30kg each) = 285kg and that's before anything else is included!!! There's no way it was ever going to be under the limit. It would be interesting to hear what the CC's view was of the legality of the test as they may be the ones providing insurance etc to cover reviewers?