Brambles Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Good couple of posts above to help make sense of things. Having spoken to Tayna they have confirmed the Enduroline is AtlasBX manufacture. Well actually chap said Korean Storage Battery Company. Thats what AtlasBX was called prior to 2004. It's weight is 29Kg v the Varta being 28Kg. Not a lot to it to justify the 135Ah. Now, it is quite possible the rating is based on discharging down to totally flat of 10.5v or even lower volts. This gives too high a mesurement to be snsible as 11.9 volts should be used or at least is about that in european specs. Also bear in mind some specs will start the test with a fully charged 100%, or indeed more, battery by charging with 14.8 volts and then trickle charging until max charge absorption occurs. European manufactures like Varta and Banner do it this way. If the battery is designed for Alternator charging then they charge at 14.4 volts until the charge current tapers off. This means the battery is 100% charged to them as is normal and what is achieved in practical use (if it was a standby battery for example then yes they would trickle charge to a much higher absorption. If they continue to charge for much longer or raise to 14.8 volts then you can technically achieve nearer 110% charge. So hopefully I have explained why a Varta 105 is more like a 120, and an asian 120 Ah battery is more like 105 Ah. Then use a lower end point voltage and you can spec an even higher Ah rating. There is actually a heck of lot more to this and life cylcles but I am tryingto really simplify (badly!) So looking at the Enduroline which is 135, lets just sort of cheat here and say its 1kg heavier and 1kg = a generous 5 Ah. ( actually about 3.5Ah) so that makes it 5 Ah more than the Varta so in Varta terms and using the varta as a reference, it is a 110 Ah equivalent. So in those terms it looks better than the Varta. All is good. But, it is predomenantly a starter battery. I know this because it has a cranking amps of over 1100 Amps. The varta does not give a spec for cranking amps which means it is probably below 500Amps and is a deep discharge design. Less plates but much thicker. The Enduroline will be more plates and thinner. The only way to know how many more is to chop the top off and count them and look at width of plates etc. Now, nice chap at Tayna, bless him, said the enduroline is 600 cycles but a bit vague on depth of discharge and came up with 50% because thats what they are all tested and rated at. Hmmm. not really true, if it is predominently a starter it will be to 40% dod and therefore we can assume at 60% only 200 cyles max. There is no way it is 600 cycles at 50% or more and chap realised what he had said and agree with 40% and exponentially a lot less at 60% dod. he qalso seemed to be recommending ioy because you wanted dual termials. You can always fit clamos with additional terninal points threaded into them. It is definitely more suitable for a Marine starting application with light loaded leisure use in my opinion. There is no doubt it is an excellent battery and top notch, for the right application. Its design is basically based on modern high performance battery design for all the quiescent loads modern vehicles have with so many electronic modules im stamdby mode, alarms etc.. Brian mentioned about the see sawing, was it, down the charge level as nights went on. Can not remember exact words. Anyway, yes this can happen and does happen, the charge replaced often never matches what is used so battery slowly gets flatter and flatter until it gets a very long run or is on hook up. Now, the better a battery absorbes charge the sooner it recovers. Now whilst I don ot hbe te sepc for the Enduroline Varta have a good reputation for speed of recharge. As the Enduroline has a larger number of plates it may well be pretty good actually but with out the appropriate specifications its hard to tell. But assuing it is better at charging rate, would it compensate for the downfall of aging quicker due to thinner plates. I do not think so. I stil think the Varta is better. After all it is a deep discharge battery where the Enduroline is not. Now comes something which has struck me. I have not been able to find where Varta make or source their 105Ah, I do have the specs though. It is quite feasible it is the excellant AtlasBX deep discharge I mention way back but not available in the Uk yet as far as I know. Well maybe, just maybe the Varta is indeed the Atlas BX DC. If by chance it is, noting a manufacture does not always make all the batteries they sell but buys in or licences others to manufacture , then there is no contest, the Varta 105 is the battery to go for. It would also explain why no one else is importing it becuse Varta ( Johnson Controls) will have a sole licence on selling it in europe. I am losing the plot now, but Brians suggestion to look at modifying the battery box now or finding somewhere else to put a battery is a good suggestion. On the other hand, if one battery is going to give you what you need, albeit maybe the odd night you get low on power ( remembering you can always start and idle your engine for 15 minutes to get you through the night, then it mayb be more satisfactor to just live with ione battery whoch may fail to perform adequately to yoru needs after 4 years, whereas two batteries will meet your needs but not last for twice as long ( Hmmm- debateable I suppose, and Braiun made a good comment on this). Just putting another view on it in so far it is more economical sometimes to buy one and another when it dies tehn to buy two if not really needed especially when you take into account at any time you can get a fault which end up in yor ubatteries getting murdered and neding replaced. Just thining allowed here, and time for me to shut up and post, as I said I am losing the plot and confusing myself now. Jon. Please excuse typos and spelling mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franki Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 Hi poor Jon, Thank you for your research and comments it does all make sense and sounds as if the Varta is the battery to go for, I shall have to sort out the connections but thank you for your exhaustive work on this matter. Sandi has read and typed all the posts and is now battery dead and is off to bed. I will follow her and have to jump start her in the morning (any idea what's a good battery for jump starting the wife). Thanks Again Frank and a tired Sandi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 You are welcome, Also helps me keep up to date with what batteries are what. edit. Re jump stating the wife, I think the unit they use takes 2 C size cells, I recommend Duracell Procell , get on Amaxon from iCell market place trader at a very reasonable prive for a pack on 10 next day 1st class post. Seriously though, if you need AA or AAA cells for general use , we all do, Amazon is the place and look for Procells as mentioned. A few sellers but a couple are good suppliers Icell and Beaky Trading or something like that are very good and all fresh stock. For car type Batteries , Tayna, Bristol batteries, and Electroquest are my favourites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franki Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 Hi Jon (Brambles It's us again, don't panic no problems, just wanted to let you know we now have a Varta 105ah battery fitted to our van, and WOW what a difference. Just to test it out yesterday we had the heating on for 3 hours, and 3 lights for 6 hours, it was still on 90%. I tend to think our old battery has never really been much good, as we have never been able to run lights for such a length of time. We are all set up now to set off with confidence and would like to thank you for your extremely patience and knowledgeable advice. Thanks once again Frank and Sandi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 It will get even better after the 1st 50 cycles or so as it works in, good batteries improve capacity before starting to reduce. Your Squadron was never a particularly good leisure battery - basically only good as a starter battery. Keep this one charged up and do not let it go/stay flat when in storage, by disconnecting after charging, and it will give you very good service. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul- Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Some very interesting posts but if I was in your situation & to prevent future battery problems, I would get a solar panel Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirtle26 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 how did you sort out your connection problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkbuoy Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Hi Brambles I too have been looking at a replacement battery and have learned a lot from this discussion. I have come across this Numax battery, could you give me an opinion on this please. http://www.advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/numaxdutyleisurebattery110amp.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Hi, for the Numax L110, it is probably the only one ( along with the L135) I would consider as is not a dual starter come deep discharge but along the lines of a Semi traction which is what the Varta and Banners mentioned before are. The weight is also abliut right for the spec at 29kg. I cannot find a full specification for this battery but going on the abbrevated spec sounds OK. However, as to the quality I have no idea except make some suggestions. It possibly will have a higher water consumption than the premiun brands, although still be characteristically low as for a calciun battery. This L110 is not seaed so can be topped up if required which is good. ( needs checking as comments below on lined page comtradict this and picture of battery) I just cannot see it being as low as the more expensive batteries as the addition of silver and other precious metals costs money, along with fancy cast plate grids which optimise paste in area where it tends to erode etc, and would push the price up. reliability, no idea I am afraid. I do not even recognise who makes it althihgh is probably in an asian country. A word with Manbat who imports it is probbaly worthwhile and see if they might mention its source. So at the moment I am going to put this in the catagory of a reasonable or good budget battery and better than the sealed numax ranges for Mtoprhome use. If you are not a power hungry freak and do not discharge too deep, lets go for say 30% to 50% it should serve well and complete nicely with the much more expensive VARTA and Banner ranges for the money v life. I will maybe phone Manbat tomorrow and see if I can get some more infomation on this battery as it could be a great budget alternative to the premium quality batteries. You could always buy it and let us all know in 4 years how it is going , or 2 years if it is not. Sorry I cannot be much more help at the moment. I despair a bit when I see loads of posts from peopl sugegsting cheap batteries which ae fine if you are strapped for cash and need a battery, but this one seems different . I just wish I had a full spec with life cycle curves and its construction, plate seperator materials etc. and who the manufacturer is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 p.s. What I can tell you is it is 100 Ah not 110, Got that from the Numax catalog specs. The seller has quoted the 100 hour rate not the 20 hour rate. See page 4 http://www.manbat.co.uk/cm/files/brochures/battery_specification.pdf P.P.S. Think I have found the manufacture. certainly looks like their case style for Semi traction. http://monbat.com/showpage.php?PageID=12&ParentID=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Some idle observations... I notice that there has been earlier forum discussion about the Numax L110 http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=18597&start=1 Based on these websites' comments, the L110 has (apparently) been superseded by the 95Ah LV26MF. http://www.leisurebatteryshop.co.uk/Numax-Leisure-Caravan-Batteries http://www.tayna.co.uk/Numax-LV26MF-Sealed-Leisure-Battery-MV26MF-P7674.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Not sure about being superceded as still seems to be available. The later batteries are starter come deep discharge (marine type batteries) and have nowhere near the same deep charge cycles and performance let alone capacity. Posssibly the suppliers have started promoting the later ones as more readily available from manufacturer. I think in earlier discussions I suggested it might have been made my Willard batteries. Maybe it was at one time, maybe not, but it was certainly not suitable for Tracker's application as he demanded pretty high performance so Top quaity was the only way to go. It is also possible Monbat buy it in from elswhere so I will check Willard again, but also possible Numax have changed supplier. Anyway, the L100 is not the same quality as the Varta and Banner, but then is a lot cheaper. It seems if the reliability is there against sudden failure then it could be a worthwhile battery and for many users a good choice. I suspect it is manufactured from mainly recycled lead, this always reduces quality to a large extent because of impurities in the lead. Sometimes a batch of batteries will be good and sometimes not so good as the quality of lead will vary. All manufacturers use recycled lead to a large extent but the better manufactures are selective in where it is used ( which plate) and in what quantity and grade of lead and of course depends on processes used to refine the lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 The reason websites say teh later numax batteries have oerformance gains is because it does indeed , but this is in the area as starter battery ( in boat applications) or say in a small camper where it is the engine battery alsio used tio supply power for lights over might etc. Also they are more suitable for caravans with powered movers which use a lot of heavy power and you are looking for a cheap battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 I am beginning to get quite intriqued by this Numax L110. It does indeed seem to be made by Monbat. Been really struggling to get info and of course no knowing what the exact spec is for the Numax branding but the equivanent Monbat semi traction is 105Ah C20rate and 90 C5 rate. Thats pretty good with a excellant peukert value as it is known.Its construction and alloys used is excellant, but what I cannot find is a proper full spec to confirm this. Also no real life tests by anyone to prove reliability but are some Motorhome users who seem pleased with the life. So, anyone else on here who uses these Numax L110 battries for heavy use wild camping and never had a problem and they are still going stong. Monbat manufacture a lot of Nato Batteries, so have to be robust and these batteries appear to be assembled on same production lines and a couple of years agio they invested heavily in mew manufacturing equipment and have good quality comtrols in place. As I said I am intriqued as on paper is better than the banner, and possibly as good as the Varta (older range not new dual starter/leisure professional DC range). To throw another one in...300 cycles at 75% dod tested in independant laboratories. to EN specifications. Thats pretty respectable if true and being much cheaper than the premium brands looks like good value for money. Just like to have more info on reliabiliy or if many are returned to suppliers under warranty. Have you found a gem, I do not know. Time for me to phone a few people who may have used this battery and get some feedback, and ask Monbat for a full spec and test results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkbuoy Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Many thanks for all your research on this battery. It's great to get such information as the choice of batteries available is vast and the data supplied on most is generally limited and very confusing for a non expert such as me. I am considering getting two of these in place of three 75 ah ones which were in the van when I bought it six years ago. These are Varta but I can't tell much from the markings, they appear as if they may be starter batteries. Not bad service as they are likely to be eight or more years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 On the battery there should be a number both on the label ( might be identified DIN) and wil be 5 digits long. e,g DIN 95602 or 81271 (might be shown on varta as 956002). The 9 at beginning tells you it is a semi traction deep cycle. You should somewhere also have something like D41 or A27 if it is a Varta leisure. If it is a 5 then it is a starter battery. If it is for example the 81271 it is still a deep cycle but has an odd layout from standard for the cells or terminals, size, or type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkbuoy Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Brambles, the label has only the following numbers on it 1J0 915 105 M 12V 340A 70Ah Din alt EN 570 083 057 570 EN/SAE corkbuoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Its a varta 70Ah starter battery made for supply to VolksWagon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkbuoy Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Pretty good service from them in that case. I am not a heavy user so they would not have been discharged too deeply in the six years that I have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corkbuoy Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Brambles, did you succeed in getting any further info on the Numax L110's ? corkbuoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Some but not much The 500 cycles specified by seller is at 40% depth of discharge. However there is a big question mark now. I have been told Numax no longer get this battery and made it obsolete. I have not yet got this yet from the horses mouth ( the importer). It is a good speced battery, only question is lonh term reliability, but MonBat make battereis for military use, helicopters, planes and tanks and they have to be reliable so company does have high quality cababilities, no reason to suspect the 110 Ah leisure should not be reliable. The MonBat 110 Ah semitraction is still supplied by manufacturer, but as far as I know not readily available now in UK. The numax L110 Advance batteries have may be old stock., hence a competative price. Tayna no longer supply as apparently superceded by the later numax batteries. If you do decide to buy you will need to check they have not been stored filled with acid. and is freshly filled for delivery or only recently filled. Numax still appear to have an L110 listed in catalog but seems to be from a different supplier and is probably a marine battery (dual starter) . The yachting fraternity seem to have supplies and is called an M110 and may be supplied as a green coloured L110. but is identical. In other words this is not the same battery we are looking at you found from Advanced Batteries. It is also possible the photograph is out of date and does not show latest offerings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hector Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I dont know anything about the numax battery, but i have had an 110 elecsol battery since 2003 and it is still going strong. I cannot fault it in any way, and i would certainly buy another when the time comes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I have been told by a major battery supplier Elecsol have changed their supply source and now they get loads returned were before they only got a few. Varta, Banner and Exide they have never had any returns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bosch-Leisure-Battery-SL4018-/220969761911?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item3372d2fc77 This looks like it a Bosch L4018 leisure battery at a very good price. The equivalent Banner is £130 + del. ( this one is £>90) Its an excellent battery, but I cannot remember if it has central venting or not and technical details in Bosch catalog do not mentioned if it has or not. Have used these in the past and are a heavy lump of a brick.... 28.8kg. 813 010 000 should be the part number. The others the chap has listed on Ebay I cannot cross reference exactly and are only 75Ah anyway although I think I know what they are. One is equivalent to the Varta old 80(70) Ah, the other he has made a mistake in the listing as an L5 does not exist I really wish these guys would provide proper photos and details. The one above, 110Ah, photo is correct but do double check if interested. Also make sure this is not old stock stored filled with acid. Up to 6 months is fine but any longer needs to have been stored dry. Manufactures are all moving towards more expensive AGM. AGM does have lot of advantages but size is larger for a given capacity and more expensive. Being and L4 it should have 4 year guarantee...thats what the 4 means. Anyway, just thought I would mention I found this battery. Errors and omissions excepted bla bla bla.. dislaimer here and disclaimer there etc etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calex Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Hi all, I have read this posting with great interest as I am also looking to replace my leisure battery, after reading all the advice I have decided to go for one of the Varta range but now find my self a little confused with which one? The A24, the A25 or the A28? they all seem fairly similar on the Tayna web site At the moment I have an unbranded 120ah battery which is of similar size to the 3 Varta batteries. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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