Another illegal A-Framer heavily fined in Spain this week

[BGD]

Rayjsj - 2012-04-02 12:38 PM

 

Rowan, be prepared for about 1/2 Dozen 'Anti-A-Framers' to 'Jump on you' , they don't seem to be concerned about 'safety' only legality, I think we folk who consider them a 'safe' way of taking a small car on our travels are 'Pixxing into the wind' on this forum. (and in Spain evidently). *-) Ray

 

 

But guys, this isn't an issue to do with safety at all. It's to do with legality.

 

Things aren't automatically legal because they are safe; nor automatically illegal because they are unsafe. The two things are not causally connected.

 

And that, it seems to me, is the fatal flaw in the "I think it's safe, therefore it must be legal" argument for A-frame car towing use in the UK under UK law, or in any other overseas country under the specific laws of each of those other countries.

[Rowan Lee]

We are happy to use it in any country where it is not illegal. Where it is illegal, either specifically or as in Spain, then we won't use it. That seems to be the way to go for us.

[Guest peter]

Mel B - 2012-03-31 7:02 PM

 

If I had bought one of the supposedly 'legal in Europe' A-Frames and got fined ... somehow I think I'd be taking the supplier who made the claim to the Small Claims Court!!!

 

I wonder how long it will before someone does .... :-S

If you did you would certainly lose. As there is no question that the a frame is legal. It the fact that the action of towing a car with one is supposedly illegal in spain.

[Mel B]

peter - 2012-04-02 8:46 PM

 

Mel B - 2012-03-31 7:02 PM

 

If I had bought one of the supposedly 'legal in Europe' A-Frames and got fined ... somehow I think I'd be taking the supplier who made the claim to the Small Claims Court!!!

 

I wonder how long it will before someone does .... :-S

If you did you would certainly lose. As there is no question that the a frame is legal. It the fact that the action of towing a car with one is supposedly illegal in spain.

 

You're just being daft now Peter ... I ain't thick!!! I fully understand that, and have from the very beginning of this whole saga, from previous threads on the forum. *-)

 

I was talking about the 'claim' that is apparently made that it's use in Spain is legal .... ie, towing one vehicle with another [using the A-frame] is permitted which it is not. :-S

[Guest peter]

O/k how could you take the supplier to court for something that is apparently legal (your words). You would still lose. :D

[DJP]

Most A frame users in Spain who have been fined are paying 40 to 100 euros in fines. 40 euro being the most common and some as little as 28 euros.

I would just wonder WHY this guy has been fined a MASSIVE 500 euro?

Was there another problem with the vehicle/s that attracted such a large fine?

I know it still is illegal in some peoples eyes, "Spanish bandits", but why such a large fine, were they genuine officers or bogus?

For a 40 euro fine I will take the risk, for 500 euro NO CHANCE!

[Keithl]

But if you read one of the links posted you'll find he actually got off with paying 250 euros.

 

Keith.

[BGD]

DJP - 2012-04-03 8:29 PM

 

Most A frame users in Spain who have been fined are paying 40 to 100 euros in fines. 40 euro being the most common and some as little as 28 euros.

I would just wonder WHY this guy has been fined a MASSIVE 500 euro?

Was there another problem with the vehicle/s that attracted such a large fine?

I know it still is illegal in some peoples eyes, "Spanish bandits", but why such a large fine, were they genuine officers or bogus?

For a 40 euro fine I will take the risk, for 500 euro NO CHANCE!

 

 

 

 

What?

Did you actually read the report at all?

 

 

He was NOT fined €500; he was fined €250.

 

 

And please could you quote the source for your claim that the most common A-framing fine is 40 euros, etc.

[jhorsf]

When is a car a trailer? in the uk when it is towed on an aframe that seems to be the only argument in Spain

[malc d]

jhorsf - 2012-04-03 10:39 PM

 

When is a car a trailer? in the uk when it is towed on an aframe that seems to be the only argument in Spain

 

 

Why DO people keep mentioning the UK ?

 

In Spain it is illegal to tow a vehicle that has its' wheels on the ground - regardless of what it is being towed with.

 

:-(

[Mel B]

peter - 2012-04-02 10:30 PM

 

O/k how could you take the supplier to court for something that is apparently legal (your words). You would still lose. :D

 

I'm talking about the 'claim' made by the supplier that it is legal to use in Spain, not that it IS legal to use in Spain ... oh I give up! *-)

[Guest peter]

Best thing to do Mel. You can't argue with an idiot. (lol)

[Derek Uzzell]

DJP - 2012-04-03 8:29 PM

 

Most A frame users in Spain who have been fined are paying 40 to 100 euros in fines. 40 euro being the most common and some as little as 28 euros.

I would just wonder WHY this guy has been fined a MASSIVE 500 euro?

Was there another problem with the vehicle/s that attracted such a large fine?

I know it still is illegal in some peoples eyes, "Spanish bandits", but why such a large fine, were they genuine officers or bogus?

For a 40 euro fine I will take the risk, for 500 euro NO CHANCE!

 

There's a posting by hymer1942 on page 2 of the following earlier lengthy thread

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25123&start=31

 

saying that the Spanish police sought to fine him €670 for A-frame towing. There's absolutely no doubt that, in his case, the police were genuinely police. Perhaps BGD could research why the on-the-spot fines seem to differ for (apparently) the same offence?

[pepe63xnotuse]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-04-04 9:28 AM

 

Perhaps BGD could research why the on-the-spot fines seem to differ for (apparently) the same offence?

 

But the "amount" shouldn't really matter,should it?..it could £5 or £500...It's the fact that it's been deemed "illegal" that's the important point...

 

..Maybe they employ a variable tarrif?...with the more,arrogant and obstinate an A framer behaves(..waving a dog eared photocopy of an email from the small engineering workshop who supplied the frame or those who think "..if it's only a few euros,I'll ignore their law and take the chance." etc),getting the higher fine..? (lol)

[Derek Uzzell]

malc d - 2012-04-03 10:54 PM

 

jhorsf - 2012-04-03 10:39 PM

 

When is a car a trailer? in the uk when it is towed on an aframe that seems to be the only argument in Spain

 

 

Why DO people keep mentioning the UK ?

 

In Spain it is illegal to tow a vehicle that has its' wheels on the ground - regardless of what it is being towed with.

 

:-(

 

The argument used by UK A-frame suppliers (and by many UK A-frame users) is that, if A-frame towing is deemed to be a legal practice in the UK, then the practice MUST also be legal in ALL other EU states. It's absolutely critical that this argument is understood, as it's the only potential defence a UK motorcaravanner can realistically offer if prosecuted outside the UK for A-frame towing.

 

The argument insists that, despite Spain having a national law banning one motor vehicle from towing another, this national law does not apply to visiting UK A-framers because A-frame towing is deemed to be legal in the UK.

 

If that argument is flawed, then UK motorcaravanners A-framing outside the UK will be wide open to prosecution in Spain or in any EU state that has a national 'no towing' law similar to Spain's. If the argument has legal weight, then it MIGHT be acceptable as a defence if prosecuted for A-framing in Spain, or at least to claim a refund of a fine retrospectively.

 

I'm not in any way suggesting that the argument has credibility: I'm just saying that this is the argument that's used and it has always been at the very root of the A-framing-abroad legality controversy.

[bolero boy]

pepe63 - 2012-04-04 9:44 AM

 

But the "amount" shouldn't really matter,should it?..it could £5 or £500...It's the fact that it's been deemed "illegal" that's the important point...

I have no view on the A Frame thread except to say that the level of fine would surely hold sway as to wether you would 'risk it'.

This is one of the huge problems in Britain at the moment, a lack of deterrent.

A tiny slap on the wrist wont make people stop and thik about their actions, and they certainly wont desist just because it's deemed 'illegal'.

See.................drug abuse, benefit fraud, riot, disoder, mugging, murder, A-Frame abuse.............etc.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Oh yes I agree Chris..

My comment was really in response to Derek's post questioning why the amount varied....and also to those who seem hell bent on ignoring a well publicised foreign law(..and seemingly treating any risk of a fine as being worthwhile *-) )

 

;-)

[Derek Uzzell]

pepe63 - 2012-04-04 9:44 AM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2012-04-04 9:28 AM

 

Perhaps BGD could research why the on-the-spot fines seem to differ for (apparently) the same offence?

 

But the "amount" shouldn't really matter,should it?..it could £5 or £500...It's the fact that it's been deemed "illegal" that's the important point...

 

..Maybe they employ a variable tarrif?...with the more,arrogant and obstinate an A framer behaves(..waving a dog eared photocopy of an email from the small engineering workshop who supplied the frame or those who think "..if it's only a few euros,I'll ignore their law and take the chance." etc),getting the higher fine..? (lol)

 

Spain (like most countries) plainly does have sliding-scale fines for certain motoring offences. For example

 

http://www.myspain.es/forum/motoring-spain/46337-new-speeding-fines-points-new-110-km-h-restrictions-motorways-spain.html

 

However, it's worth exploring why there are apparently such variations in the fines that are being imposed for the Spanish A-frame towing offence. Whatever the nationality of a police force, where on-the-spot fines are concerned commonsense dictates that there must be published official guidance as to the appropriate size of the fine for each type of offence.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-04-04 10:12 AM

.... Whatever the nationality of a police force, where on-the-spot fines are concerned commonsense dictates that there must be published official guidance as to the appropriate size of the fine for each type of offence.

 

Personally,I'd probably give the higher amount to the cops which had the guns .... (lol)

[BGD]

pepe63 - 2012-04-04 10:15 AM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2012-04-04 10:12 AM

.... Whatever the nationality of a police force, where on-the-spot fines are concerned commonsense dictates that there must be published official guidance as to the appropriate size of the fine for each type of offence.

 

Personally,I'd probably give the higher amount to the cops which had the guns .... (lol)

 

 

 

Ummmm........that'll be all of them in Spain then.

All Police Officers here in Spain carry side-arms: Polica Local, Policia Nacional, and Guardia Civil.

 

If stopped, then do what they tell you to do. Immediately. Whilst smiling, and with your hands in plain view.

Don't argue, get aggressive, wave your arms about, shout, or shove photocopied foreign language notes about "it just might be legal in the UK, thus it MUST be legal in every Johnny Foreigner country on Earth, regardless of their national laws" in their faces.

Really. Don't. You will make them annoyed. And you don't want to make them annoyed.

 

They are NOT like the now-castrated "Politically correct" apologies for a Police "service" that the UK now suffers from. In Spain they are a FORCE which maintains law and order; with force whenever necessary.

 

[olley]

I remember around 30 years ago going to the Police station in La Jonquera at about 3am, my sil had lost her passport and been told at the border to go back and report it, after banging on the closed door it was opened by two coppers with machine guns, as they seemed to be saying "f" off in Spanish while waving these guns, we decided it wasn't that important. :-D (lol)

 

Ian

[Syd]

 

The poor old Spanish police seem to be getting a pretty bad press on here but after several years of visiting Spain all I can say is that I have only ever found them nothing but helpful and civil people.

 

Remember they have had to face over the years many vicious groups of people who have had the police in their sights and this has made them "Cautious" if that is the correct word to use :D :D

[Derek Uzzell]

It might be interesting to ask if anyone can think of a motoring practice that is legal in one EU state and, because of that legality, can legally be carried out in another EU state despite the latter state having a national law that forbids the practice.

 

In the UK there is no legal requirement for drivers to carry a warning-triangle in their vehicles, but this 'non-requirement' does not override the national laws of, say, France or Spain that do demand that a triangle be carried. If you are a UK driver travelling in France or Spain, you are legally required to carry a triangle in those EU states even though you don't have to in the UK.

 

Vice versa, a French or Spanish driver's requirement to carry a triangle in their own country does not transfer to another EU state that lacks that requirement (eg. the UK). If you are a French or Spanish driver travelling in the UK, you are not legally required to carry a triangle here even though you do have to back home.

 

France has a national law prohibiting use of gas appliances in a moving vehicle, whereas the UK (apparently) has no such regulation. This law applies to all drivers, French or otherwise. But there is nowadays an EU Directive that allows a gas-heating system meeting specific safey criteria to be used in a moving vehicle and, as this Directive applies EU-wide, it overrides the French law for French drivers as well as for non-French drivers travelling in that country. However, the EU gas-heater Directive does not authorise motorcaravanners (French or otherwise) to run a gas-fridge 'en route' in France, though they can do it in the UK if they so choose as we have no law prohibiting the practice.

 

There may be the occasional oddity - for example, in Spain one warning triangle is compulsory for non-Spanish registered vehicles and two for Spanish registered vehicles - but the general rule is that, if an EU state has a national motoring law (and there's no overriding EU Directive) then that EU state's own drivers, plus drivers 'temporarily' visiting that state, must all comply with that law.

 

If (as seems probable) it turns out that the idea is unique that motorcaravanners being able to legally A-frame tow in the UK can thus do this legally in other EU states that nationally forbid the practice, then it's most unlikely that things are going to change for the better.

 

[BGD]

Derek - Good question - to which I think we both know the answer.

 

 

 

One area that I would urge a little caution on is the popular temptation to view an (or any) EU Directive as a type of supra-national law for any EU Member State.

It is NOT.

 

 

An EU Directive is an International Treaty obligation to the EU Member States that are party to that Directive ( ie have not "opted out", as some Member States have reserved the right to do from some areas of EU-wide policy....ie the UK), to at some point introduce into their own national law the measures necessary to implement that particular policy in their own country.

 

I know that the difference is picky and pedantic, but in this case it is very important.

Because:- just because an EU Directive has been signed off in Brussels, it does NOT become law in any Member State until or unless that Member State chooses to pass and implement it's own domestic national laws to give effect within their country to that EU Directive. Even if they do, it will be that countries INTERPRETATION of what they think the EU Directive means, for them.

If a country fails to implement an EU Directive, for years, decades, or never, then that EU Directive is NOT law in that Member State.

 

Citizens there can whine; they can go to the press, they can apply political pressure for implementation; but they cannot use or rely upon that non-implemented EU Directive as law in their country.

 

Thus EU Directives are not laws; and cannot be used/relied upon as such within any EU Member State. It is ONLY the properly passed domestic law and regulation of that country which counts in that country.

 

 

 

 

Everyone asleep now?

 

[jhorsf]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-04-04 9:54 AM

 

malc d - 2012-04-03 10:54 PM

 

jhorsf - 2012-04-03 10:39 PM

 

When is a car a trailer? in the uk when it is towed on an aframe that seems to be the only argument in Spain

 

 

Why DO people keep mentioning the UK ?

 

In Spain it is illegal to tow a vehicle that has its' wheels on the ground - regardless of what it is being towed with.

 

:-(

 

The argument used by UK A-frame suppliers (and by many UK A-frame users) is that, if A-frame towing is deemed to be a legal practice in the UK, then the practice MUST also be legal in ALL other EU states. It's absolutely critical that this argument is understood, as it's the only potential defence a UK motorcaravanner can realistically offer if prosecuted outside the UK for A-frame towing.

 

The argument insists that, despite Spain having a national law banning one motor vehicle from towing another, this national law does not apply to visiting UK A-framers because A-frame towing is deemed to be legal in the UK.

 

If that argument is flawed, then UK motorcaravanners A-framing outside the UK will be wide open to prosecution in Spain or in any EU state that has a national 'no towing' law similar to Spain's. If the argument has legal weight, then it MIGHT be acceptable as a defence if prosecuted for A-framing in Spain, or at least to claim a refund of a fine retrospectively.

 

I'm not in any way suggesting that the argument has credibility: I'm just saying that this is the argument that's used and it has always been at the very root of the A-framing-abroad legality controversy.

 

 

 

I put it as clearly as possible and still no one seems to understand, it becomes a trailer when using an aframe under UK law, not a vehicle, that is your only defence, people have had the fines returned in the past when they have fought this I believe

 

 

http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/a-frames.shtml