Lorpet Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 I have a Bessacarr E645 yr 2000 with 2.8 diesel and I am seeking a method of charging the leisure battery whilst on the move. None of the control pannel switch positions seem to direct the charge to the leisure bettery from the altenator. I have found a cigar lighter to cigar lighter connector used to start cars with flat batteries and promising to transfer 5A at 13.5v from one to the other. As I have a take off from the leisure battery to run the TV I thought this might be the answer. Has any one any experience of this type of link or any opinions on any likely problems. Lorpet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Hi I dont know your van however I cannot beleive that it doesnt charge leasure battery from alternator. Sounds like you have a wiring issue somewere. Quick google came up with this which maybe usefull http://www.motorhomefacts.com/forum-printtopic-1-113962-0-0-asc-viewresult-1.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinklystarfish Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 It will more than likely be an automatic process on your 'van, it's not usually necessary to select a switch. On 'vans that age there is normally a relay that switches from the alternator and diverts charging current to both starter and leisure batteries while the engine is running. Sometimes there are more sophisticated methods but the principles are the same. Unless you are saying you know this system is not working, you have no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 With a multi meter set to cover the 12 - 20 volts dc range check the voltage at the leisure battery terminals without the engine running. If it is 12.0 to 12.5 ish it needs a recharge If it is 12.7 to 12.8 it is fully charged Start the engine and check the leisure battery terminal voltage again. If the battery voltage has not changed you have a fault - often nothing worse than a dirty or failed fuse on the split charging relay often to be found just under the bonnet close to the battery but it depends on the van and system. With the engine off, take the fuses out, check them all and clean or replace with identical values then try again. If the voltage is now over 14 - about 14.4 is ideal it is working OK If the fuses or any connections get warm or hot during charging that is a sure sign of a poor connection and often just a good clean is all that is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulmold Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Lorpet - 2012-04-24 1:52 PM I have a Bessacarr E645 yr 2000 with 2.8 diesel and I am seeking a method of charging the leisure battery whilst on the move. None of the control pannel switch positions seem to direct the charge to the leisure bettery from the altenator. I have found a cigar lighter to cigar lighter connector used to start cars with flat batteries and promising to transfer 5A at 13.5v from one to the other. As I have a take off from the leisure battery to run the TV I thought this might be the answer. Has any one any experience of this type of link or any opinions on any likely problems. Lorpet Leisure battery should be charged automatically when engine running meaning you shouldn't have to switch anything to make it. Get a voltmeter and attach to leisure battery before starting engine and note voltage, then start engine and check reading again. Reading before should be around 12.5 v, with engine running it should read around 14 v, if it does, your leisure battery is being charged. Sorry, posted at same time as previous posting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Agree with Tracker. Bessacars were fitted with Sargent PSU and the split charge relay as suggested. On my Fiat this relay is on top of the engine under a plastic cover. There are two/three relays and fuses one of which could have popped. All these need checked first as you should not be needing to try and charge through cigar socket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 The leisure battery should charge from the alternator as standard, and (AFAIK) the panel setting should have no effect at all on this method of charging. (This is a fairly simple circuit). ....the wiring diagrams for Swift Group vehicles on the Sargent website only start at 2003, so I can't confirm the facts, but the following is my understanding: There should only be two components in circuit between the alternator output and the leisure battery; a split charge relay, and a fuse (probably 20 amp). This charging circuit is simple, and does not route via the panel or other electronics. Hence, if it isn't charging whilst driving it is highly suspect that you have either a wiring fault (a break somewhere) or one (or both) of these two components is "duff". It would be relatively easy to diagnose with a meter, but if you haven't got one, I would suggest the following checks: The most likely cause is a blown fuse in the charging circuit. I would try to find this and check it - it is likely to be close to the leisure battery, on the live feed (and probably 20 amps). (note that, if this fuse is blown, the battery will not charge, and neither will it supply the habitation circuits. So, if you can get any power whatsoever to the habitation electrics from the leisure battery (off hook-up with the battery switch on the panel at the 'caravan', not the "vehicle" position), then the fuse must be intact). The next suspect is the split-charge relay, which really is best tested by putting a meter across the outputs - if you haven't got one, then an auto-electrician (or substitution with a new relay) is the best option. Swift typically mounted them in the engine bay, sometimes hiding them behind existing covers, and you can find it/them by following the wiring from the alternator). If both these components are OK (and the alternator is charging the vehicle battery OK, and, of course, the leisure battery isn't entirely dead) then it will most likely be a simple wiring discontinuity. It also occurs to me that if you can recharge the leisure battery whilst stationery and on hook-up, then the fuse must be OK, and thus the split charge relay and/or the associated wiring would be at fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorpet Posted April 24, 2012 Author Share Posted April 24, 2012 From Lorpet, thanks for the input, I have carried out the voltage test with the motor running and no current gets through. I will have another look but the car to car charger I found seems like it might be the answer. Has anyone used on of these things in a MH or car environment I am a bit cautious as I am not familiar with the wiring detail of the MH and I do not want to "fry" anything. Lorpet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Lorpet I note from your August 2011 posting that you've owned your Bessacarr for some 10 years and toured extensively in it. Presumably, during that period, you must have relied completely on campsites with 230V electric hook-ups to recharge your leisure battery if it cannot be charged via the vehicle's alternator? As has already been advised, it would be usual in your motorhome's case for the leisure-battery to be charged automatically (employing a 'split-charge relay') when the vehicle's engine is running. If that's not happening, then it may simply be due to a loose connection at the relay or a blown fuse. Again as has been adviised, it should be easy to check with a voltmeter whether or not the leisure-battery's voltage increases sharply to above 14V when the vehicle's motor begins to run. I'd certainly advise against the car-to-car charger ploy - it definitely comes into the 'bodge' category, particularly when what's probably a minor glitch could easily be rectified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sshortcircuit Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Lorpet - 2012-04-24 2:45 PM From Lorpet, thanks for the input, I have carried out the voltage test with the motor running and no current gets through. I will have another look but the car to car charger I found seems like it might be the answer. Has anyone used on of these things in a MH or car environment I am a bit cautious as I am not familiar with the wiring detail of the MH and I do not want to "fry" anything. Lorpet Ok spent a few pound on a charger or spend a few pence on a fuse. You should find out what is wrong with the existing circuit first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 Lorpet - 2012-04-24 2:45 PM From Lorpet, thanks for the input, I have carried out the voltage test with the motor running and no current gets through. I will have another look but the car to car charger I found seems like it might be the answer. Has anyone used on of these things in a MH or car environment I am a bit cautious as I am not familiar with the wiring detail of the MH and I do not want to "fry" anything. Lorpet ....the charging circuit involved is so simple that I would not try to bypass it, but simply diagnose the problem and fix it. If you have a meter, you probably only need to progressively measure the voltages at a couple of points to diagnose the issue. The picture below is an extract of a 2004 Bessacarr wiring diagram showing the simple charging circuit from the alternator (the rest is much more complicated!); it should be similar enough to yours. You need to find the split charge relay(s) under the bonnet (S/be one for the firdge and one for the leisuere battery) and the fuses mounted next to them. Check the fuses, and the functioning of the relays (both should output alternator voltage with the engine running). Also check the fuse near the leisure battery. NOTE I was probably wrong about there being a single fuse in-line in the leisure battery charging circuit - this diagram shows one (in a set of four) next to the split charge relays, and another one next to the leisure battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted April 24, 2012 Share Posted April 24, 2012 I would look at all the fuses and connections first as after 12 years it is most likely that a dirty or failed fuse or damaged connection is at fault. These systems are pretty fool proof and generally more reliable and easier to use and to fix than the more modern ones - apart from where they located the relays just under the bonnet in the line of all the water sprayed up from the road! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travelling Tyke Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Hello Lorpet, The place to check first off is the connection from the Alternator to the relays.......... On our 2000 Bessie it was connected to the "Engine" ccts with a Blue "scotchlock" Crimp ( and I dont have a good thing to say about them) which over time had failed and prevented the charging relays to energise. IF it is in the same place as ours then it is the loom to the lower right of the battery. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinklystarfish Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 More awesome Swift Group build quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 crinklystarfish - 2012-04-25 11:04 AM More awesome Swift Group build quality. That's a bit unfair - any twelve year old van is likely to develop problems and at least with this one it should be cheap and simple to fix - plus the Sargant control units are UK made with good back up and helpful advice from the factory - which is more than can be said for some of their European counterparts if the experience of dodgy electronics by some members of this forum is anything to go by! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travelling Tyke Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Hello again Lorpet, Below are a couple of Addresses for your motorhome books from the Swift group site. Hope you find them useful. http://www.swiftgroup.co.uk/uploads/HandBooks/motorhomes/2000%20MH%20Tech%20Books/9830017%20Bess%20MH%20Service%20Book%202000.pdf http://www.swiftgroup.co.uk/uploads/HandBooks/motorhomes/Previous%20handbooks/9830014%20MH%20Owners%20Handbook%202000.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Tracker - 2012-04-25 1:01 PM crinklystarfish - 2012-04-25 11:04 AM More awesome Swift Group build quality. That's a bit unfair - any twelve year old van is likely to develop problems and at least with this one it should be cheap and simple to fix - plus the Sargant control units are UK made with good back up and helpful advice from the factory - which is more than can be said for some of their European counterparts if the experience of dodgy electronics by some members of this forum is anything to go by! I think the one-liner criticism relates primarily to the use of a Scotchlok connector rather than the consequential fault. Purists may loathe them, but Swift is certainly not the only motorhome converter to employ them to provide power to an important function - the cable for the 'step out' warning light for my Hobby's original manual entrance-step was Scotchlok-connected. If use of a Scotchlok connector on a motorhome equates to crap build quality, then add Hobby to the list of offenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinklystarfish Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Using such a connector for such a fundamental function as leisure battery charging is an appalling state of affairs and demonstrates little care for product quality / reliability.I stand by my criticism.Perhaps Tracker missed the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 crinklystarfish - 2012-04-25 8:11 PMUsing such a connector for such a fundamental function as leisure battery charging is an appalling state of affairs and demonstrates little care for product quality / reliability.I stand by my criticism.Perhaps Tracker missed the point.A difficult choice - a Scotchlok connector that eventually causes a leisure-battery charging system to cease working (Bessacarr), or a Scotchlok connector that might result in a motorhome's entrance step scything off the legs of somebody walking on the pavement (Hobby).If you are suggesting that use of Scotchlok connectors is a sure sign of poor build quality, then I would not disagree, but I bet they are used (or have been used) by more motorhome manufacturers than Swift Group and Hobby.The important point is surely not whether Swift (or Hobby) are crap at building motorhomes, but that a forum member has advised that, back in 2000 (when Lorpet's motorhome was built), Bessacarr was using Scotchlok connectors for the part of their motorhomes' wiring that is relevant to Lorpet's problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinklystarfish Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Agreed that that is indeed a crucial point in the context of this thread, but, as is the case with most of these 'conversations', other matters come up which raise awareness and allow a more informed and critical overview of our hobby in general. I don't think that's a bad thing. I think build quality across the industry is dubious and inconsistent, and that sometimes extends to the same brands across epochs. I don't lose sleep in pointing out examples of dodgy build in the public domain. If people looking to spend tens of thousands on their next 'van see a Scotchlock supporting a critical function, especially if exposed to vibration or the elements, then - if they didn't before - they now just might want to look further into just how much care and attention the manufacturer has taken with the rest of the build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorpet Posted April 26, 2012 Author Share Posted April 26, 2012 From Lorpet, Many thanks for all the informaton on the charging of the leisure battery. I have looked at the diagrams but it is still not clear what should happen. The lead from the altenator warning light operates the relays and cuts off the supply to the EMC relay, when the engine is running, which cuts off the facilities as you would want. This also seems to prevent the current from the alternator from getting to the leisure battery via the relays as well. Is there an additonal lead, not shown on the circuit diagram, which would charge the leisure battery. Perhaps I am not understanding what I am looking at. Lorpet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Is this link any help? http://www.motts.org/SPLIT%20CHARGING%20SYSTEM.htm The wiring may not exactly match your motorhome's, but the principles will be the same. In your case you've got an EMC 'isolator relay' as well as the split-charge and fridge relays, but that should really not affect your leisure-battery being charged by the alternator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Lorpet - 2012-04-26 5:04 PM From Lorpet, Many thanks for all the informaton on the charging of the leisure battery. I have looked at the diagrams but it is still not clear what should happen. The lead from the altenator warning light operates the relays and cuts off the supply to the EMC relay, when the engine is running, which cuts off the facilities as you would want. This also seems to prevent the current from the alternator from getting to the leisure battery via the relays as well. Is there an additonal lead, not shown on the circuit diagram, which would charge the leisure battery. Perhaps I am not understanding what I am looking at. Lorpet Lorpet, I don't think you are reading the wiring diagram that Robinhood kindly posted, correctly. If you follow the Red wire from the Vehicle battery +ve terminal it changes to a Brown wire running to the pair of relays top left. The LH relay is for the fridge and the RH is the Split Charge as labelled. When the engine is running the Alternator Field Circuit becomes live and pulls over both relays. This then feeds current to the Fridge via the White/Orange wire and the Leisure battery and Control Panel via the Brown/Blue wire. This Brown/Blue wire splits and one leg goes to the Control Panel and the other down to the Leisure Battery through the 25 Amp fuse. This wire goes know where near the EMC relay which is NOT shown on this extract. The Control Panel connection will connect to the EMC relay cutting off power to the habitation electrics and probably displaying a message along the lines of "Engine started, system disabled". Does this make sense? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorpet Posted April 26, 2012 Author Share Posted April 26, 2012 Keith, I looked at the diagram and discovered that the wiring of the split charger relay contacts are different to tha shown in the diagram that came with the instruction book. My diagram shows the brown/blue wire connected to the relay, suposedly. in the idle condition which connects to the centre contact. When operated the brown/ blue is disconnected. The other diagram shows it the other way round. I haveattatched a copy of my diagram for clarity. Maybe the convention for MH wiring is that relays are shown in the operated position. However, I can make the circuits work for switching the supply from leisure battert to motor battery on my diagram but not on the one sent when the altenator is not generating as the contact has no wire on it.. The manual says they both charge whe driving and I must presume it works but how is still a mystery. Lorpet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorpet Posted April 26, 2012 Author Share Posted April 26, 2012 Keith, I looked at the diagram and discovered that the wiring of the split charger relay contacts are different to tha shown in the diagram that came with the instruction book. My diagram shows the brown/blue wire connected to the relay, suposedly. in the idle condition which connects to the centre contact. When operated the brown/ blue is disconnected. The other diagram shows it the other way round. I haveattatched a copy of my diagram for clarity. Maybe the convention for MH wiring is that relays are shown in the operated position. However, I can make the circuits work for switching the supply from leisure battert to motor battery on my diagram but not on the one sent when the altenator is not generating as the contact has no wire on it.. The manual says they both charge whe driving and I must presume it works but how is still a mystery. Lorpet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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