Reversing with an A frame

[briff]

IF these a frames are illegal in spain,why have they just refunded 40 euro fine ater we lodged a complaint with traffico in castillon.

[Dave Newell]

Brian Kirby - 2012-07-13 12:59 PM

RogerC - 2012-07-13 9:22 AM

Dave Newell - 2012-07-13 6:58 AMIts pretty simple really, trailer legislation as I understand it demands that the outfit must be able to be driven in reverse under the sole control of the driver of the towing vehicle. As the OP has demonstrated and many others have agreed this is just not possible for more than a few feel in a straight line. Ergo A frames DO NOT COMPLY with UK trailer legislation.D.

 

Dave that is a strong statement seeing as the DfT can't come to the same conclusion as you with all their 'legal' heads on.......I'll stick to the premise that they ARE LEGAL until incontrovertible proof to the contrary is provided by 'the Establishment'.............barrack room lawyers (just my old military head searching for the way to express myself so no offence intended) opinions don't really hold much water when it comes down to the realities of life.

Two things Roger. First, the DfT is not giving a legal opinion. Second, the opinion they give is qualified. The qualification is merely that the A-frame outfit can be considered as a trailer - providing it complies with the necessary regulations. So clearly, if it doesn't comply, it isn't a trailer, it is a car on tow. You are correct: barrack room lawyers opinions hold no water. Neither, for that matter do real lawyers opinions, which is why they have to argue their cases before a judge! :-) There is an unkind expression, rather blunt, but it illustrates a thread that endlessly pervades these discussions. "You can always tell a closed mind, but not much." :-) Far too often, in response to a query from a poster on the subject of A-frames, one sees wise and sensible cautions rubbished by those who merely want them to be legal because they are a convenience, and who go on to stand logic on its head to try to prove their point. In the UK, their use is not banned, which allows them to be used. Outside the UK the situation is different, and this is very relevant because many more folk read these forums than contribute, and many folk do want to travel abroad. There will be no legal redress against sellers if the law is changed, how could there be? When bought they were deemed (but always subject to that qualifying proviso) legal. If the law is changed and they are no longer legal, the inevitable response would be: "that was then, this is now"!If Bruce is correct about the illegality of their use in Portugal, that means that they cannot legally be used in France, Spain, or Portugal. People need to understand this, because so many visit those countries. If they understand where they stand legally, how they then choose to react is entirely their own decision. If they do not understand that difference, and are left in ignorance, they are liable to discover at some point that ignorance is not bliss! I simply ask, is that fair?

Thank you Brian, I rest my case.D.

[Brian Kirby]

briff - 2012-07-13 5:52 PM

 

IF these a frames are illegal in spain,why have they just refunded 40 euro fine ater we lodged a complaint with traffico in castillon.

Briff, you are doing it again! :-) For the umpteenth time, it is not the A-frame that is illegal in Spain, it is the act of towing one vehicle with another, by whatever means.

 

If you do a search setting BGD as the author, A-frame as the keywords, Motorhome Matters as the forum, and time to one year, you find a transcript in Spanish, and a translation into English, of the relevant Spanish legislation.

 

As to why they refunded your fine, who knows, but if you were towing with an A-frame, it is not because the fine was wrongly levied!

 

Why not ask them for the explanation, they refunded the fine, so they must know? Maybe they came to the conclusion that fining tourists for minor traffic offences is bad for business.

[RogerC]

OK so in light of the foregoing posts I have a few questions to ask and then like 'A Dragon' I'm out...........

 

If using an A frame to tow your car does not meet UK law in terms of the requirements for the manoeuvrability of a 'trailer' thereby making it's use illegal why is that law not enforced?

 

Why has the use of A frames in this manner in the UK not been questioned by legislative bodies and why do the police not prosecute? 

 

Lastly if the use of A frames is illegal why has Trading Standards not clamped down on or closed down those manufacturers who continue to supply/fit said A frames who continue to claim their use is legal?

 

[clay]

nice one expert (!) (!) rightly by reversing a car behind the van is a prob as said you can if the front wheels are straight you can lock the ignition and she will go back, on my car a tow i would also need to disconnect the brake cable to stop them coming on. but on my car a tow i have a jockey wheel which takes me a few seconds to nip out disconnect the car and i can reverse it anywhere i wish .simples.. as far as your caravan is concerned have you ever met a laarge caravan in a lane, i did the other day , i was bwhind the thing and a bus coming the other way the bus would not go bsck and the guy in the caravan was outside saying he could not reverse it,, in the end it shunted it for him,, he had only ever reversed it on site using movers,, now it does seem that the art of caravan reversing has gone out of the window on sites with the advent of movers as you will see if you are sitting outside your van and watching some of the performances ;-) ;-)

[Brian Kirby]

RogerC - 2012-07-14 12:00 PMOK so in light of the foregoing posts I have a few questions to ask and then like 'A Dragon' I'm out...........

 

If using an A frame to tow your car does not meet UK law in terms of the requirements for the manoeuvrability of a 'trailer' thereby making it's use illegal why is that law not enforced?

 

Why has the use of A frames in this manner in the UK not been questioned by legislative bodies and why do the police not prosecute? 

 

Lastly if the use of A frames is illegal why has Trading Standards not clamped down on or closed down those manufacturers who continue to supply/fit said A frames who continue to claim their use is legal?

Blimey Roger! Whether or not a law is enforced makes no difference to the existence of the law. You have to know the law, and then decide for yourself whether you intend to comply. You can't expect men in blue uniforms the leap out at you endlessly wagging their fingers to keep you on the straight and narrow. What ever kind of country would that be?I can guess that absence of enforcement it is simply because of two things. First, because, knowing that reversing with an A-frame is difficult, most drivers avoid doing so like the plague. Second, because for a case to be brought, you would have to demonstrate the deficiency with the police present, and most drivers who get in a fix don't do so under the eagle eye of the fuzz! You may as well ask why I am not immediately clapped in irons when I exceed the speed limit. :-SAgain a guess, but, I would imagine the matter has never been drawn to the attention of the legislative bodies as being a problem? Is it a problem? So why add legislation when the technical requirement is already clear?As above, before TS will clamp down on anything (but do they really do that?) there has to be evidence of danger or nuisance. Where is the danger? Where the nuisance? What grounds would TS have for doing so? If cars on A-frames were causing mayhem across the country, doubtless something might happen.This concerns a possible failure to comply with a technical regulation. If that failure results in a serious accident then the driver will doubtless be prosecuted for having an unsafe vehicle. If the driver's defence were that he relied on the expert advice of the seller that his A-frame was a) legal and b) safe, he might have his penalty reduced, and the seller might be drawn in to explain what he had claimed, and to prove his level of expertise.Did you not read of the chap whose Smart caught fire, apparently because his braking linkage did not adequately release, so causing the rear brakes to overheat? The fire brigade and the police were called to sort out the mess, but the whole matter was left for him, his insurers, and the seller of the A-frame to argue out. The seller, unsurprisingly, subsequently claimed the buyer had not correctly adjusted the linkage. The insurers eventually settled. No-one was prosecuted. You would need an incident on the scale of the chap who "parked" his car and its trailer carrying another car on the east coast main line, derailing a train, before anyone was convinced legislation was warranted. That is why you have to make your own judgement, based on proper evidence, as to whether it reasonably complies with current regulations. Arguments along the lines of 'E told me it were all right Guv' just won't cut it! :-D

[colin]

RogerC - 2012-07-14 12:00 PM

 

Lastly if the use of A frames is illegal why has Trading Standards not clamped down on or closed down those manufacturers who continue to supply/fit said A frames who continue to claim their use is legal?

 

Trading Standards are only realy interested in keeping multinational companies happy by cracking down on conterfieters, if they recieve enough complaints about a product they might just do something but don't count on it, 'been there done that got the teeshirt'

[RogerC]

One last response and I'm done because like other threads on this topic there are so many differing views.

 

I appreciate what you're saying Brian but what I am looking at here is the fact that there are many companies producing, and claiming their system is legal in the UK.  If this is not true then are they are all guilty of illegal advertising and essentially committing an act of fraud by claiming legality which in essence gains them financial advantage (sales) by deception.

 

Given the fact that hundreds of thousands of miles have doubtlessly been covered towing with this method we have yet to hear of a single prosecution (in the UK) for doing so.  There are a great many over zealous enforcers of the law out there and the percentages seem to lean towards the fact that at least one of them would have tried to raise his 'you're nicked' rate by pulling an A framer over...........but we have heard nothing.  Now when folks have been fined for eating whilst driving and more recently a chap has been fined for allegedly taking his eye off the road for a few seconds to eye up a nice example of the female form you would think that at least one A frame illegality case would have been brought to bear but no it hasn't........why not I ask?

 

[Brian Kirby]

RogerC - 2012-07-15 9:29 AM............I appreciate what you're saying Brian but what I am looking at here is the fact that there are many companies producing, and claiming their system is legal in the UK.  If this is not true then are they are all guilty of illegal advertising and essentially committing an act of fraud by claiming legality which in essence gains them financial advantage (sales) by deception.

I have not studied the claims made by all the A-frame makers. But I have seen some claims I consider highly dubious; but who is going to challenge those claims? Buyers presumably will not, because they don't want to shoot themselves in the foot. So who else?

 

An absence of cases does not prove legality, it merely proves no case has been brought, leaving the matter of legality open. As previously stated, the question of legality turns on whether a car towed on an A-frame can be considered a trailer and that, in turn, turns on whether it conforms with the necessary regulations. If it doesn't, it is not a trailer, it is a car on tow.

 

My strong suspicion is that some cars, those equipped with a means of charging their brake servos while being towed, may comply with the braking requirement, but will not comply with the requirements for the brake disengaging when being reversed, and will not comply with the requirement that they are able to be reversed. So, one possible pass, two fails - so not a compliant trailer, so merely a car on tow. Other variations on the provision of braking seem to me mere wishful thinking. Also, it must also be the case that what works on one make and model of car, may not work equally well on other makes and models. So, I cannot understand how such sweeping claims can be made for the properties of what, in the final analysis, is merely a dumb detachable drawbar.

 

We just keep on going round this same island. It is not set out in black and white, so you have to judge for yourself. I can only repeat what is my judgement.

 

Given the fact that hundreds of thousands of miles have doubtlessly been covered towing with this method we have yet to hear of a single prosecution (in the UK) for doing so.  ...........

As above, an absence of charge does not prove legality, it merely proves that no case has been brought. As I conjectured previously, put in simpler terms, I suspect this is because the police see no reason to take action, and have more important things to do. Crikey, even in France, where this form of towing is actually illegal, the worst that generally happens is that the odd A-framer gets pulled, and is told to unhitch the car. Why on earth should the UK police pull A-framers on the basis of a possible technical breach of a minor regulation that, at the time, is not obvious, and is not causing danger to anyone? I repeat, you have to judge, for which you need information from a legally credible source, and then make your own decision.

[onecal]

Hi,

Just as Brian has pointed out , a lot have been stopped in France and made de-couple their unit without been fined, as have many, travelled through France without been stopped made de-couple the unit or fined. This year I got chatting to one couple who went to Spain, were not stopped down in Spain but were stopped close to the border in Spain on their return and made de-couple their unit with no fine. On their further return through France they were again stopped (fined and made de-couple their unit after going through a small town) So it looks like a trailer I am afraid to keep within the law. It is a pity as they tighten things up, but things are changing,

Regards,

Brendan

[PeteH]

Hi

 

"Reversing with an A frame"? Why do it?, yes it can be done (in short distances and in a "nearly" straight line and VERY slowly). Fit a "jockey wheel to the "A" frame get out unhitch and it`s FAR quicker than trying reversing!!.

 

Why "A" Frame AT ALL? simples, Try parking a Trailer on a Spanish Campsite (for one)!! Even our own Caravan Club will "look down there noses" at effectively 3 Vehicles on a Pitch!!. Especially if like me you are towing with a 9+M R-V!!.

 

Why has the "A" frame never been Banned?. Not sure, but I suspect because (in the UK) 1) No one has been actually taken to court for it. and like driving 9tonne R-v`s on a B1+E licence (as some do). The courts have never made "case law" out of it Ergo a "grey area".

 

Why do the Spanish and Portuguese make a "big thing" out of something so simple and beneficial? No idea. Its probably as safe as any method. I have never seen a case where any accident has been proved to have been due to "A" framing! (anyone?). However whilst we in GB generally take the view that something is "safe" until proved otherwise. The "Napoleonic" view (guilty until proved innocent remember) is what drives the "continental" approach. Napoleon was a nuisance which ever way you look at it!!! (another "small man" who wanted to rule the world)

 

My personal opinion? That the Spanish and Portuguese Authorities are Particularly Stupid!!. They have failing economies, desperately in need of "tourist income" ,and they ramp up the persecution of those who choose to "A" frame?. The Americans by contrast promote their use, offer sophisticated braking and towing systems, produce data on what Automatic cars WILL tow etc;. to encourage the use and thereby travel and spending!!.

 

I don't care if its legal or not to "A" frame, Its not IMHO Immoral, and that`s good enough for me!!!

 

Pete

 

[Derek Uzzell]

The following link carries (in my view) no-axe-to-grind information on towing with a motorhome:

 

http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/towing/towing-with-a-motorhome/

 

I would have thought that, when a country has laws that prohibit its own national population from doing something, it should be anticipated that such countries would consider that those laws should also apply to non-nationals.

 

There is no doubt that Spain has a law that prohibits Spanish motorcaravanning nationals from towing a car on an A-frame, so why should non-Spanish motorcaravanners driving in that country expect that prohibition not to apply to them?

 

To use a non-motoring analogy, Thailand has been the destination of choice for child-sex tourism because of its legal system and culture, whereas UK (for the same reasons) has not. If motorcaravanners wish to A-frame tow a car with legal impunity, the UK is the country to visit because its 'grey area' towing regulations and the stance of our police regarding A-framing make prosecution highly unlikely. Conversely, Spanish motoring regulations, and the Spanish authorities' preparedness to enforce them, make Spain a risky country for an A-framer to visit if he/she is concerned about being fined for a motoring offence.

 

The differences between UK and 'Napoleonic' law have been discussed in the past, and the 'A-framing is safe' argument has been put forward repeatedly. Differences in the type of law are academic when it comes to the Spanish towing law. Spain has a law that prohibits one motor vehicle towing another: it applies to Spanish nationals (who, consequently, abstain from this towing practice to avoid prosecution), so why should non-Spanish motorists be permitted to do it? The safety of towing a car via an A-frame has never been an issue - it's always been the legality of the practice and methodology that have been potentially problematical.

 

The motorcaravanning A-framing practice is an import from the USA. 30 years ago It did not exist in the UK, as much as anything because the specification of most motorhomes being marketed here made them unsuitable for towing a car. But, just because a practice is legal, promoted and commonplace in the USA, does not automatically make that practice legal (or even desirable) elsewhere. As has been asked before on this forum, would it be considered a Good Thing to have the USA's gun-related laws in the UK?

 

I'm surprised by Brendan's comments.

 

I've read nothing to make me think that many A-framers driving in France have been stopped and made to detach the car from the motorhome. I vaguely recall 'decoupling' being demanded of one UK A-framer at the entrance to a French tunnel, but the regulations for that tunnel explicitly prohibited passage of one motor vehicle towing another.

 

The basic legal argument prohibiting A-framing in France is based on the French Code de la Route containing a specific definition of what constitutes a legal vehicle 'combination', and one motor vehicle towing another is not included in that definition.

 

However, French motorhome magazines and internet forums all concentrate on this argument prohibiting French-national motorcaravanners from A-frame car-towing and I've never seen it claimed that the prohibition applies to UK motorcaravanners. In fact, it seems to be universally believed within the French motorcaravanning community that the UK is the only European country where motorhome A-framing is 100% legal and, because of this, that the French regulation cannot be applied to UK A-framers travelling in France.

 

There's a 2010 MHF thread here that may be of interest

 

http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-79178-days0-orderasc-0.html

 

(I particularly like the French-to-English machine-translation of TOWtal's statement of legality "...the request for this malignant system advances from one dimension to another of the continent...")

 

As plenty of French motorcaravanners seem happy to buy and use an A-frame in their own country, presumably confident that it's legal to do so, and there seem to be no reports of them being prosecuted (now or in the past), it's odd that the A-framing couple Brendan spoke to were fined in France. Although probably impracticable at this stage, it would be worth knowing exactly what offence they were said to have committed.

[onecal]

Hi,

In answering Derek's question, he thought he was ok himself when he was back in France ,but was stopped after going through a small town and given a full documentation check to be told he was not covered to tow a car with an A Frame,,,,but is covered to tow a trailer,,,was fined, and made de couple. This has happened in the past in France, I have witnessed it my self going on a rally to the south of France three years ago, made de couple but not fined. Again Insurance cover being the problem.

Regards,

Brendan