Frank McAuley Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Perhaps some might say I'm in the incorrect section of the forum but I'm aware there are many mhomers towing cars on trailers and perhaps many more who can assist so hopefully I can "tap" your knowledge/advice. I have an Autotrail Delaware with which I now tow a Toyota 1Q3 on a Brian James Micro-Max trailer and I have just returned from a 6 week trip in France. My towing experience is limited but from the outset I was not totally happy with the set-up: there always seemed to be a "pushing" movement from the trailer which made me feel the mhome was in too high a gear even though my speed was approx 55 mph! I have been researching subjects like towball height ;nose-up/down of trailer;brakes catching(incorrectly adjusted);air suspension setting and tyre pressures but have not come to any definitive coclusions. I have also considered fitting a decent stabiliser (AL-KO 3004). Perhaps I just need some more experience towing but so many people have said "they don't seem to notice the trailer is there" whereas I certainly did! I encountered a couple of problems with ferry ramps:- jockey wheel- had to remove and store in mhome; brake rod locator- caught and bent preventing trailer brakes either engaging or disengaging(which I'm not sure) but this was easily straighted with the onboard hammer. I'm sure the system can be "fine-tuned" so perhaps I can have the benefit of your experience please! (lol) :-S :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 From my caravanning experience if it is pushing you it sounds like the over run brakes aren't working property, if you stop quickly if they are working correctly you should feel the trailer pulling you back. Nose weight should be 7% of the gross trailer weight a bit too heavy doesn't usually cause problem but I have known it to cause swaying on one caravan we had, too light you can get swaying and pitching. Never try to lighten the nose weight by increasing the weight at the rear that will cause pitching. The Al-Ko stabiliser will only prevent swaying, a stabiliser is a safety device and should only be used once everything is set up correctly and towing properly they should never be used to mask a problem a good rig should not need a stabiliser and should only be added for peace of mind.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Hi,If it is set up well you will hardly know it's there, sounds like you have answered the problem yourself, as the brakes may not be working and you may have your towball on your Motorhome to low, as you say you had to remove the jockey wheel to get over the loading ramps.Is your trailer big enough for the car you are transporting? The Brian James 185 trailer is better suited to that car.Regards,Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Its a big van with not a great payload. It has a longish rear overhang, which may be the source of your jockey wheel grounding problem. I could not find a towbar listed as an option, but assume it would be a fairly hefty item. I could not find listed a towing limit/GTW on AT's website. However, the Toyota seems to weigh only around 950kg (kerbweight) and the Micro Max MAM is 1,300 with a minimum payload of one tonne, so providing that is within the capability of the AT, all should be fine. As Lenny says, there should be no sense that the trailer is pushing the van, so if it is, I would strongly suspect the braking is not correctly set up. As he says, once the brakes are applied, and the initial slack is taken up, the usual sensation is of an invisible hand retarding the tow vehicle, though this will be less apparent with 1,300Kg trying to retard 4,250Kg. You do need to brake firmly, though not hard, to get the best from overrun brakes. Do you live close enough to get the trailer back to the seller so that they can check the set-up? Lenny is right, you'll need about 7% noseweight (for which the ideal is a caravan noseweight balance), so about 90Kg. This must be within the towbar's plated downforce limit. However, I am confused that the push made you feel the gear was too high, as I would have expected the opposite. I therefore wonder if what you were reading as push may have been drag, necessitating a lower gear. If so, back to the trailer brakes! From the brochure illustration, it looks as though the jockey wheel should be able to be lifted so that it lies completely within the trailer A frame, so that it can not hit the deck. Did you have it lifted to the maximum extent possible? If the trailer was weaving around behind you, as seems implied by your desire for a stabiliser, I again agree with Lenny that you won't fix the weaving that way. First get the set-up right and the trailer stable, then add a stabiliser for added security. The fault will almost certainly be with balance, and too low a noseweight. French caravanners tend to work to 10% noseweight and not 7%, mainly because they can tow at higher speeds, when instability more often becomes apparent. A nose up attitude is bad for stability: the trailer should ideally sit level on level ground when hitched, slightly nose down is fine. I think check braking, which should be perceptible in the van as additional retardation, but otherwise free running with no binding, and check that noseweight - making sure it is not less that 7%, but be prepared to raise it if necessary within the limits of the tow hitch and the towbar. This will be determined by where you stop the car on the trailer bed, so is quite easily adjusted. The optional chocks would then make it easy to consistently find the right place to stop. Check this with the car fuel tank full, so that the effect of a different tank levels will always be to increase, and never to reduce, the noseweight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Hi While marketed for the Toyota IQ 3 the Micro Max does not trailer well with a Motorhome with a long overhang.The Minno Max from Brian James trailers, is far more suitable or in fact the 185 is ideal. Try one and see, if you want the feeling "you would hardly know it was there"Regards,Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Hi Have the Brakes checked and set up to manufacturers spec; and try again. (if it`s a Brian James the instruction on "how to" came with it , or mine did). However I suggest that you check your nose weight. as what you describe would suggest it is too light? Am I right in thinking that the IQ has a Rear Engine?. If so try loading it "stern first" as this would put the greatest mass forward of the wheels. A loaded trailer is basically a "beam" with the fulcrum at the axle. The dynamics of having the greater mass behind the wheels would tend to cause more "surging" of the inertial mass` about the fulcrum, than having it between the wheels and the towball as downward and rotational force is better damped under that condition. I tow my "Smart" (also rear engined) on "A" frame by choice. BUT my friend has a bespoke "Smart" trailer and I note that the Axle is set further back in relation to the towball than one would expect. and I suspect that this is a deliberate move to alleviate this problem?. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 PeteH - 2012-07-17 6:21 AM ...Am I right in thinking that the IQ has a Rear Engine?. If so try loading it "stern first" as this would put the greatest mass forward of the wheels. Toyota iQ3 is front-wheel drive using a 3-cylinder motor. Empty, I would gues it will be 'front-axle heavy'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-07-17 7:03 AM PeteH - 2012-07-17 6:21 AM ...Am I right in thinking that the IQ has a Rear Engine?. If so try loading it "stern first" as this would put the greatest mass forward of the wheels. Toyota iQ3 is front-wheel drive using a 3-cylinder motor. Empty, I would gues it will be 'front-axle heavy'. Hmm? I was`nt sure as I am not familiar with the IQ. I can only suggest that if the Poster is still having bother after doing the brakes. he tries if at all possible looking at the relative positioning of the vehicle on the trailer, to get balance and nose weight "correct" and getting the Suspension / Damping on the Tow vehicle looked at?. as maybe it has too much overhang.? (older, early, Volvo Estates where seen as very good caravan tow cars, But had to have very "Stiff" rear spring/damping setups to actually tow well. and often proved "too stiff" in daily use.). I currently tow a smart on "A" frame. and before I gave up ANY idea of going back to winter in Spain. I looked long and hard at another trailer for it. My R-V has a Long overhang and I towed a friends car trailer by way of experiment. Now bearing in mind that the R-V is 6.6t on the weighbridge. it did not set up very well at all. and a small modicum of "tail wags dog" could be felt too. So perhaps that is where the Issue lies? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 Hi Folks Tyou for all the helpful info and advice. I have just spoken to B J Trailers and they are of the opinion that it is a brake and or balance situation so I shall have the brakes checked by the supplier. I am aware that they were "catching" due to the damage caused to the guide for the brake rod ! They suggest moving the car forward on the trailer to the foremost setting of the wheel chock but I'll get the Bathroom scales out and check the noseweight as suggested. They also suggested lowering the pressure in the trailer tyres: the recommended pressure is 90 psi but they say 70 psi would be more suitable in my case!! Perhaps Michelin might advise re the mhome where AT recommend 5.5 bar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Blimey!..90psi seems high!? 8-) (..I do know that,when I questioned Michelin about the pressures on our MH,even though I gave them accurate axle weights,all the did was quote the max that my tyres would take... *-) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 The recommended pressure for the trailer tyres is 6.5 bar which,according to my converter,is 94 psi. !! I'm fairly certain the mhome tyres (Michelin) are at too high a pressure too but if the manufacturer is unwilling ( or whatever) what can you do : trial and error? :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Frank McAuley - 2012-07-17 5:58 PM The recommended pressure for the trailer tyres is 6.5 bar which,according to my converter,is 94 psi. !! I'm fairly certain the mhome tyres (Michelin) are at too high a pressure too but if the manufacturer is unwilling ( or whatever) what can you do : trial and error? :'( Have a look back to this string, Frank. http://tinyurl.com/bwdzlke Michelin have become a bit more tight lipped over the past few years, but have always been at least willing to advise the appropriate pressures for the given axle loads. Their technical bods will probably want the added cover of an e-mail quoting the actual axle loads for your fully laden van. Then they can be reasonably confident it has, actually, been weighed! You should find you can reduce them somewhat, though I don't see tyre pressures having much to do with how your trailer is performing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Having an IQ3 and similar M/home I would be interested in how you get on. Just wondering what rear suspension your M/home has, is it an Alko chassis torsion springing or spring leaf suspension > (Whether that would make a differnce I do not know. Others might ! Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 Hi It's an ALKO chassis; the vehicle is one year old ; 3 ltr TD engine and it has Dunlop air suspension(assist) fitted to the rear from new. I intend to have the trailer brakes,tow hitch and tow ball configuration checked by an expert after the 23 rd inst. I'll update you then. One area that has not been considered by the contributors ,so far, is the front suspension of the mhome! I wonder does that have any influence?? May I say that without the trailer and car the mhome feels like a sports car so hopefully it's a matter of having the combo properly set-up as alluded to by the experts! Tyou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Hi,Without running around too much ,if you purchased your trailer from a Brian James supplier he may be able to let you try out a Minno Max or 185,you should have no problem with same . Try and see the difference for yourself,Regards,Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I have used BrianJames Trailers for a number of years carrying cars and towed by differing vehicles, and I can say that I never had too much of a problem. That said, on one occassion I found the car gently moving down the trailer as I braked ! my fault for not checking the ties *-) . As it moved south, I was aware of the handling changing. Having dealt withe BJ Trailers, I feel they will do what they can to resolve any difficulties. Best of luck. Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 Hi Tyou for your assistance. I chatted to B J Trailers a couple of days ago and they were extremely helpful. I hope to resolve the issues next week by implementing their recommendations and the pertinent info I have gleaned from this thread. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Just wondering if you managed to resolve the problem? Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Unless you have a settup with electric or air brakes then any trailer must push the towing vehicle to apply the overrun brakes. Is the overrun damping working correctly? If the trailer is level, the tyres are correctly inflated, the brakes work ONLY when they should and you have a hitch load close to the vehicles maximum and that the overrun damping is OK then its probably that you need to get used to towing and now understand why towing vehicles are restricted to lower speeds than normal. Having towed several caravans with cars of various sizes over the years this is one of the reasons we now prefer motorhomes. Our alternative transport is two wheels which is part of the main vehicle when traveling. Whatever you do there is always a compromise. In summary :- 1 Get it all checked that its right. 2 Get used to it. C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 Hi Folks I have just completed my fine-tuning my implementing the advice so kindly offered on this site with the following results:- car was positioned too far back on the trailer. It's now exerting a noseweight consistent with Brian's recommendations; tyre pressures have been lowered from 90 psi to 70 ps i on BJ Trailer's recommendations although I will need to watch this one incase they "over-heat" ( I'm told ) when an increase will be called for; brake operating rod support bracket had "caught" on the ferry ramp thereby preventing brakes releasing "on time",ie they were releasing slowly causing drag.Brakes have been checked and support bracket shortened; towball has now been reset to the correct height! These adjustments have been very successful and the trailer now tows much more smoothly. Iwould say that repositioning the car,adjusting the tyre pressures and tidying-up the brakes ( all pts raised here ) are the key points and I would strongly recommend them to all "New" tuggers. That being said I think Clive is on the button.viz: there will inevitably be some sensation of "the trailer being there" due to the over-run braking system. I firmly believe experience through use and practice is the answer coupled with "getting it set up properly" As a belt and braces I fitted an AL-KO stabiliser to the trailer as ,on inspection, there was a "kink" in the original hitch- possibly this would have upset the towing,I don't know? Sorry Brendan finances didn't permit changing the trailer but your suggestion is noted. BTW I have learnt that Vicarious Books sell a book for larger motorhomes or,like me, towers detailing suitable European campsites with advice as to approach/exit routes. It's quite expensive so I wonder does anyone have any knowledge of the product? Thankyou so much for all the advice and guidance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takeaflight Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Hi frank re campsites and length of your motorhome. I can only speak of France but at 8 meters plus trailer I have never been turned away or could not get onto a site. Sometimes tight but always managed it. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger s Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Frank, Have pm'd you Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 Re Greyhound: Hi My experience has been similar but Vicarious Books had sent me an email a few days ago advertising the book and when my navigator( my dearest darling wife,Val) saw it she -without hesitation said "Buy it!" There has been a few heated debates re the choice of sites but I thought it was a bit pricey! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 Tyou Roger. I take your point. Kind regards to you both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Having a towbar on the car would make life easier, a couple of m/homers I have met have un-hitched and towed the trailer with the car into awkward spots. One of the downsides of having an IQ is that you are advised / told by Mr T that a towbar should not be fitted, even Smart cars can have them fitted. Depending on how you feel about it, you can buy a Thule ""Towbar like bracket"" for a Thule towbar bike rack. for an IQ. I am sure an enterprising blacksmith could fabricate a towball that could be fitted and used for maneuvering the trailer with the IQ. Just a thought Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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