BGD Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 What is the law on A-Frame Towing in France? Actual advice on the current law there, (not pub-talk or hearsay) please, so I can help someone in a motorhome forum here in Spain. Gracias muchisimos mis amigos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eljay Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 HI, All the information I have read in both the Motorhome press (le Monde du Camping Car) and the periodic national camping car club magazine comes down very firmly that it is INTERDIT. However, from time to time it is possible to spot French-registered camping cars towing cars on A-frames. I believe there is even an agency for one of the A-frame manufacturers near to Paris. When I can get time I will have to have a read of the laws (Code de la Route) to try to work out if that only applies to French-registered vehicles or to foreign nationals as well. It is quite common to see British-registered vehicles using this system for dragging a car around Europe J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian81 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 ..suggest you contact camping car 81 at Castres in the Tarn as they are supplying and fitting these to French Cars / Camping Cars see http://boutique.camping-car81.com/ and http://boutique.camping-car81.com/product.php?id_product=46 Also http://www.systemebleu.com/legislation.php for French legislation. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 ian81 - 2012-07-17 10:59 AM ..suggest you contact camping car 81 at Castres in the Tarn as they are supplying and fitting these to French Cars / Camping Cars see http://boutique.camping-car81.com/ and http://boutique.camping-car81.com/product.php?id_product=46 Also http://www.systemebleu.com/legislation.php for French legislation. Ian Thanks Ian - but having had a look around that site, the ONLY piece of "law" that they quote on their website in support of the "legality" of the A-frame system they advertise, appears to be an old 1994 EU Directive on the homogation of coupling devices. So far as I am aware (others please correct me if wrong) all this obscure EU Directive did was to ask EU Member States to add/amend their own national road traffic regulations to include this EU standardisation of "towballs" and tow-hitch sockets"; so that those standards/designs would become the same across the EU. I'm not aware of any part of that Directive that spoke of anything to do with A-frames, or indeed any sort of trailers, other than with regard to the actual towball/tow-hitch designs/standards. I Know that in Spain and Portugal the road traffic laws do and always have specifically outlawed the towing of one vehicle with another by any means at all (rope/bar/A-frame etc) excpet for very short distances in an emergency ( eg to get a vehicle off the road to the hard shoulder); and that these laws are now being quite vigorously enforced. But what I'm trying to pin down is the actual French road traffic legislation/regulations that the French Police use to stop & fine for illegal towing, and order to unhitch before continuing, vehicles towing other vehicles via an A-frame on French roads........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 Anyone got any French source law/regulations please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Hi Bruce Apparently the relevant bits of French legislation are Le Code de la Route, article R311-1 and article L110-1. The following link, as previously instanced by Retread, will take you to a Federation Francaise de Camping et de Caravaning (FFCC) web page that quotes the legal requirements. This was originally put up in response to a number of queries from French motorhomers who wanted to know the legal position on A-frames. See here: http://tinyurl.com/ck38mfh This was also reproduced at about the same time in the French motorhoming magazine Le Monde du Camping-Car (LMCC), in an article that explored the question of A-frame legality in France. The article gave further details that I will add at the end. Should still be reliably up-to-date. The FFCC piece says (liberal translation): "It appears that more and more of you want to take small cars with you on holiday, to facilitate your short journeys. Article R311-1 of the Code de la Route defines the vehicle categories, and vehicle/trailer combinations, that may use public roads. Under Article R311-1 only a trailer may be towed by a motor vehicle. Except in cases of breakdown, the combination of a motorhome towing a car will be illegal on public roads. Consequently, to be towed behind a motorhome, a car must be carried on a trailer. Article L110-1 of the Code de la Route stipulates that a trailer is a vehicle intended to be towed by another vehicle, without means of self-propulsion, designed and constructed to be towed: whereas a car is a motor vehicle that the Code de la Route defines as being "a terrestrial vehicle circulating on the public road under its own power". Trailers belong in category O of the European vehicle classifications, whereas cars belong in classification M1. Finally, this form of attachment, which would require the car to be decoupled in order to be reversed in an emergency, is unthinkable. Be aware that no such removable device has been homologated in France." The LMCC article went on to describe the conditions under which one motor vehicle could tow another on a public road. From memory, this was in an emergency, where a vehicle had broken down, or been involved in an accident, and was judged to present a hazard for other traffic, despite use of hazard warning flashers and triangle. It could then be moved, using only a homologated towpole, to a place of safety, or to a nearby garage for repair. If towed in this way, the hazard flashers of both vehicles must be operating, and the speed must be kept low (undefined). I think the reference to use of a homologated towpole is what gives rise to the FFCC caution that "no such removable device has been homologated in France". The Code de la Route is accessible online in French, but I think the above, from responsible organisations, probably gives a sufficiently clear overview of its requirements for most purposes. Doubtless, dedicated A-framers will wish to consult the original French, following which some will ask for translations into English, that they will claim must be inaccurate, because it doesn't say A-frames are legal in France! Hey-ho! Round 694? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 I've had a bit of wade through French law this afternoon (sad, I know!), and as I now understand it, this is the real legal situation in France: A-Frame towing is definitely illegal there too. Whether or not that illegality is currently punished strictly, never, or patchily by French Gendarmes, the law appears perfectly clear that legally you can't do it. French Law Regarding A-Frame Towing. Article R311-1 (as amended by Decree No. 2009-497 of 30 April 2009) of the Code de la Route defines the vehicle categories, and vehicle/trailer combinations, that may use public roads in France under French law. Dependant upon their individual type/weight, Motorhomes are motor vehicles within either Category M or N. Under Article R311-1 only a trailer (which are in Category O and which are defined by Article L110-1) may be towed by a motor vehicle. Article L110-1:the following have the meanings ascribed to them in this article: 1 "Motor vehicle" means any land vehicle equipped with a propulsion engine, including trolley buses, designed to run on a road under its own power, with the exception of vehicles which run on rails; 2 "Trailer" means any vehicle without means of self-propulsion, designed and constructed to be drawn by another vehicle. Except in cases of emergency towing following breakdown/accident, the combination of a motor-home (or any other car/van) towing any other land vehicle equipped with a propulsion engine (eg. a car) is specifically illegal on any public road in France. Even in emergency circumstances, such towing must only be to the nearest safe place, must use only a specialist recovery vehicle and or by the use of a homologated, solid, tow-pole (ie not a tow rope); the towed vehicle must have a driver (unless physically impossible due to accident damage), both vehicles must show their hazard warning lights, and the speed must be kept “low” (what “low” means is not defined in the article of law). The Federation Francaise de Camping et de Caravaning (FFCC) has confirmed that there has yet been no instance of any sort of solid tow-pole homologated for use in France; and has advised it's members that A-Frame towing is specifically illegal on French roads because of the above laws. To be towed behind a motorhome in France, a car must be carried on a trailer. The Code de la Route cites the following French source Legislation/Regulations: Decree of February 6, 1932 - art. 62 (V) Order of July 19, 1954 - art. 12 (V) Order of July 19, 1954 - art. 14 a (V) Order of November 24, 1967 - art. 2-1 (M) Order of November 24, 1967 - art. 2-1 (V) Order of November 24, 1967 - art. 2-1 (V) Order of November 24, 1967 - art. 2-1 (V) Order of November 24, 1967 - art. 2-1 (V) Order of November 24, 1967 - art. 2-1 (V) Order of November 24, 1967 - art. 4 (V) Order of November 24, 1967 - art. 4 (V) Order of November 24, 1967 - art. 4 (V) Order of November 24, 1967 - art. 4 (V) Decree No. 70-1285 of 23 December 1970 - art. 3 (V) Decree No. 70-1285 of 23 December 1970 - art. 3 (V) Order of July 4, 1972 - art. Annex (V) Order of July 2, 1982 - art. 2 (VD) Order of October 30, 1987 - art. 1 (V) Order of 23 November 1992 - art. 2 (M) Order of 23 November 1992 - art. 2 (VD) Decree No. 95-697 of 9 May 1995 - art. 3 (V) Decree No. 96-1133 of 24 December 1996 - art. 7 (V) Decree No. 99-752 of 30 August 1999 - art. 17 (V) Decree No. 99-752 of 30 August 1999 - art. 17 (V) Decree No. 99-752 of 30 August 1999 - art. 17 (V) Decree No. 99-752 of 30 August 1999 - art. 17 (VD) Decree No. 2002-1508 of 23 December 2002 - art. 1 (V) Decree No. 2002-1563 of 24 December 2002 - art. 1 (V) Order of May 2, 2003 - art. 1 (M) Order of May 2, 2003 - art. 1 (M) Order of May 2, 2003 - art. 1 (V) Order of May 2, 2003 - art. 26 (V) Decree No. 2003-727 of 1 August 2003 - art. 1 (Ab) Order of 26 November 2003 - art. 17-3 (Ab) Order of July 27, 2004 - art. 7 (V) Order of July 27, 2004 - art. 7 (V) Order of July 27, 2004 - art. 7 (V) Order of May 4, 2006 - art. 1 (V) Order of May 4, 2006 - art. 13 (V) Order of May 4, 2006 - art. 13 (VD) Order of May 4, 2006 - art. 16 (VD) Order of May 4, 2006 - art. 17-3 (V) Order of July 28, 2006 - art. 2 (V) Decree No. 2007-737 of May 7, 2007 - art. 3 (Ab) Decree No. 2007-1873 of 26 December 2007 - art. 1 (V) Decree No. 2007-1873 of 26 December 2007 - art. 1 (V) Decree No. 2007-1873 of 26 December 2007 - art. 1 (V) Decree No. 2007-1873 of 26 December 2007 - art. 1 (V) Decree No. 2007-1873 of 26 December 2007 - art. 4 (V) Decree No. 2007-1873 of 26 December 2007 - art. 5 (V) Decree No. 2007-1873 of 26 December 2007 - art. 5 (V) Decree No. 2007-1873 of 26 December 2007 - art. 1, v. init. Decree No. 2007-1873 of 26 December 2007 - art. 4, v. init. Order of June 4, 2008 - art. 2, v. init. Order of July 16, 2008 - art. 2, v. init. Order of June 30, 2008 - art. (V) Order of June 30, 2008 - art. Annex I (V) Order of June 30, 2008 - art. Annex III (V) Order of June 30, 2008 - art. Annex III (V) Order of June 30, 2008 - art., V. init. Decree No. 2008-850 of 26 August 2008 - Art. 1 (V) Decree No. 2008-850 of 26 August 2008 - Art. 1, v. init. Order of August 29, 2008 - art., V. init. Order of August 29, 2008 - art., V. init. Order of August 29, 2008 - art., V. init. Order of August 29, 2008 - art., V. init. Order of 13 October 2008 - Art. Annex II (V) Order of 13 October 2008 - Art. Annex III (V) Order of 13 October 2008 - Art., V. init. Decree No. 2008-1279 of December 5, 2008, c. init. Decree No. 2008-1321 of 16 December 2008 - art. 33, v. init. Decree No. 2009-66 of January 19, 2009 - art. 12 (V) Decree No. 2009-66 of January 19, 2009 - art. 12 (V) Decree No. 2009-66 of January 19, 2009 - art. 12, v. init. Decree No. 2009-66 of January 19, 2009 - art. 2, v. init. Decree No. 2009-66 of January 19, 2009 - art. 6, v. init. Order of 18 December 2008 - art., V. init. Order of January 20, 2009 - art., V. init. Order of February 9, 2009 - art. (V) Order of February 9, 2009 - art. 3 (VD) Order of February 9, 2009 - art. 3, v. init. Order of February 9, 2009 - art., V. init. Circular dated December 3, 2008 - art., V. init. Decree No. 2009-497 of 30 April 2009, v. init. Order of May 4, 2009 - art. 1 (V) Order of May 4, 2009 - art. 1, v. init. Order of May 4, 2009 - art. 2 (V) Order of May 4, 2009 - art. 2, v. init. Order of May 4, 2009, c. init. Order of April 29, 2009 - art. (V) Order of April 29, 2009 - art., V. init. Order of May 18, 2009 - art. 1, v. init. Order of May 18, 2009, c. init. Order of June 19, 2009 - art., V. init. Order of 29 May 2009 - art. Annex I (M) Order of 29 May 2009 - art. Annex I (V) Order of 29 May 2009 - art. Annex I (V) Order of 29 May 2009 - art., V. init. Order of July 10, 2009 - art., V. init. Order of December 22, 2009 - art. 8, v. init. Order of 30 December 2009 - art., V. init. Order of June 18, 2010 - art. 2 (V) Order of June 18, 2010 - art. 2, v. init. Order of July 16, 2010 - art. 1, v. init. Notice the - art., V. init. Order of October 21, 2010 - art., V. init. Order of December 9, 2010 - art. 18, v. init. Order of February 18, 2011 - art. 1, v. init. Order of March 16, 2011 - art. 1, v. init. Order of April 4, 2011 - art. 1, v. init. Order of April 4, 2011 - art. 2, v. init. Order of May 5, 2011 - art. (V) Order of May 5, 2011 - art., V. init. Decree No. 2011-493 of 5 May 2011 - art. 1 (VD) Decree No. 2011-493 of 5 May 2011 - art. 1, v. init. Decree No. 2011-493 of 5 May 2011 - art. 3, v. init. Decree No. 2011-493 of 5 May 2011 - art. 4, v. init. Decree No. 2011-493 of 5 May 2011 - art. 5, v. init. Order of May 2, 2011 (V) Order of May 2, 2011, c. init. Decree No. 2011-873 of 25 July 2011 - art. 1, v. init. Order of November 28, 2011 - art., V. init. Order of December 6, 2011 - art. 1, v. init. Order of December 28, 2011 (V) Order of December 28, 2011, c. init. Decree No. 2012-238 of 20 February 2012 - art. 1, v. init. Decree No. 2012-280 of 28 February 2012 - art. 2 (VD) Decree No. 2012-280 of 28 February 2012 - art. 2, v. init. Order of February 28, 2012 - art. 1, v. init. Order of February 28, 2012 - art., V. init. Order of 28 March 2012 - art. 1, v. init. Order of 28 March 2012 - art., V. init. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Hi, That answers that, times are a changing, looks like a trailer is the safest way to go when abroad.Regards,Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 If that is definitely the case (and I've no reason to doubt it from the above) perhaps Towtal should be reviewing what they are doing ... they even have a French section on their website: http://www.towtal.co.uk/motorhome-a-frames/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Mel B - 2012-07-18 10:56 PM If that is definitely the case (and I've no reason to doubt it from the above) perhaps Towtal should be reviewing what they are doing ... they even have a French section on their website: http://www.towtal.co.uk/motorhome-a-frames/ In which they refer to 94/20/CE, which is concerned with type approval, and which is amended by 2006/96/EC, and of which there are 65 pages! The English version of what he reproduces in bold on the French language part of his website says: Article 2 Member States may not refuse: — EEC type-approval or national type-approval for a vehicle, or refuse or prohibit the sale, registration, entry into service or use of a vehicle on grounds relating to its optional equipment with mechanical coupling devices, — EEC component type-approval or national component type-approval for a mechanical coupling, or prohibit the sale or use of a mechanical coupling device, if the requirements of the Annexes are satisfied. Article 3 Member States shall adopt and publish the laws, regulations and administrative provisions necessary to comply with this Directive within 18 months of the date of its adoption. They shall forthwith inform the Commission thereof. When Member States adopt these measures, they shall contain a reference to this Directive or shall be accompanied by such reference on the occasion of their official publication. The method of making such a reference shall be laid down by the Member States. They shall apply these provisions 18 months following the date of adoption of this Directive. Those annexes concern: LIST OF ANNEXES ANNEX I: Scope, definition, application and granting of EEC type-approval, extension of approval, conformity of production ANNEX II: Example of an EEC approval marking ANNEX III: Information document for type-approved mechanical coupling devices ANNEX IV: EEC type-approval certificate for mechanical coupling devices ANNEX V: Requirements for mechanical coupling devices ANNEX VI: Testing of mechanical coupling devices ANNEX VII: Requirements for the attachment of mechanical coupling devices to vehicles ANNEX VIII: Information document for type-approved vehicles ANNEX IX: EEC type-approval certificate for vehicles From which it should be clear that the main thrust is the type approval of, and physical characteristics of, towballs and coupling heads. ANNEX VIII is interesting because it states that only type approved devices may be attached to type approved cars, and that they must be attached in the manner the car manufacturer specifies. Personally, I can't see how that might apply to the attachment of an A-frame for which presumably, no car manufacturer will have made provision, to the front of a car . The Towtal product is claimed to be certified in conformity with European standards, but no actual evidence of this conformity is offered. However, none of this has any bearing on the relevant legislation governing the towing of one motor vehicle by another in France (or Spain or Portugal), only on matters concerning the suitability of the Towtal product as a towing device. As stated before, it is not the device itself that is the root cause of the problem, it is its use by motorhomers (a motorhome being a motor vehicle) to tow cars (a car being another motor vehicle). I'm afraid I think Mr Towtal is shooting at the wrong target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 TOWtal is not the only UK A-frame supplier with a French arm to their business. CAR-A-TOW also has a French subsidiary marketing "Système Bleu" in that country. The link is http://www.systemebleu.com/ and the section dealing with 'legality' (mentioned by ian81 above) is here http://www.systemebleu.com/legislation.php It's worth noting that this counters the (apparent) Code de la Route prohibition of one motor vehicle towing another by using the UK 'loophole' argument that a car that meets trailer regulations when being towed is no longer a "car" but a "trailer". Consequently, as the Code de la Route permits towing a trailer, it is claimed that it is not prohibited in France to tow a car that, when on an A-frame, has miraculously transformed itself into a "trailer". As it's proven impossible to convince the UK A-framing community that there's anything the least bit hazy about towing a car on an A-frame under UK motoring law, I can't see any profit in UK motorcaravanners trying to advise on the Real World situation regarding the legality of A-framing in France under French motoring law. Despite received wisdom from French authorities being that A-framing in France is illegal, during the last year or so French motorcaravanners have increasingly begun to use A-frames to tow cars. This has (apparently) provoked no reported action from the French police and French insurance providers (or some of them at least) have been prepared to offer insurance on the combined motorhome + car. Hopefully the A-framing practice will soon be accepted by the French authorities as being legally OK in that country. If that happened, then French 'legality' just might spill over into other EU states and motorcaravanners throughout Europe could drag cars around without worrying (and endlessly asking/arguing) about the legality of the practice. I can't see French authorities taking the alternative stance of formally banning the practice and coming down hard on A-framers, though it would be preferable to do that than leave the legal position as it currently stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 Agreed Brian - As I understand it, that EU Directive that Towtal cites in an attempt to argue that their entire product is legal to use in the UK and across the rest of the EU, refers simply and only to the homologation of the design of the actual TOW-HITCH part. This EU Directive was, as I understand it, passed in order to establish a common standard so that in the future, all tow-balls and all tow-hitches made/sold/fitted in the EU to this standard would "mate" properly with each other. All they are actually saying is that the TOW-HITCH (the cup) on the front end of their A-Frames that attaches to a towball, complies with this EU homologation Directive; and thus will "mate" with any tow-ball which also complies with the same EU standard. There is NOTHING in that EU Directive that they so proudly boast of, which refers to any part of any sort of trailer, A-Frame, etc , OTHER than requiring EU Member States to pass into their own domestic law, regulations which require their citizens/businesses, to make/sell items with tow-balls or tow-hitches that comply with the detailed specifications of this Directive. The Directive does also say that no Member State can prevent the sale in their territory of a product from another Member State, so far as it's tow-ball or tow-hitch component design is concerned, so long as those parts of the item have been properly homologated (essentially, have been tested to prove they comply with) the standards within that EU Directive. This claim says nothing whatsoever about any other part of any item made, say in the UK and then offered for sale in say France (eg. Towtal A-frames) ; OTHER THAN it's tow-hitch cup design conforms to the EU-wide standard. Let us also not become confused between the SALE of something and the USE of that thing. There is NO law that I am aware of which prevents that sale of A-frame devices in France. Nor in Spain, nor in Portugal. It is NOT illegal to buy one, to own one, or to indeed use one on your car on private land. What IS, in each of their bodies of written law, specifically ILLEGAL in each of those European countries ( and I suspect in others too), is the USE of any such device to tow one vehicle with another vehicle on any public roads. Compliance with that "cannot use this on public roads" law is not a matter for a Company offering such items for sale; they of course have a vested interest in encouraging you to buy, not putting you off! As with any and all road traffic laws, it is for the DRIVER of a vehicle to ensure that he complies with the road traffic laws of that country when he drives on public roads there. If you bought one of Towtals A-frames in France, used it there, then got nicked and fined for doing so by a Gendarme who was more boned-up on French towing law than most, if you've got very deep pockets you could try suing Towtal in Civil Court there. No doubt their defence would be "the product itself is not illegal, it;s tow-hitch cup is EU compliant; and it ain't up to us as to how a buyer then uses it; but up to them to only use it in accordance with the laws of this country". You might, after spending tens or hundreds of thousands of euros on such test-case litigation win against Towtal France.You might well not. But you've still been nicked and fined be the Police for the road traffic offence that YOU committed in France by towing one vehicle, by whatever means, with another.....and the risk of that happening to you again and again and again each subsequent time you break French law by repeating your illegal towing behaviour won't have changed at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Hi,Still looks like the trailer is the safest (law wise) to go, when abroad. One can always hope things will change, but not looking good.Regards,Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 The issue could be solved without ambiguity were an A-frame manufacturer to apply for, and obtain, type approval. Since the Germans are pretty thorough, I think a jointly funded application by all the UK A-frame manufacturers in concert to TuV on a test basis, would carry the greatest level of confidence Europe wide. They would need to submit sample A-frames complete with a fully modified car and then, if the attachments to the car were in accordance with the car manufacturer's TA documentation, and the modifications to the car demonstrated compliance with European trailer legislation, TA should be granted for those frames, on that car make and model. Once the principle was accepted and TA granted, the addition of alternative car makes and models should amount to little more than a desk study. This is so glaring obvious to me, that I can only assume there is some other, equally glaringly obvious to A-frame manufacturers, reason why this has not been done. Cost maybe, but the advantage, in terms of marketability, would surely repay the investment. Then, all that would be necessary would be to petition parliament to write into UK law (probably via an amendment to C&U) that cars so modified could be legally regarded as trailers when being towed, providing a TA A-frame is used, and the specified modifications to the car have been made. That would establish legality under the Vienna convention, meaning that because UK motorhomers could then establish the legality of towing cars as trailers in UK, they could also do so throughout Europe. That would presumably create pressure for similar exceptions to be granted by other states, eventually leaving UK A-frame manufacturers with a head start into those markets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 As an aside to all this you have a similar situation with race exhausts on road motorcycles. I have been motorcycling since 1960 and I find the noise objectionable so I am sure non riders do. These are marked 'not for road use' which seems to have put a stop to any attempt to ban their sale. So it is not illegal to sell them but it is illegal to use them which is a choice for the user and the user can be fined etc, rather as BGD is suggesting above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Why do you suppose that TUV approval would make any difference? TUV have approved several aftermarket DPF's but they are not recognised as suitable in the UK! Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Because, bas, if type approval is gained in one EU state, other states are bound to accept the product as having been type approved, and therefore suitable for use. I have no idea what approval TuV may have given for these DPF's, or why they would not be suitable in UK. However, if properly type approved, as TuV is a fully authorised test house there would have to be specific objections from UK authorities as to why they cannot be accepted in UK. Presumably the objections have been stated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Hi Can I just say that, why do we even bother with arguing over whether it is legal (or not) and put pressure on the UK government via the clubs etc in the UK and Europe to get this SENSIBLE mode of "Green(er)" towing Accepted?. I know! , I know!. that would be too easy!!! Personally I can see myself going back to "tugging" a Caravan soon. Not something I look forward too But needs must!! pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 The words "Get a Life" always spring to mind when this subject is raised, if people don't want to use one then DON'T and if you DO make sure you get it insured, no one appears to be saying they are dangerous and in most cases the people using them are insured to do so, so why do we just keep on covering the same old ground. The only question appears to be reversing and if you have another driver with you then that seems to be easerly over come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Quite simple. They are illegal, and will also be in the UK within a couple of years C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Who cares? I'll still use mine, as will a load of others I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 Clive - 2012-07-27 6:55 PM Quite simple. They are illegal, and will also be in the UK within a couple of years C. That's very positive, but I think there's absolutely no evidence to support that view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted July 28, 2012 Share Posted July 28, 2012 You were not present for the presentation by the police at the MMM show a few months back then Derek?. They were adamant it would be in force within a couple of years max in the UK. That is the basis for my comment. Plus it is already illegal in France and Spain! C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 I wasn't at the presentation that you refer to, but I'm guessing that the mention of "a couple of years max" may have something to do with 2014 changes to Type Approval regulations that will affect A-frame systems employing inertia-braking. This issue has been discussed widely in the past and is mentioned at the head of this webpage. http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/a-frames.shtml While it's quite possible that the regulatory changes will prohibit inertia-braked A-frames from being manufactured and marketed in the UK from 2014 onwards, history strongly suggests that 'technical' motoring regulations are not applied retrospectively. For example, UK front-seat safety belt legislation was not applied to pre-1967 cars, and seat-belts did not need to be retro-fitted to the rear seats of pre-1987 cars. If no motoring 'technical' regulation has been applied retrospectively (and I can't think of any), then I don't see the inertia-braking one doing so either. The DVLA's stance has been (and, to the best of my knowledge, still is) that, provided the relevant trailer-related braking and lighting requirements are met, one motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle (with the latter being towed as a 'trailer') does not infringe current UK laws. Personally, I think inertia-braked A-frames are iffy as far as compliance with trailer reversing regulations is concerned, but there are UK companies that market A-frame systems that do comply. The 'reverse castering' tendency of a car's front wheels when it's going backwards is inherent in any car-on-an-A-frame system, but this is not a legal inhibition. The DVLA has advised (in their opinion and conditionally) that A-framing as a practice may be considered legal within the UK. A-framing is a motoring practice that at least hundreds, perhaps thousands, of UK motorcaravanners have been carrying out since the 1990s. None of these people has ever been prosecuted in the UK for doing this (otherwise the UK legality of the practice would have been established by now) and, even though there may be doubts over technical aspects of the towing systems themselves (particularly the braking methodology), its safety has never been challenged. UK insurance providers will offer cover to A-framers which, although not in any way 'legalising' the practice, does suggest that A-frame accident statistics are not significant. I can see inertia-braking regulatory changes outlawing manufacture/sale of A-frames from 2014 onwards, but I don't envisage use of pre-2014 inertia-braked A-frames being prohibited (any more than it's prohibited to use a pre-1988 braked-trailer that lacks brakes that auto-disengage when the trailer is reversed). And what about the A-frame systems that are being marketed here claiming to comply already with the 2014 revisions - why should they be banned? I don't know what the police said at the MMM show, but if they were "adamant" that motorhome A-framing as a PRACTICE would be outlawed in the UK within a couple of years, I believe they were talking through their helmets. If an authorative police spokesman has indeed stated categorically that motorhome A-framing will soon be legally prohibited in this country, this will be of immediate interest to the whole of the UK motorcaravanning community. While French 'received wisdom' seems to be that motorhome A-framing is illegal in that country for French-registered vehicles/French nationals (conflicts with Code de la Route, homologation rules, etc.), it's debatable that it's prohibited for tourists. And, if the it's-a-trailer-not-a-car argument that seems to be effective in the UK, is considered to have similar validity in France, then this motorhome practice may eventually be pronounced legal there. Legal or otherwise, it hasn't stopped A-frames being sold in France, nor French motorcaravanners from buying/using them. Even in Spain - where there seems little doubt that Spanish nationals/residents are prohibited from A-framing and where UK A-framers clearly risk prosecution - there continues to be argument about whether the Spanish regulations should be applied to tourists. (It would be very helpful if you could provide more details of what was said by the police at the MMM show. As should be apparent I'm very sceptical that the PRACTICE of motorhome A-framing will be banned in the UK. I'm always open to reasoned argument though, but, in this case, it will take more than a throw-away Tweet-length statement to cause me to change my mind. ;-) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Derek Uzzell - 2012-07-29 11:56 AM..............I can see inertia-braking regulatory changes outlawing manufacture/sale of A-frames from 2014 onwards, but I don't envisage use of pre-2014 inertia-braked A-frames being prohibited (any more than it's prohibited to use a pre-1988 braked-trailer that lacks brakes that auto-disengage when the trailer is reversed). And what about the A-frame systems that are being marketed here claiming to comply already with the 2014 revisions - why should they be banned?................ But, can the date of manufacture of an A-frame be established? I can see that it can be in the case of the car, which is deemed the trailer, so possibly it would have to turn on that, rather than the frame itself. After all, the A-frame is merely a draw-bar. It has no brakes itself, it merely facilitates a means of activating the trailer's own brakes (to whatever extent). I think this has a way yet to run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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