Motorhomes with scooters

[Ipetchey]

Hi motorhometone This is very useful info on your chausson. I was beginning to wonder if it was possible to carry a scooter on an under 3.5 ton van with 2 ton rear axle, but this shows it is possible, in a garage.

Can you advise what your vans payload is or Mass in running order.

How do you find motorway driving with the scooter in garage, do you notice any different driving characteristics with / without scooter.... Have you added air suspension or thought of adding it?

Any issues getting scooter into van? A one or two person job?. Some vans only have one garage door. Do you think you need two doors or do you only use only one for getting the scooter in and out.

 

 

[Barryd999]

I might add that despite many warnings that our van would be light on the front end I notice no difference in handling with or without the bike on. I do try and distribute wieght forward though

[Ipetchey]

Many thanks for the replies to date. Some very useful info, please keep them coming. Especially load data with scooter on van.

Looking at newish vans there are very few 3.5ton vans with payloads of 700kg and rear axles greater than 2000kg. If we wish to have an under 3.5ton van it is beginning to look like scooter in garage, although we have not ruled out a heavier (4 ton) van with scooter on back. I worked out that a 100kg scooter on a rack with towbar adds about 250kg to the rear axle.... Few vans with a 2000kg rear axle will take this unless there is a very short overhang, which seems rare.

 

How difficult is it to load / unload a scooter into a garage? It does seem easier to load / unload onto a rack. Much easier?..... Sufficiently easier to warrant going above 3.5ton?

[Mike B.]

We carried a scooter for years in the garage. Had to take the mirrors off to get it in but apart from that never had any problems with loading/unloading via a ramp. Our problems were the loading on the scooter-as we got older (bigger) the power to weight ratio went into reverse! Hence the 1200cc now!!

Mike

[Clive]

R1200GS BMW but the van needs to be based on a 7.5 tonne chassis if you want to hang it on the back!

 

GREAT FUN though!

 

Meanwhile if you are patient MMM should be publishing an article about this subject of Motorbikes and Scooters and motorhomes in the next few months in some detail. My guess will be in the spring. Scheduling is is in the lap of the gods though!

 

C.

[neilmac]

We only have experience of a scooter on a rack and it worked very well. Our motorhome has about a 750kg payload so we were able to keep within limits when in full touring trim (which is all the time for us).

 

Our figures:

 

Gross 3640 (3850)

Back 2040 (2120)

Front 1640 (1850)

 

The rack that we used was from Watling Towbars and weighed 30kg and would carry up to 130kg, our scooter was a cheap Chinese 125cc that weighed 115kgs.

 

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l229/neilmac500/_MG_7589-1_zps86eed5d4.jpg

 

Another consideration with using a rack is the overhang that you create by adding it, as to stay within the law the projection should not be more than 60% of your wheelbase which is not always possible to achieve, especially with some of the tag axle arrangements you see nowadays. We were, ahem, borderline on this ;-) .

 

Loading was pretty straigh-forward although with a short ramp the scooter would sometimes ground on the way up or down - best to use a convenient kerb or leveling ramp to reduce the angle.

[Barryd999]

neilmac - 2012-12-14 12:45 PM

 

We only have experience of a scooter on a rack and it worked very well. Our motorhome has about a 750kg payload so we were able to keep within limits when in full touring trim (which is all the time for us).

 

Our figures:

 

Gross 3640 (3850)

Back 2040 (2120)

Front 1640 (1850)

 

The rack that we used was from Watling Towbars and weighed 30kg and would carry up to 130kg, our scooter was a cheap Chinese 125cc that weighed 115kgs.

 

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l229/neilmac500/_MG_7589-1_zps86eed5d4.jpg

 

Another consideration with using a rack is the overhang that you create by adding it, as to stay within the law the projection should not be more than 60% of your wheelbase which is not always possible to achieve, especially with some of the tag axle arrangements you see nowadays. We were, ahem, borderline on this ;-) .

 

Loading was pretty straigh-forward although with a short ramp the scooter would sometimes ground on the way up or down - best to use a convenient kerb or leveling ramp to reduce the angle.

 

Crickey Neil that looks very low at the back. Does it not ground sometimes?

 

Ours is similar from Armitage Trailers. How it works is the rack is fitted to the chassis and takes a whole day to fit. It will take 200KG. There is a ramp which is as long as the rack that can either be bolted to the rack in transit or I just slide it in the garage. This makes pushing the bike on a breeze although the easiest way is just to rev it on.

 

Then there is a bar at the back of the rack on which slides a U shaped bar with rubber on it that sits on the sadle. This is then simply ratchet strapped down on two hooks and then one shorter ratchet through the front wheel through holes in the front of the rack.

 

I wasnt joking earlier it really does just take 30 seconds.

 

 

[Barryd999]

neilmac - 2012-12-14 12:45 PM

 

We only have experience of a scooter on a rack and it worked very well. Our motorhome has about a 750kg payload so we were able to keep within limits when in full touring trim (which is all the time for us).

 

Our figures:

 

Gross 3640 (3850)

Back 2040 (2120)

Front 1640 (1850)

 

The rack that we used was from Watling Towbars and weighed 30kg and would carry up to 130kg, our scooter was a cheap Chinese 125cc that weighed 115kgs.

 

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l229/neilmac500/_MG_7589-1_zps86eed5d4.jpg

 

Another consideration with using a rack is the overhang that you create by adding it, as to stay within the law the projection should not be more than 60% of your wheelbase which is not always possible to achieve, especially with some of the tag axle arrangements you see nowadays. We were, ahem, borderline on this ;-) .

 

Loading was pretty straigh-forward although with a short ramp the scooter would sometimes ground on the way up or down - best to use a convenient kerb or leveling ramp to reduce the angle.

 

Crickey Neil that looks very low at the back. Does it not ground sometimes?

 

Ours is similar from Armitage Trailers. How it works is the rack is fitted to the chassis and takes a whole day to fit. It will take 200KG. There is a ramp which is as long as the rack that can either be bolted to the rack in transit or I just slide it in the garage. This makes pushing the bike on a breeze although the easiest way is just to rev it on.

 

Then there is a bar at the back of the rack on which slides a U shaped bar with rubber on it that sits on the sadle. This is then simply ratchet strapped down on two hooks and then one shorter ratchet through the front wheel through holes in the front of the rack.

 

I wasnt joking earlier it really does just take 30 seconds.

 

[neilmac]

Barryd999 - 2012-12-14 3:20 PM

 

Crickey Neil that looks very low at the back. Does it not ground sometimes?

 

 

The uneven ground its on (Equihen Plage) in the photo makes it look a tad lower than it actually was. I could have mounted it a few inches higher by using different boltholes on the towbar bracket but that would have made the loading ramp issue worse.

 

It only grounded on severe inclines and then only if it wasn't possible to get a diagonal approach to it. Was always a consideration though and that's another reason to be wary of sticking a rack on a long overhang.

[Barryd999]

neilmac - 2012-12-14 2:31 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2012-12-14 3:20 PM

 

Crickey Neil that looks very low at the back. Does it not ground sometimes?

 

 

The uneven ground its on (Equihen Plage) in the photo makes it look a tad lower than it actually was. I could have mounted it a few inches higher by using different boltholes on the towbar bracket but that would have made the loading ramp issue worse.

 

It only grounded on severe inclines and then only if it wasn't possible to get a diagonal approach to it. Was always a consideration though and that's another reason to be wary of sticking a rack on a long overhang.

 

I have notest some really long overhangs on vans. The Kontiki 640 despite being over 7m seems to be just that bit shorter overhang than most and it makes a big difference as you need to factor this into the overall weight calculation.

[rupert123]

Neil the bit about the 60% of wheelbase simply is not correct, the calculation is much more complicated than that.

[pepe63xnotuse]

....isn't the "60% of wheel base" figure applicable if the "extension" is full width ?...and if it isn't,then all sorts weird and wonderful calculations involving "lines of arc" type of stuff kick in..? :-S

 

I don't know where I've heard or read that though.....

 

(.."..is simply not correct.." does sound a bit terse.. (lol) )

[neilmac]

rupert123 - 2012-12-14 7:14 PM

 

Neil the bit about the 60% of wheelbase simply is not correct, the calculation is much more complicated than that.

 

Perhaps you can enlighten us :-)

 

 

[Barryd999]

I would be more worried about the actual overloading of the axle. I used this calculator here (see bottom of page) to work mine out.

 

http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/safe-loading-and-payloads

 

I went to a weigh bridge first. Then I weighed the whole van and each axle, did all the measurments in the the Practical motorhome guide, looked at the weight of the bike, rack and towbar and did the maths.

 

It worked out on paper. Just. Got everything fitted and the bike on and went back to the weighbridge and weighed everything again. Right bang on the limit. I have since had an uprated axle fitted which I think can take an extra 350KG but I have never legally uprated it as I didnt need to. Prefer to keep it under 3500KG as its easier in the likes of Austria and Switzerland.

 

First time in Switzerland though we were held up at the border while they weighed the van as they didnt beleive it was under 3500KG being such a big van with a bike on the back. We weighed in at 3460KG and got stopped and asked at every border crossing after that. Just showed em our print out from the first weigh in!

 

You cant dick around with weights I reckon.

[rupert123]

neilmac - 2012-12-14 8:01 PM

 

rupert123 - 2012-12-14 7:14 PM

 

Neil the bit about the 60% of wheelbase simply is not correct, the calculation is much more complicated than that.

 

Perhaps you can enlighten us :-)

 

The newer calculation involves the width at rear, radii on corners, turning circle at wheels and rear of vehicle. I cannot remember where the full details can be found but a search of government sites for anyone who is bothered should turn it up. As for a scooter rack adding to the vehicle length for the calculation this depends on whether it is a permanent fixture or can be removed without tools so is a temporary one.

[Ipetchey]

Barryd999 - 2012-12-14 8:16 PM

 

I would be more worried about the actual overloading of the axle. .

 

I agree, But probably less so when the scooter is in the garage (saves around 100kg of carrier and attachment cantilever effect) and this seems to be leading us to a MH with garage.

 

Interestingly no one has mentioned any petrol concerns inside the van (scooter petrol tank!). should this be a concern to us? ......Are garages vented?

 

Ian and Leigh

[rupert123]

Ipetchey - 2012-12-15 2:53 PM

 

Barryd999 - 2012-12-14 8:16 PM

 

I would be more worried about the actual overloading of the axle. .

 

I agree, But probably less so when the scooter is in the garage (saves around 100kg of carrier and attachment cantilever effect) and this seems to be leading us to a MH with garage.

 

Interestingly no one has mentioned any petrol concerns inside the van (scooter petrol tank!). should this be a concern to us? ......Are garages vented?

 

Ian and Leigh

100kg of tow bar and rack, what the hell is this one made of, mine weighed about 45kg. Sorry misread the post but you will still get some cant effect even in the garage.

[Ipetchey]

[100kg of tow bar and rack, what the hell is this one made of, mine weighed about 45kg. Sorry misread the post but you will still get some cant effect even in the garage].

 

Watlings advised about 30kg for the rack and 40kg average towbar / rack attachment. Depending on the overhang, 70kg on the back of a MH would likely put more than 100kg on the rear axle.

 

A 100kg scooter on a rack on the back of a MH would put more weight on the rear axle than a 100kg scooter inside a garage because the overhang would be greater (in most cases).

[Brian Kirby]

Barryd999 - 2012-12-14 8:16 PM

 

I would be more worried about the actual overloading of the axle. I used this calculator here (see bottom of page) to work mine out.

 

http://www.practicalmotorhome.com/advice/safe-loading-and-payloads

 

I went to a weigh bridge first. Then I weighed the whole van and each axle, did all the measurments in the the Practical motorhome guide, looked at the weight of the bike, rack and towbar and did the maths.

 

It worked out on paper. Just. Got everything fitted and the bike on and went back to the weighbridge and weighed everything again. Right bang on the limit. I have since had an uprated axle fitted which I think can take an extra 350KG but I have never legally uprated it as I didnt need to. Prefer to keep it under 3500KG as its easier in the likes of Austria and Switzerland.

 

First time in Switzerland though we were held up at the border while they weighed the van as they didnt beleive it was under 3500KG being such a big van with a bike on the back. We weighed in at 3460KG and got stopped and asked at every border crossing after that. Just showed em our print out from the first weigh in!

 

You cant dick around with weights I reckon.

AFAIK, there is no reason to increase the plated MAM because you uprate the rear axle. However, it might be wise to attach a new plate showing the revised rear axle limit, so that you don't get caught (I suspect unlikely in practise) for having the rear axle overloaded against the existing plate, even when within your MAM.

[Motorhometone]

Hi Ipetchy,

Sorry for slow reply.

Chausson Welcome 75 MIRO 3015 Kgs includes Driver, 90% Fuel

MTPLM 3500 Kgs

Payload 475 Kgs

 

My previous van was a Laika Ecovic 7r which was manafactured with a wind out scooter rack.I carried the same model of scooters on this van.The Laika had a MTPLM of 3850kgs.I do not notice any difference in driving characteristics do to loading on the Chausson to the Laika. Also when the Chausson is fully loaded for Spain there is no noticable rear end droop.

I have never felt the need for air suspension plus this would add extra weight to the rear axle.

 

I can and have loaded the scooter alone.I use the engine to assist the run up my lightweight folding ramps into to the garage but it is useful to have a second pair of hands for steadying.At 73 years old I am not as strong as I like to think)

Also 2 large doors give me the choice of which side to load.I have to remove the scooter mirrors and rear box,(A 3 minute job) and I use 4 eye bolts, bolted into the van chasis members, along with 4 ratchet straps.

If there is a small drawback with a garage its that any odours you expect from a warm petrol engine

can on short occasions be noticed inside the Van.

From an insurance aspect both my Van and Scooter providers are aware I carry a Scooter and I have had

no cocerns.

 

I hope this helps you.

 

Regards

[Ipetchey]

Motorhometone - 2012-12-16 10:54 AM

 

Hi Ipetchy,

Sorry for slow reply.

Chausson Welcome 75 MIRO 3015 Kgs includes Driver, 90% Fuel

MTPLM 3500 Kgs

Payload 475 Kgs

 

My previous van was a Laika Ecovic 7r which was manafactured with a wind out scooter rack.I carried the same model of scooters on this van.The Laika had a MTPLM of 3850kgs.I do not notice any difference in driving characteristics do to loading on the Chausson to the Laika. Also when the Chausson is fully loaded for Spain there is no noticable rear end droop.

I have never felt the need for air suspension plus this would add extra weight to the rear axle.

 

I can and have loaded the scooter alone.I use the engine to assist the run up my lightweight folding ramps into to the garage but it is useful to have a second pair of hands for steadying.At 73 years old I am not as strong as I like to think)

Also 2 large doors give me the choice of which side to load.I have to remove the scooter mirrors and rear box,(A 3 minute job) and I use 4 eye bolts, bolted into the van chasis members, along with 4 ratchet straps.

If there is a small drawback with a garage its that any odours you expect from a warm petrol engine

can on short occasions be noticed inside the Van.

From an insurance aspect both my Van and Scooter providers are aware I carry a Scooter and I have had

no cocerns.

 

I hope this helps you.

 

Regards

Very useful info... Not thought about insurance.... Nice to know.

Kind regards

Ian and Leigh

[Guest peter]

Forget racks and garages and get one of these.

[oldtiff]

I have done it on the cheap. i use a yamaha v80 circa 1982 it weighs 75kgs and carries 2.

Fitted a german scooter carrier to my Homecar 62(renault master chassis). up rated via svtech no enginering required, to 3.9 tons. added air suspension one afternoon, no weight increase by this part. have travelled to Morroco and back no problems.

Untill i got to London. had a nice letter from the mayor saying do not return as my lez aproval was made invalid by changing my class from private light goods to phgv.

You cannot win them all.

Just avoid the PSA vehicles of the previous models as they still have clutch life problems and the extra load will not help.

[Ipetchey]

peter - 2012-12-17 7:59 PM

 

Forget racks and garages and get one of these.

 

I looked at their web page, interesting. But it still must be very difficult to reverse, even with swivel wheels. I am guessing that you would not be able to see anything of the trailer / scooter in your rear view mirrors.

 

Have you got one? How do you get on with reversing?

 

Ian and Leigh

[Derek Uzzell]

rupert123 - 2012-12-15 12:11 PM

 

neilmac - 2012-12-14 8:01 PM

 

rupert123 - 2012-12-14 7:14 PM

 

Neil the bit about the 60% of wheelbase simply is not correct, the calculation is much more complicated than that.

 

Perhaps you can enlighten us :-)

 

The newer calculation involves the width at rear, radii on corners, turning circle at wheels and rear of vehicle. I cannot remember where the full details can be found but a search of government sites for anyone who is bothered should turn it up. As for a scooter rack adding to the vehicle length for the calculation this depends on whether it is a permanent fixture or can be removed without tools so is a temporary one.

 

(Summarised) overhang rules are as follows:

 

For cars and heavy motor cars (eg. motorhomes) the maximum permitted rear overhang of the body beyond the wheelbase must not exceed 60% of the vehicle's wheelbase.

 

In the case of a two-axled vehicle, the overhang is measured from the centre line of the rear axle.

 

In the case of a three-axled vehicle, overhang is measured from a point 110 millimetres to the rear of a point midway between the centres of the two rear-most axles.

 

The wheelbase itself is measured from the centre of the front axle to the point from which overhang is measured.

 

ALTERNATIVELY, when a vehicle pulls away from a stationary postion on a 12.5 metre radius, the maximum distance its rear may swing out must not exceed 0.8 metres.

 

The application of this alternative formula has resulted in some two-axled motorhomes ending up with a rear overhang in excess of 70% of wheelbase.

 

(If you want some light reading relating to the 'alternative' formula, refer to Directive 97/27/EC.)