Weights, license, baby sleeping arrangements

[BigMacRacing]

Hi all,

 

Just joined after finding a few useful posts following a Google search...

 

I have recently purchased a CI Riviera 181, which is built off the Fiat Ducato - it's an XLWB, 2.8 JTD, 1st registered September 2000. It's classified on the V5 as a Motor Caravan and PLG. It doesn't provide any detailed specs on the V5 with regards to weights, etc. Although I found some stats on some other website for this model-not sure if correct though.

 

I found the chassis plate by the bonnet latch - could you let me know what each of the figures are please? The main figures are stated as follows in this order:

 

3500 KG

5500KG

1- 1850 KG

2- 2120 KG

 

My guess is 1st figure is the max weight that cannot be exceeded, 2nd figure I'm not sure, 3rd is the front axle max weight, 4th is the rear axle max weight - just my guesses..?? It doesn't seem to provide max towing weight from what I can see.

 

I passed my driving test in '99 so I unfortunately do not have "grandfather rights" and therefore am limited to 3500KG and max of 750KG trailer....or if trailer is over 750KG, then total max of 3500KG.

 

The trailer will be over 750KG and I believe the max towing weight for this vehicle is 1200KG according to specs I found on web - be good to confirm for sure?

 

If I am correct and the plate suggests max is 3500KG, then all I will need to do is take the B+E trailer test to allow me to tow greater than 750KG.

 

I should really find a weighbridge to validate the as-is weight & the loaded weight to see what I can legally carry. Note, it does have extras such as top storage box, bike rack, awning, etc but won't plan to travel with water. I will need to carry tools (plus wife and little boy) so bit cautious what extra I'll be able to load. What happens if I got to a weighbridge and it's over - will they allow me to drive it home??

 

One last thing....any advice for how to handle bedtime for 1 year old, bearing in mind he is still in a cot? A guard for the side of bed or a small foldable cot...??

 

Thanks for any help! :-)

 

Kieren

 

 

[Guest JudgeMental]

Welcome :-D just weigh it, they are not the police so can't seize ...best weigh first with water gas and passenger on board, then you will know where you stand. If it turns out not to be practical which is not unusual. Try a company called SV Tech re a chassis upgrade.

 

 

When our children were young wife used to sleep with them, and I would sleep in other bed..as they got older most campers have a safety barrier that can stop them rolling out but would not stop a boisterous toddler! But if you have the floor room nothing wring with a foldable cot , maybe even better to be honest....

[BigMacRacing]

Thanks - yes I had seen a posts mentioning SV Tech - the problem here is it would cost me a small fortune, as I'd then have to pay for those upgrades and also 2 new licenses to allow me to drive it...I really hope I can load all that is needed with current plate :-)

 

We'll need to do some research to see if there is a small enough travel cot but it may be that co-sleeping is only option.

 

Cheers

[pepe63xnotuse]

Hi

Just a quickie..the 5500kg figure,is your Gross Train weight(..so the all-up max weight of van and trailer).

 

And as you say,it'd be far easier(cheaper) if you can manage within 3500kg ....

 

(..just don't get into the habit of lugging about surplus "just in case" stuff!... (lol) )

[Tracker]

The first priority is to fully load it with everything you would take away and visit a weighbridge to get the ACTUAL individual axle weights and the actual GVW.

 

Until you do this everything else weightwise is pure conjecture.

 

Let us know how you get on and someone will be able to advise on what - if anything - you need to do.

[BigMacRacing]

Thanks guys.

 

Yes I agree, I need to get to a weighbridge and see the actuals :-)

[Derek Uzzell]

BigMacRacing

 

Are you sure about the 5500kg (Gross Train Weight) figure? It seems high to me and I would have thought - from the chassis specification you've quoted - that it would be no greater than 5200kg.

 

Can I also ask where on-line you found an indicator that there was a 1200kg towing limit? The rule-of-thumb is that, if the 1st figure on the VIN-plate is subtracted from the 2nd, the result will be the maximum weight that can legally be towed by the vehicle. In your case, that would be 5500kg-3500kg=2000kg.

 

I think Year-2000 CI Riviera 181s would have been built on a Ducato 'Maxi' chassis. This would tally with your quoted 1850kg/2120kg axle-weight limits. I also think they were marketed in two formats, one with a 3500kg maximum overall weight and another with a 3850kg maximum overall weight. Both variants would have been identical other than the difference in the 1st figure shown on the VIN-plate, though (as you are aware) you could not legally drive the 3850kg version on a "B" driving-licence entitlement.

 

The Riviera 181 is not a small vehicle (and has 6 passenger-seats if I remember correctly), but you should be OK payload-wise with two adults and a small child. As JudgeMental advises, it would be wise to weight the vehicle just to be sure.

 

 

[BigMacRacing]

Derek,

 

Yes, it is 5500 but wasn't sure what it related to before posting on here.

 

I can't remember which website it was but with it being a random search I wanted to verify the actual specs for the vehicle.

 

It certainly isn't a small thing and there are 4 belted seats in total. I've looked up where my local weighbridge is so I'll try and make that journey soon and report back. I guess I had better get total weight and also take weights of each axle too.

 

Cheers

[Guest peter]

5,500 Kgs gross train sounds about right to me. My Rapido 710F had a GTW of 5,500 Kgs with the 2.8 engine.

[BigMacRacing]

So if 2000 KG is allowed as a towing limit, then I could potentially add some load on trailer if I see too much over axles after weigh in....

[Guest JudgeMental]

BigMacRacing - 2013-02-26 2:36 PM

 

So if 2000 KG is allowed as a towing limit, then I could potentially add some load on trailer if I see too much over axles after weigh in....

 

trailers a hassle....You dont even know where you stand yet. IF you dont have enough payload and on a maxi chassis personally I would get the upgrade which should hopefully only be a paper exercise and a few hundred quid, and apply for the license to drive it.

 

if you start working out price of towbar and trailer, cost on ferrys and toll roads etc ..eplus all the hassle of towing and parking, I think an upgrade route would be a better idea

 

Just remember even if you get it to 3850kg it can still be overloaded on the respective axles so you still need to be careful. that is why you should visit weigbridge twice. initially unloaded to know where you stand. then loaded to see if @ 3850 the axles are still within capacity.

 

really much easier to get a weighbridge ticket from seller as past of the purchase aggrement before buying vans :-|

[Tracker]

really much easier to get a weighbridge ticket from seller as part of the purchase agreement before buying vans

 

Not really - unless it is as a statement of MIRO (unladen weight) of basic van and added accessories prior to any added load - as you won't know what was included and what was not and will not get a true picture, apart from which the previous owner's idea of laden may well differ from your own needs?

 

Also if towing a small trailer behind a Motorhome a reversing camera is very handy, if not essential, for seeing what the trailer is doing as I doubt you will be able to see any of it in your mirrors - ever tried reversing a trailer you can't see? Tricky!!

[Guest peter]

I agree with Jugementals post above. Much better idea to get a chassis upgrade rather than tow a trailer all the time. It's not that expensive and may not need anything doing to the van. Thye previous owner of my van went through the paper only excercise in case he needed more payload. But fortunately didn't complete it as he didn't notify the DVLA and had the reg' document changed. I could still do it, but don't fancy paying extra on the Austrian motorways with having to have a go box. Plus the reduced speed limit that a 3850 upgrade would entail.

Would you really want to tow a two ton trailer, I wouldn't. Not to mention the reduced speed limits and higher fuel consumption.

[HWO]

From what little I know about it,it is a great deal of hassle and expense for a non-grandad licence holder to upgrade to the over 3.5ton licence.

 

The only realistic option is to stick to the 3.5 limit.

 

HWO

[BigMacRacing]

Sorry, I didn't explain before - I have to tow a trailer as it's a race car so motorhome's primary use is for race events.

 

As mentioned to upgrade licenses, it would cost me a fortune so sticking to 3500 KG is really the only option in my scenario.

 

Thanks all - will try get to weighbridge soon :-)

[Patricia]

HWO - 2013-02-26 5:02 PM

 

From what little I know about it,it is a great deal of hassle and expense for a non-grandad licence holder to upgrade to the over 3.5ton licence.

 

The only realistic option is to stick to the 3.5 limit.

 

HWO

 

I am sure you are right. I believe my grandson-in-law had to pay £1500+ to gain his licence to drive over the 3.5 limit and it was a great hassle too.

[colin]

BigMacRacing - 2013-02-26 8:24 PM

 

Sorry, I didn't explain before - I have to tow a trailer as it's a race car so motorhome's primary use is for race events.

 

As mentioned to upgrade licenses, it would cost me a fortune so sticking to 3500 KG is really the only option in my scenario.

 

Thanks all - will try get to weighbridge soon :-)

 

Do you know the weight of trailer+race car? Are you hoping to use 'excess' payload of van to counteract over 750kg? If so I think you'll be struggling.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Patricia - 2013-02-26 8:26 PM

 

HWO - 2013-02-26 5:02 PM

 

From what little I know about it,it is a great deal of hassle and expense for a non-grandad licence holder to upgrade to the over 3.5ton licence.

 

The only realistic option is to stick to the 3.5 limit.

 

HWO

 

I am sure you are right. I believe my grandson-in-law had to pay £1500+ to gain his licence to drive over the 3.5 limit and it was a great hassle too.

 

Think you lot are getting confused with requirements of a commercial licence

[Mel B]

Don't forget when you go to the weighbridge to allow for all the clobber you'll need for your son too, clothes, toys, pushchair etc, as well and him and your wife, ideally sited in the seats they'll travel in normally - as an aside, when fitting the child seat you should ALWAYS put it on the rear seat nearest to the window - if you put it on the one nearest to the aisle it will FALL OFF when you go round a corner!!! 8-)

 

Once you've got your weighbridge figures, let us know them and we'll be able to advise further. :-D

[Keithl]

And one final thing to throw into the equation...

 

When you hitch up your trailer the downforce on the hitch will count as part of your payload so ideally you will need the fully loaded trailer attached when you visit the weighbridge (but only the MH on the scales).

 

Unfortunately it is not simply a matter of adding the hitch weight to the rear axle figure as it acts a long way behind the axle and will tend to transfer some weight off the front axle. There are formulas around for calculating the effect of adding a bike or scooter rack which has the same effect if you understand basic maths.

 

Keith.

 

PS And welcome to the forum and I had guessed by your name why you where towing a trailer :D

[BigMacRacing]

Thanks all.

Problem is that car is undergoing a rebuild ahead of season start so won't be able to weigh with it hitched on...ummm

[Guest JudgeMental]

BigMacRacing - 2013-02-26 11:14 PM

 

Thanks all.

Problem is that car is undergoing a rebuild ahead of season start so won't be able to weigh with it hitched on...ummm

 

The plot thickens...tell us more about car and trailer plse :-D

[Keithl]

BigMacRacing - 2013-02-26 11:14 PM

 

Thanks all.

Problem is that car is undergoing a rebuild ahead of season start so won't be able to weigh with it hitched on...ummm

 

If you know the usual noseweight you will be towing at then simply place weights on the trailer to simulate this OR probably far easier just to add the weight directly to the towball. If say 75 kg then get a medium sized person to stand on the towbar when on the weigh scales!

 

Keith.

[HWO]

JudgeMental - 2013-02-26 8:37 PM

 

Patricia - 2013-02-26 8:26 PM

 

HWO - 2013-02-26 5:02 PM

 

From what little I know about it,it is a great deal of hassle and expense for a non-grandad licence holder to upgrade to the over 3.5ton licence.

 

The only realistic option is to stick to the 3.5 limit.

 

HWO

 

I am sure you are right. I believe my grandson-in-law had to pay £1500+ to gain his licence to drive over the 3.5 limit and it was a great hassle too.

 

Think you lot are getting confused with requirements of a commercial licence

 

Think you will find that is exactly what you need to get. you don't just go for the motorhome upgrade.

HWO

[Derek Uzzell]

A summary of the situation as I understand it...

 

Kieren (BigMacRacing) has a 2000 CI Riviera 181 motorhome. This is built on a Fiat Ducato 18 ‘maxi’ chassis with a Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass (MTPLM) of 3500kg and a Gross Train Weight (GTW) of 5500kg.

 

Kieren has a Category B driving-licence entitlement and, as he intends to tow his race-car (presumably still a Mini Se7en for 2013) with the motorhome, he will need to upgrade his licence to Category B+E, a relatively inexpensive process. http://tinyurl.com/ccoqbgm

 

The CI Riviera was a relatively large design, with the potential to sleep 6 people. The January 2002 issue of “Which Motorcaravan” quoted (for the 3500kg MTPLM version) a Mass In Running Order (MIRO) of 2930kg, giving a payload of 570kg. However, there’s no way of knowing whether that MIRO datum included weight allowances for water and gas.

 

Kieren’s motorhome will be carrying two adults and a young child. The vehicle has extras (top-box, awning, bike-rack) and will, of course, need a tow-bar. All of these things will eat into the payload and it would be wise to weigh the motorhome to confirm that, in fully loaded state, its 3500kg MTPLM won’t be exceeded. As the Ducato ‘maxi’ chassis has been used, it’s unlikely that the 1850kg(front) and 2120kg(rear) maximum axle-loadings will be problematical, but the vehicle’s fully-loaded weight may be close to 3500kg.

 

Although ‘up-plating’ the motorhome to 3850 MTPLM should be straightforward (probably just a paper exercise), it would be costly (Patricia’s ball-park £1500+ figure is wholly realistic) for Kieren to obtain a driving-licence entitlement to allow him to drive an over-3500kg MTPLM vehicle. Anyway, Kiernen has (very sensibly) rejected that option.

 

As I said earlier, the result of subtracting MTPLM from GTW will usually be the weight of the trailer that the vehicle manufacturer authorises can be towed. For Kiernen’s Riviera that would be 2000kg.

 

On-line comments suggest that 2000kg is right for this Ducato chassis, but it has been known for a motorhome manufacturer to specify a lower trailer-weight limit. It might be possible to confirm the 2000kg figure via the importer

 

CI Motorhomes

Trigano House

Genesis Way

Europarc

Grimsby

Lincolnshire

DN37 9TU

 

Tel: 01472 571 000

Fax: 01472 5710 01

 

or via the Fiat forum http://www.fiatforum.com/ or via the CI section of the MotorHomeFacts forum http://tinyurl.com/ctwve5w (Personally, I’d be comfortable assuming the trailer-weight maximum was 2000kg.) Should the motorhome exceed its MTPLM when weighed in fully-loaded trim, moving stuff to the trailer would be an acceptable ploy.

 

As has already been advised, the trailer will exert a downwards force on the motorhome’s tow-hitch. Keithl’s suggestion that a fair-sized adult stand on the tow-hitch when the motorhome is being weighed would be the simplest way to simulate that force.

 

Towing will also place a significant additional load on the motorhome’s transmission. Pre-2002 Ducatos had a big gap between 4th and 5th gear ratios, and a reputation for problems with 5th gear. http://tinyurl.com/csakyum A precautionary gearbox oil-change might be worthwhile http://tinyurl.com/cdhlbmr

 

Tyre pressures should be appropriate for the tyres fitted to Kiernen’s motorhome, and the tyre valves should be appropriate for the pressures. If pressures over 60psi are to be used, it would be wise for metal clamp-in valves of the type shown here http://tinyurl.com/cxpmqmg to be employed rather than common-or-garden 'car' rubber snap-in valves.