Clarification of the law Required.

[Rayjsj]

Hello all,

I have looked at several websites trying to clarify if ; having a reversing camera on all the time, acting as a 'Blind spot' camera, is legal or not ? My Autotrail has a reversing camera fitted, and it only works when reverse is engaged (and boy, is it slow coming on). Now, my van has no windows in the rear panel, so, no through vision. I want to get a small monitor that clips over the 'fitted' but useless windscreen mounted rear view mirror .

I contacted Autotrail after sales (this is/was a new van, still under warranty) and they said 'it's illegal' and would say nothing further, no discussion, no advice. end of.

Surely a Sat-Nav stuck on the windscreen is just as distracting as a rear view monitor would be, indeed less so, as I would check it only the same as i would check a rear view mirror ?

Technically i am sure I could 'do the job', but an official 'wiring diagram' and a bit of friendly advice wouldn't have hurt them. (in my opinion). Are they correct.

SO, any takers ? is it Legal or Not. ?? Ray

[paulmold]

Have a read of this, can't see it being illegal...

 

http://www.4kam.com/roadeye_wireless_reversing_camera.htm

[Rayjsj]

seems I should have done the 'Search' on this website, Derek answered my question back in 2007,

 

Autotrail are technically correct, as THEIR monitor,built into the dash, also doubles(trebles) as a TV/ DVD/ sat-nav/Radio as well as a Reverse camera monitor, BUT I didn't want to use THEIR (my) monitor, I wanted a separate monitor that clipped over the rear view mirror, AND it appears that THAT is legal (according to Derek and Dave Newell). I just need to sort out the correct feeds, so that I utilize THEIR (my) reverse camera and my (new) monitor. (got all that ?). But they (Autotrail) were not very helpful, especially to a customer who recently spent rather a lot of money on one of THEIR products. does everyone get treated like that by them ? or was it just me.

The last time I got spoken to like that was by Swift, and I was asking if they had any Autocruise spares for a 2005 van....polite they were not ! would never touch another Swift product since. Ray

[Pampam]

Hello rayjis we had a 2012 apache and the reversing camera took ages to click on when put in reverse previous to that we had a 2009 Cheyenne which came on almost immediately we now have a 2010 arapaho which comes on straight away so it seems to be a problem with newer vans luckily we can see through rear window but the wait when you put it into gear could be embarrassing if others waiting for you to make a manoeuvre so I sympathise your predicament can't dealer sort it out we should have had ours dealt with but exchanged for different van good luck pp ps I'm sure you can get rear view monitors to replace your mirror

[Guest pelmetman]

I have mine on all the time :D..................but I like living on the edge............I even go to France without a Breathalyzer >:-)

[Mel B]

We have a monitor which clips over the top of the existing rear-view mirror, the monitor is wired to a small camera at the rear of our van, above the rear doors. As we put this on ourselves, and on a previous MH too, we wired it so it actually runs of a 12v cigarette lighter socket so we can have it on all the time and therefore use it as a rear-view mirror and by default for reversing.

 

The below photos show it when we had it in our Chausson and we just removed it and transferred it to our current PVC (I haven't got any photos of it installed on it though!).

[Brian Kirby]

Rayjsj - 2013-08-05 6:42 PM

 

Hello all,

I have looked at several websites trying to clarify if ; having a reversing camera on all the time, acting as a 'Blind spot' camera, is legal or not ? My Autotrail has a reversing camera fitted, and it only works when reverse is engaged (and boy, is it slow coming on). Now, my van has no windows in the rear panel, so, no through vision. ................ SO, any takers ? is it Legal or Not. ?? Ray

FWIW, my understanding is that providing what is visible on the screen irelates to driving the vehicle, it is legal. Such systems are quite comon on trucks and coaches, whether they show the side view, rear view when reversing, or act as a rear view mirror substitute.

 

AFAIK, it matters not whether it could, technically, show alternative media when driving, it is whether it is doing so that counts.

 

If the rear view system is being used as an aid to driving safety, it is, to the best of my knowledge, entirely legal, and I have been using one on that basis for the past seven years.

 

What is illegal, is having a video or TV system active in the vehicle while it is being driven, which is within the driver's field of view.

 

Neither does it matter, AFAIK, what type or size the monitor is, so long as it does not impede the driver's view of the road ahead, as seen through the swept area of the windscreen wipers, obstruct his view of the external mirrors, or obstruct his view out through the side cab windows.

[Guest peter]

We have a GPS with a 7" screen on all the time, I don't see the problem.

[Rayjsj]

peter - 2013-08-05 11:04 PM

 

We have a GPS with a 7" screen on all the time, I don't see the problem.

 

 

 

No, neither do I, but Autotrail seem to be convinced that it is illegal ? None of their vans have the facility to 'turn on' the reverse camera while the vehicle is travelling fowards. And I would like to. Ray

 

I don't want to watch TV/dvd's or anything else, i much prefere my TomTom, to the supplied Sat nav anyway.

[Arthur Brown]

It is illegal to watch TV from the drivers seat whilst travelling. CCTV is not the same. If you choose a rear view mirror option then you are just reflecting what you would have seen if you had a window in the back. It does not have to be monitored as a rear view mirror monitor. As has been said, think of it as an aid to safer driving and knowledge of what is to your rear is an advantage and an aid to safer driving. Many people look upon CCTV as TV and the two should not be confused. I have two cameras, one showing down to show where my bumper is in relation to the kerb etc. The other is set as a rear view mirror and I have used the facility to show real rear view. That may sound daft to anyone who has not come across it but you can get the view behind (which is not a rear view mirror view) or you can get a rear view mirror view. In reply to your post, you can have constant rear view on your monitor. it is not TV which of course is illegal, Autotrail should read the law, not what they would like it to be.

Art

[George Collings]

The use of a television screen in a vehicle is governed by section 109 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986.

This section bans the use of a TV screen or similar viewing equipment in a road vehicle where it can be seen by a driver including by reflection but there are exceptions.

 

It can be used to convey information about the state of the vehicle or its equipment or where the vehicle is located, to help the driver to see the road around him (rear or side view in addition to obligatory mirrors) or get to his destination (i.e. a sat-nav system).

Far from being illegal such equipment can make a very positive contribution to road safety.

[Brian Kirby]

Rayjsj - 2013-08-06 9:30 PM................No, neither do I, but Autotrail seem to be convinced that it is illegal ? None of their vans have the facility to 'turn on' the reverse camera while the vehicle is travelling fowards. And I would like to. Ray................

I don't really understand why you are getting quite so hung up on Autotrail's advice, Ray.

 

If they have fully understood the point of your question, the answer provided is wrong, or at least misleading.

 

Here is the bit George is referring to: Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations

 

Regulation 109

 

"Television sets

 

109.—(1) No person shall drive, or cause or permit to be driven, a motor vehicle on a road, if the driver is in such a position as to be able to see, whether directly or by reflection, a television receiving apparatus or other cinematographic apparatus used to display anything other than information—

(a) about the state of the vehicle or its equipment; .

(b) about the location of the vehicle and the road on which it is located; .

© to assist the driver to see the road adjacent to the vehicle; or .

(d) to assist the driver to reach his destination. .

 

(2) In this regulation “television receiving apparatus” means any cathode ray tube carried on a vehicle and on which there can be displayed an image derived from a television broadcast, a recording or a camera or computer."

 

I suggest you send a copy to Autotrail for their information! :-) Oh, and let's not get into the difference between an LCD screen and a cathode ray tube, M'Lud! :-D

[spospe]

Autosleeper fit a reversing camera and display unit (which completely covers the rear view mirror) as standard on the Warwick Duo.

[Derek Uzzell]

A number of supercars have been factory-fitted with a camera/monitor system to provide a rearwards view when their design makes an interior rear-view mirror inpracticable. And, as low fuel consumption becomes an ever-more-important selling point, there will be a move to dispense with drag-inducing exterior mirrors. VW's ultra-aerodynamic XL1 has no 'wing mirrors'.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car-manufacturers/volkswagen/9909255/Volkswagen-XL1-review.html

 

The legality issue seems to have been adequately addressed on the forum back in 2007

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Rear-view-cameras-legal-or-what-/8604/

 

and in a parliamentary question in 2005

 

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmhansrd/vo050317/text/50317w03.htm

 

And (as George and Brian have pointed out) Regulation 109 seems clear enough.

[AliB]

Many motorhome manufacturers now offer a twin lens camera to be used for reversing/en route driving. Example of Swift, see the options list.

http://www.swiftgroup.co.uk/motorhomes/swift/sundance/prices.

 

Ray you should tell Autotrail they need to revise their advise. Or tell you exactly which law is being contravened.

 

We have sold and fitted many twin lens cameras to all sorts of vehicle and organisations, councils, buses etc.

 

If they are illegal I'd better retire now. Now there's an idea!

[Keithl]

I think the problem here is that the AutoTrail fitted screen CAN show TV and as such if it did it would be illegal.

All these other systems mentioned CANNOT display TV and hence are 100% legal.

 

AutoTrail are protecting there ars*s by only enabling the system when in reverse.

 

If you where to replace the AT screen with a dedicated rear view screen then there would be absolutely no problem in using it all the time.

 

Keith.

 

PS There was a write up on the ATOC website about how one owner had re-wired his system to work all the time, if you want I'll try and find a link to it.

[Derek Uzzell]

Keithl - 2013-08-09 11:08 AM

 

I think the problem here is that the AutoTrail fitted screen CAN show TV and as such if it did it would be illegal.

All these other systems mentioned CANNOT display TV and hence are 100% legal...

 

 

That's not the case. Many of the monitors used with reversing camera systems have the ability to display input from sources other than the reversing camera, and a good few modern cars have multimedia systems. For example:

 

http://www.avit-audio.co.uk/porsche-cayenne-digital-tv---reversing-camera.htm

 

The offence (as Brian advises) is not having equipment in a vehicle that CAN display 'non-driver-aid' information (eg. TV programmes), but USING such equipment for that purpose. (I can legally own and drive a car with 200mph potential. It only becomes illegal when I decide to exploit that potential driving on UK roads.)

 

Even if Ray chose to disable the interlock that prevented Auto-Trail's own dashboard-mounted monitor from operating only when the vehicle is reversed, allowing the monitor to take its input continuously from the reversing camera, that wouldn't be illegal. However, if Ray chose to use that monitor's capability to display TV/DVD output while he's driving, it would be illegal. In practice, Ray wants to fit a supplementary monitor (linked to the original camera) to provide a continuous rear-view mirror capability and has been advised by Auto-Trail that this would be illegal.

 

Personally, I've some sympathy with Auto-Trail not being prepared to cooperate with the owner of an under-warranty motohome who is planning to DIY a modification to the vehicle's factory-fitted equipment . My 'friendly advice' would have been "I'm not able to advise you how to do this and I can't provide a wiring diagram. If you do add the extra mirror and there are consequential problems, those problems won't be dealt with under warranty." I just wouldn't have mentioned illegality.