zak2442 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Hi Guys Phoned a well known Towbar installer today looking to get one fitted to my Fiat Ducato,They asked me what i intended pulling i informed them it would be for pulling a small car on an a-frame. The salesman then informed me to be careful as it looks like the law will be changing next year which would make the a-frame illegal,anyone know of this or can give me some info dont want to spent thousands on Bar,Frame and small car if this is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 I suspect that your towbar salesman has in mind 2014 regulatory changes that would appear to outlaw the inertiia-braking systems traditionally employed on the type of A-frame most commonly used by motorcaravanners to tow cars. I'm going to direct you to this earlier forum thread that, while initially dealing with A-frame towing in France, from postings beginning 27 July 2012 onwards goes on to discuss the inertia-braking issue. http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/What-is-the-law-on-A-Frame-Towing-in-France-/28292/ You may also find this link helpful. http://www.towtal.co.uk/motorhome-a-frames/aframes-2014-truth-so-far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 I was 'actively' looking for an A-frame system, but on reading the 'blurb' even on the makers own websites, it is ALL down to the whim of VOSA or whatever quango is in charge, as to whether the forthcoming EU law, which will outlaw inertia braked cars being towed on A-Frames, will be RETROSPECTIVELY enforced. If it is , then all the folk who have such systems will suddenly become lawbreakers (and there are many,many of them). So, I am not prepared to Gamble the £1000 or so, which it costs to fit our Yaris with the bracket, and buy the A-frame. Looking for a decent second hand Trailer, although the combined weight will probably go above my vans present limit. Question : Autotrail have a 'Weight sticker' under the bonnet ,which says max towed weight 1040 kgs, yet the Fiat Riveted weight Plate says 1500 kgs. Which is correct ? Also: The latest Autotrail Savannah (2013) has a Max Towed weight of 1250 kg (with no modifications from 2012). Can my 'Towed weight' upgraded ?? is it just a 'Paper execise'. ? As you can see the 'A-frame' route was preferable and more 'Lawful' Weight wise. Ray Just had a 'Type approved' Witter towbar fitted, the words 'Type Approved' appear to be a license to 'Print Money', what was £350 suddenly became £750 ! What a con ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zak2442 Posted October 26, 2013 Author Share Posted October 26, 2013 Hi Rayjsj Was thinking of a trailer only problem being is when you turn up on site you will be taking up space of 3 vehicles,Motorhome/trailer and tow car,just can't win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mildi Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Hi zac2442 We have just spent six months with MH and car on a trailer touring Europe, we only had one campsite where it was not big enough to fit all on a pitch. Only charged extra for the car on 3 occasions as we don't take up much more room than a caravan+car. If the pitch was tight we just kept the ramps down and parked the car on the trailer when we were not using it. The only thing I would suggest is get a motor mover fitted to the trailer or you may find you have to un hitch the trailer remove the car push the trailer on the pitch then park the car and then the MH. We un hitch the trailer use the mover to park the trailer with the car still on it, just takes 5 minutes and doesn't brake your back. Well worth paying the extra. Plus point is that you can reverse with the trailer something I have been very grateful on this trip, also if you find after a while that you don't like towing with the trailer you can sell it and you haven't altered anything on your car. Also if you change you car that's all you need to do. This is not a dig at A frames I like the idea but was just to many grey areas for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Rayjsj - 2013-10-26 12:55 PM I was 'actively' looking for an A-frame system, but on reading the 'blurb' even on the makers own websites, it is ALL down to the whim of VOSA or whatever quango is in charge, as to whether the forthcoming EU law, which will outlaw inertia braked cars being towed on A-Frames, will be RETROSPECTIVELY enforced... Although there's always the possibility that the 2014 inertia-braking regulations will be applied retrospectively, the probability of this happening is, in my view, minimal. As far as I'm aware no vehicle-related technical regulatory changes have been applied retrospectively in the UK - that's why ancient vehicles, despite being health and safety nightmares, can still legally be driven on our roads. There's no logical reason why there should be a reversal in historical precedent where existing inertia-braked A-frames are concerned. In any case, there have been - for some time - alternative A-frame car-towing systems that don't use inertia-braking and opting for one such system in 2013 would sidestep the 2014 potential problem. (Of course, whatever were decided regarding the 2014 rule change and retrospection, and whatever A-frame system were chosen, the situation regarding the A-frame practice's 'legality' outside the UK will be unaffected.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Rayjsj - 2013-10-26 12:55 PM Question : Autotrail have a 'Weight sticker' under the bonnet ,which says max towed weight 1040 kgs, yet the Fiat Riveted weight Plate says 1500 kgs. Which is correct ? Also: The latest Autotrail Savannah (2013) has a Max Towed weight of 1250 kg (with no modifications from 2012). Can my 'Towed weight' upgraded ?? is it just a 'Paper exercise'? Ray, The latest plate takes precedence so the AT plate at 1,040 kg is the definitive. It is probably reduced by the rear overhang of the bodywork. I doubt if your towing weight can be uprated but it may be worth asking AT or SV Tech. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 I have sent an E-mail to Autotrail's technical department to ask about the (Low) towing limit, 1040kg as opposed to the latest Savannah's 1250 kg. and if anything can be done to avoid me 'technically' breaking the law ? I await a response. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Have you looked to see what the vehicle GTW is? It may be that AT have increased the MAM to a figure higher than the original value for the base vehicle. If they have, the increased MAM will still be subject to the original GTW, so leaving a reduced towing weight. I think it unlikely the GTW could be increased since it is governed by engineering criteria. It represents the maximum wiight at which the vehicle can be started from standstill on a given gradient. Not sure of the gradient, but maybe 10% from memory. I'm unsure what the legal status of the AT imposed trailer weight limit actually has. In UK, GTW is taken to mean the sum of the actual laden weight of the tow vehicle, plus the actual laden weight of the trailer so, if the actual laden weight of a vehicle is below its MAM, the difference can be added to a trailer - provided that 1) the trailer MAM is sufficient and 2) that the GTW is not thereby exceeded. However, outside UK this interpretation seems not to be accepted, and the GTW is taken to be the sum of the trailer MAM plus the tow vehicle MAM. So, with a fine towing limit, and if intending to travel abroad with the rig, make sure the trailer is plated to just sufficient for the car plus its self-weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Rayjsj - 2013-10-27 1:09 PM I have sent an E-mail to Autotrail's technical department to ask about the (Low) towing limit, 1040kg as opposed to the latest Savannah's 1250 kg. and if anything can be done to avoid me 'technically' breaking the law ? I await a response. Ray Auto-Trail's 2012 and 2013 brochures provide these weight-related data for a Frontier Savannah Max. Front Axle Loading - 2100kg Max. Rear Axle Loading - 2400kg Max. Gross Weight - 4250kg Max. Gross Train Weight - 5290kg Max. Towing Weight - 1040kg The Max. Towing Weight (as is normally the case) is the difference between the Max. Gross Weight and the Max. Gross Train Weight (5290kg-4250kg=1040kg) The 2014 brochure data are as follows: Max. Front Axle Loading - 2100kg Max. Rear Axle Loading - 2400kg Max. Gross Weight - 4250kg Max. Gross Train Weight - 5500kg Max. Towing Weight - 1250kg For 2014 Frontier Savannah models, the Max. Gross Train Weight has increased from 5290kg to 5500kg and the Max. Towing Weight has risen accordingly (5500kg-4250kg=1250kg) My understanding is that 2012, 2013 and 2014 Frontier Savannah's all use Fiat's 'camping-car' chassis (not an Al-Ko chassis). Whether the 2014 chassis is 'stronger' than its predecessors, or the rear extension to the chassis is 'stronger' is anybody's guess, but the reason why the Max.Towing Weight for a 2014 Savannah has risen by 210kg compared to 2012/2013 Savannah's is simply because the Max. Gross Train Weight for the 2014 model has increased by that amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Interesting. Fiat quote the GTW for the standard 3,500kg "heavy" chassis as 6,000kg (actually not stated as such, but as 3,500kg MAM + 2,500 max trailer weight). It seems AT have in effect re-plated the 3,500kg chassis up by allocating some of the trailer weight to the chassis MAM, and re-allocated only some of the reduced balance as max trailer weight. Maybe there is a chassis change, or maybe AT have made some weight savings that allows a higher MAM and GTW to be specified. Clearly they are not using the maxima authorised by Fiat for the chassis variants I have listed in my 2013 Fiat handbook, so some engineering consideration is coming into play. It may just be that unladen motorhomes run heavier than unladen panel vans, so it is judged unwise to utilise the full GTW. My only comment re towing with a Savannah is that long rear overhang, especially if towing a short trailer or towing a car on an A-frame. It is generally better to tow with a short rear overhang as this reduces rear sway. It is quite noticeable, when following (even driving!) vans with significant rear overhangs, that the rear end kicks around relativey more than in vans with shorter overhangs. That will translate to a lot of lateral movement at the tow-ball which may be OK for longer trailers, but has the potential to induce some instability in short trailers, and will endlessly "fidget" the steering of an A-frame towed car. This may not be apparent to the driver, as the car's steering will act as a sway damper to some extent, but the lateral forces so damped will be transferred to to car steering mechanism, and must then be absorbed by them. Didn't someone recently post that their A-framed car had a knocked out steering damper, that was allowing the steering wheel to windmill from lock to lock on tight turns? It is that sort of accellerated wear I have in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Current Ducato chassis variations are potentially confusing... The 'standard' Gross Vehicle Weight varies from 3000kg to 4000kg, but there are also 2 diffeent mechanical variations - "Ducato" and "Ducato Maxi" - with the latter having reinforced suspension and 16" wheels. Designation-wise, they are referred to as 35L (GVW up to 3500kg 'Light'), 35H (GVW up to 3500kg "Heavy" Maxi specification) or 40H (GVW up to 4000kg "Heavy" Maxi specification). These designators spill over on to the specialised camping-car and Al-Ko Ducato chassis versions. 2012, 2013 and 2014 Savannahs will all have been built on a 40H camping-car chassis with a 4250kg GVW, but a 2011 Savannah (though also based on a 40H camping-car chassis) had a 4005kg GVW and 5045kg GTW. Presumably Fiat authorised the GVW and GTW increases for 2012 and the further increase in GTW for 2014. A Max. Towing Weight datum won't appear on the vehicle's VIN plate but, if a motorhome converter has specified one and it's shown on an under-bonnet sticker or stated in product literature, I would expect there to be an obligation for the motorhome's owner not to exceed that figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 A brief follow-up... Auto-Trail brochures carry a footnote in the Chassis Specification section saying "* If the maximum authorised vehicle weight is not fully utilised, then the towable weight can be increased accordingly. The gross train figure however must not be exceeded." However, this footnote applies only to models using Al-Ko chassis. On that basis, it would appear that the Max.Towing Weight stated for models not employing an Al-Ko chassis is a genuine maximum that should not be exeeded even though the motorhome might be being operated below its Max. Gross Weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 All, The 'Fiat' riveted Weight plate, states the GTW at 6500kg ! why have Autotrail 'downrated' the GTW from 6500 kg ( a VERY high limit,) down to 5290 kg (for me, too low a limit). Can I just 'remove' the Autotrail weight sticker ? and revert to the original Fiat weight plate?. 'MY Savannah' is a Euro 5 2012 Model produced at the backend of 2011, Chassis is the Fiat Ducato Maxi with 16" wheels, checked out the type approved Witter tow bar (as recommended by Autotrail, it is a VERY substantial item, with reinforcing in several places along the rear of the chassis, no rear 'nudge' bar, and a removable tow ball, but as I have reversing sensors fitted that suits me fine. My Problem: an A-frame would be within towing limits, (but potentially illegal in the UK soon, AND definately Illegal in the rest of Europe) or a Trailer and my Toyota Yaris, which would weigh approx.(havn't boughjt a trailer yet !) 1250-1300 kg . Can't afford to buy another car either. Mmmm. (rubs chin thoughtfully). ;-) Ray I didn't know that Autotrail used the ALKO chassis on any of their newish CB's ? Autotrail have not answered my tech. query yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Rayjsj - 2013-10-28 3:49 PM .....The 'Fiat' riveted Weight plate, states the GTW at 6500kg ! why have Autotrail 'downrated' the GTW from 6500 kg ( a VERY high limit,) down to 5290 kg (for me, too low a limit). Ray As has been pointed out earlier in the thread(By Keith initially),I dare say it's because Autotrail have fitted additional rear framework... Ours is similar...Renault plate: 3500kgGVW/5500kg GTW Chausson plate: 3850kgGVW/4950kg GTW ...and no, you can't just remove the weight plate, just because you don't like what the numbers say. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 I suppose what I need to do is : rent a trailer of the type I intend to buy, load the van as if we are 'going away' load car onto trailer. Take complete unit to nearest weighbridge, Weigh complete outfit (to make sure it's at or below 5290 kgs) then remove trailer and car, weigh them together. and probably individually as well. That way at least I have a fair chance of 'getting it right' ! all this before I even Buy a trailer though ! Not easy is it ? Ray Come to think of it, I need to weigh the car (in running order) Before I decide on the best trailer to hire/buy. A nice a-frame would be so much less hassle ? wouldn't it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Rayjsj - 2013-10-28 3:49 PM I didn't know that Autotrail used the ALKO chassis on any of their newish CB's ? All Auto-Trail models with twin rear axles will have an Al-Ko chassis. No models with a single rear axle have (I believe) had an Al-Ko chassis from the 2012 model-year onwards. Prior to the 2012 model year, some Ducato-based models with a single rear axle had an Al-Ko chassis and some did not. It has to be said that the Ducato's camping-car chassis is a pretty lightweight structure, with the motohome's eventual strength coming from the addition of the coachbuilt body. It's possible that the Fiat GTW figure relates to a standard chassis, not the 'pared down' camping-car version, or that there's some formula where adding length to the camping-car chassis reduces its maximum GTW proportionately. I expect Auto-Trail's Dave Thomas would know. (As has been said so many times, selling or owning an A-frame is not illegal anywhere. It's towing using an A-frame that's potentially illegal.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 Rayjsj - 2013-10-28 4:21 PM I suppose what I need to do is : rent a trailer of the type I intend to buy, load the van as if we are 'going away' load car onto trailer. Take complete unit to nearest weighbridge, Weigh complete outfit (to make sure it's at or below 5290 kgs) then remove trailer and car, weigh them together. and probably individually as well. That way at least I have a fair chance of 'getting it right' ! all this before I even Buy a trailer though ! Not easy is it ? Ray Come to think of it, I need to weigh the car (in running order) Before I decide on the best trailer to hire/buy. A nice a-frame would be so much less hassle ? wouldn't it ? Have you weighed the Savannah fully laden, including the axle weights? If not, I think I would start there. Don't forget the towbar will add weight behind the rear axle, so transfer more than its self-weight to that axle with a corresponding amount coming off the front axle. The maker should be able to advise on weight, so its approximate effect can be calculated. Then weigh the car empty, with just a full tank of fuel. Trailer manufacturers should be able to quote you the unladen weight of the appropriate trailer: just keep the load margin as fine as possible. Add the car weight and you will know how big a problem you have re GTW. However, once the car is on the trailer it will (and must, for stability) transfer part (around 7%) of its weight onto the towball, which will transfer to the rear axle of the van with, again, the corresponding reduction in front axle load. These loads can all be calculated approximately, and I think it would be wise to do so once you have the basic information. If anything is getting close to its limit, tread very carefully before you spend any money. That is why I'm suggesting you start with the fully laden van and its axle loads. That is a long overhang, so the rear axle will load up quite quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Yes, but the question remains as to whether the 1040kg Max. Towing Weight - shown on the Auto-Trail sticker affixed to Ray's Savannah and in the relevant Auto-Trail brochures - is just the difference when the vehicle's 4250kg Max. Gross Weight is subtracted from its 5290kg Max. Gross Weight, or a fixed never-to-be-exceeded technical limit set by Auto-Trail. If it's the the former, there will be room to manoeuvre when it comes to towing a car as the GTW will take precedence. If it's the latter, towing a Toyota Yaris on a trailer or A-frame may not be legally practicable. Ray estimates that the weight of his Yaris + a trailer would be 1250-1300kg - well above the 1040kg figure. However, towing the vehicle on an A-frame may not offer a legal alternative if the Yaris's Max. Gross Weight (plus the A-frame's weight) exceeds 1040kg. The argument for legality when a car is A-frame towed in the UK is that the car is then considered to have transformed into a 'trailer'. As I understand it (and according to advice on the National Trailer & Towing Association's website), a consequence of this transformation is that the car's Max. Gross Weight (as shown on the vehicle's VIN-plate) now counts as the maximum 'trailer weight'. I don't know which year/version of Yaris Ray owns, but, as the Max.Gross Weight of all current Yaris models is over 1400kg, I suspect his Yaris's Max. Gross Weight exceeds 1040kg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Well, I have had a reply from Autotrail, they say that the 1040kg towed weight 'cannot' be increased, because that is what is stated on the 'COC' , The chassis on the 2013/2014 model Savannah has NOT been altered, but they decided to 'Up' the GTW on the 'COC' to give more Towing weight (presumably because others like me have had 'problems'). I am a (retired) engineer, and to me 'Physical limits' are what REALLY count (I built my own Motorcycle Racing sidecar outfit, and raced it 'Safely' for several seasons), not artificial 'Paper' exercises. My next contact will be SV Tech. But I suspect that the dreaded 'COC' will be the limiting factor. SO, It will HAVE to be an 'A-Frame' and no trips to the Continent. (Sorry mrs rjsj !) Ray The Yaris's(2010) weight (in 'running order' is just over a 1000kg, 1022kg with the spare wheel removed for travelling) which gives me 'Just' enough for the A-Frame, BUT not a trailer, unfortunately. The lightest trailer is about 400kg which is way 'out of reach'. I have no intention of loading my Yaris up to it's 'Max Gross' and THEN towing it. That would be plain stupid, AND dangerous now, wouldn't It !. The max 'Noseweight listed on the towbar is a 'Healthy' 135kg Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 It will be worth learning what SV Tech says, as on-line comments regarding 'up-plating' a motorhome's Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) via that company suggest that the Max. Train Weight is unaltered. I wasn't suggesting that you A-frame towed your Yaris loaded to to the GVW maximum shown on the car's VIN-plate, but (apparently) it's the GVW that matters legality-wise in the UK when the car 'becomes' a trailer, NOT the actual weight of the car when it is being towed. As far as UK 'legality' is concerned, physical limits, safety, or plain commonsense must be ignored. If Auto-Trail are adamant that the 1040kg figure is a technical maximum, then you won't be able to tow your Yaris legally on a trailer. Similarly, if UK trailer regulations define the weight of an A-frame towed car as the GVW figure on the car's VIN-plate, (I assume) you won't be able to tow your Yaris legally on an A-frame. Frankly, if I were in your position, I'd just tow the Yaris on an ordinary inertia-braked A-frame. I'm confident the 2014 inertia-braking rule changes will not be applied retrospectively and the 'GVW factor' relating to an A-frame towed car's allowable weight is a regulatory nicety that I suspect few A-frame users are aware of. You've got 1040kg towable weight to play with and, as long as your Yaris + A-frame is within that limit, and your Savannah's GVW, GTW and maximum axle-weights aren't exceeded, that should surely be good enough. As far as Continental European trips are concerned, it's plain that A-frame towing is currently frowned on by some countries (eg. Spain) and accepted, or tolerated, by others. Legal or not, A-frame towing seems to be tolerated in France (I've never heard of anybody being prosecuted for doing it in that country) and sale of A-frames in France is buoyant. In fact, Car-A-Tow's website says that they "...have now started selling Car-A-Tow Euro Towing Frames in Spain", so that could be interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Derek & Brian, Thanks for your useful input, I have a lot to think about. I will post SV Techs. reply, just for information. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Spain has indeed become quite 'hot' on cracking down on A Frames. Whether this is legal under EU rules is not really relevant if it is you stopped by the Guardia Civil and told that unless you disconnect then you will be relieved of a large sum of Euros, and your vehicle may be impounded. Not really the words you wish to hear if you are on holiday, especially if you have only 1 driver. Of course you can take it up with your MEP on return but that is not really the point. So, if you wish to travel with an easy heart in Spain, then use a trailer. I not seen any A Frames in the last few years, only trailers, so many have decided a peaceful life is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJP Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Dave225 - 2013-10-30 7:11 PM Spain has indeed become quite 'hot' on cracking down on A Frames. Whether this is legal under EU rules is not really relevant if it is you stopped by the Guardia Civil you wish to travel with an easy heart in Spain, then use a trailer. I not seen any A Frames in the last few years, only trailers, so many have decided a peaceful life is the way to go. You need to get out and about more whilst in Spain. On a smallish site 120 pitches near Alicante almost 10% of the motorhomes on there had toads, not only English, but French and Dutch. To mention again A Frames are NOT illegal ANYWHERE, it is the towing of one vehicle with another that is illegal, either with A frame, rope, chain or rigid pole, UNLESS you are an authorised recovery agent. Question on retrospective law if new braking regs come into force in 2014. Which bit of the setup will be affected if law is NOT applied retrospectively i.e. The towing vehicle? The towed vehicle? The A frame? If it is the towing vehicle, then if you change that you can no longer tow with your A frame? If it is the towed vehicle, change that and you can no longer tow with your A frame? If it's the A frame, keep that and tow for ever changing tow and towed vehicle at your leisure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 TOWtal clearly takes the view that, after the 2014 rule-change mplementation date, it won't be legal for them to fit an inertia-braked A-frame to a customer's vehicle. I don't see why the rule change (retrospectively-applied or otherwise) should have any effect on a towing vehicle, but I appreciate your observations about the towed car and A-frame that, together, must be considered as the 'trailer'. Assuming that the rule change does not apply retrospectively, I'd take the view that any A-frame that uses inertia-braking and that has been originally sold/fitted before the critical rule-change date can be used 'legally' and indefinitely by any owner/user of that A-frame irrespective of the towing vehicle or towed vehicle that are involved. Basically, it's the A-frame part of the 'trailer' assemblage that counts. (Presumably UK A-frame manufacturers/vendors and the UK motorcaravanning A-framing fraternity will make the effort to explore such subtleties?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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