Mel B Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Bulletguy - 2014-01-04 6:21 PM Quite frankly i cannot see any Dealer apart from a disreputable type, selling a battery "not fit for purpose" to a customer. If it powers the lighting and pump, lasts a good four years (maybe more) and hasn't broke the Bank......what more could anyone want? Err ... not always! We bought from a very reputable dealer when we got our Accent and part of the deal was to install a second leisure battery (there was already a 75 ah AGM one in) but instead of getting another matching AGM they'd fitted 2 x standard lead acid 100ah Numax LV26MF ones (2 year warranty). As I'd done my homework I knew they weren't anything like the quality of the gel they'd removed and I wasn't overly happy either that they had decided to swap the battery type without consultation, despite agreeing to put in a matching gel one! We refused to accept them so in the end they agreed to change to 2 x 100ah Numax CXV27MF ones which have a 3 year warranty, which I'd seen in their shop so knew they had them in stock. The technician went into the shop to get the replacements and stopped to talk to the shop technician about them who confirmed that what they had installed weren't anywhere near as good as the gel they'd removed and that the replacements were much better, and as good as the gel, so should really have been the ones they'd installed in the first place! We were waiting in the workshop near the door leading to the shop so heard the conversation! It means that instead of the 2 x 75 ah AGM gels giving us 150 ah of power, we've got 2 x 100ah good quality lead acid types giving us 200 ah of power! On our 47 day trip to Germany/France and 28 day trip to Ireland, for both of which we used only aires or wildcamped, we've never run out of power or had the batteries go low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Mel B - 2014-01-06 12:04 AM Err ... not always! We bought from a very reputable dealer when we got our Accent and part of the deal was to install a second leisure battery (there was already a 75 ah AGM one in) but instead of getting another matching AGM they'd fitted 2 x standard lead acid 100ah Numax LV26MF ones (2 year warranty). As I'd done my homework I knew they weren't anything like the quality of the gel they'd removed...... But you hadn't just called in to price up a leisure battery from some accessory shop. You'd just spent thirty odd grand on a Campervan with the same Dealer but apparently had noted there was an existing gel battery in so asked for one of those to be fitted. More expensive battery so i can't blame the Dealer for trying to maximise his profit by fitting a lower cost battery which, if new, would undoubtedly do the job just as well. Even so he isn't going to chance losing a thirty odd grand sale for the sake of quibbling over a few quid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Mel B - 2014-01-06 12:04 AM Bulletguy - 2014-01-04 6:21 PM Quite frankly i cannot see any Dealer apart from a disreputable type, selling a battery "not fit for purpose" to a customer. If it powers the lighting and pump, lasts a good four years (maybe more) and hasn't broke the Bank......what more could anyone want? Err ... not always! We bought from a very reputable dealer when we got our Accent and part of the deal was to install a second leisure battery (there was already a 75 ah AGM one in) but instead of getting another matching AGM they'd fitted 2 x standard lead acid 100ah Numax LV26MF ones (2 year warranty)... But just because they weren't what you asked for, doesn't then necessarily mean that they wouldn't have done the job ("fit for purpose"), does it.. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smifee Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 9 years ago I had 4 Elecsol 125Ah lead acid batteries fitted. A friend copied the installation on my van. We had a discussion on the merits of Elecsol over cheaper batteries. He fitted 4 of the cheapest 100Ah batteries he could find with a view to finding out which lasted longer. Both vans used almost identical charging systems with the Electroblock mains system, including charger, bypassed. Solar panel/s, multistage mains charger, Sterling B2b charger. All charge at over 14v. The Elecsols are still going strong but after 6 years one of the cheapies failed. The rest of the cheapies were killed a few months later when his van was destroyed by fire. So what batteries will I replace the Elecsols with? The cheapest I can find because the difference was down to maintenance. I regularly checked & topped up. He didn't. I've used over 10 litres of top up in 9 years. The replacements will not be 'sealed for life' as I believe the life would be shorter. I've never checked the engine battery. I leave that to Dave Newell on the annual service. However today I had a text message from the van telling me the engine battery was down to 10v. I've connected it to a Ctek charger on the recover mode. It would appear that the Battery Master is not working. Looks like a visit to Van Bitz to check the BM and maybe a new battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Bulletguy - 2014-01-06 1:37 AM.............More expensive battery so i can't blame the Dealer for trying to maximise his profit by fitting a lower cost battery which, if new, would undoubtedly do the job just as well. ........................ Sorry, but on the evidence, I don't agree with this sentiment. According to Mel, the dealer was asked to install a second battery to match the existing AGM (though I note she subsequently said gel! :-) However, either would be higher value items than flooded batteries for which they were swapped). So, removing the AGM and installing two standard flooded batteries, without apparently obtaining agreement to the change, seems to me not to comply with his customer's instruction. I'm assuming there was no confusion or misunderstanding over what had been instructed, on the basis that Mel seems quite clear what that was. I accept that the dealer may have understood otherwise, but he was foolish in the extreme not to have checked or explained beforehand. I'm not commenting on whether the AGM was in fact technically superior to the flooded batteries, because I don't think that is relevant. This is not about the adequacy of the batteries for the job, but about their value relative to what had been instructed. Maximising his profit is one thing, but doing so at his customer's expense is another, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-01-06 7:24 PM Sorry, but on the evidence, I don't agree with this sentiment. Maximising his profit is one thing, but doing so at his customer's expense is another, IMO. What Dealer doesn't? Those that are still in business do precisely that. That's why they are still in business. They aren't a Charity shop handing out 'freebies' or selling vans at below trade prices. They are there to profit......simple as that. Those that don't went Bankrupt and disappeared long ago. The flip side of course being those who don't give decent Customer care, after sales service, or sell junk not fit for purpose also go out of business, but i couldn't see anything in Mels post which indicated he had done anything other than fit a cheaper version of battery. As she wasn't paying for it it wasn't costing her.......it was costing the Dealer. The simple way to avoid any of this is buy private. People seem to forget when they buy from a Dealer they are not just paying for a shiny van. All the Staff, furniture, fitted carpets and potted plants have to be paid for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Well, so far as I can see, the difference in value (from Tayna) between the batteries Mel rejected, and those she accepted, is about £2 each, so maybe not that much profit at risk! :-) The rejects are about £69 each, those accepted about £71 each. Maybe I read too much into Mel's post, and all she was after was for the dealer to "give" her an extra battery. I took her to mean that she had paid for the extra battery. FWIW, an 80Ah Banner Running Bull AGM is about £170! Other brands seem to be similar, or higher, prices. So, maybe it illustrates the wisdom of making clear what is wanted, before agreeing to let someone else choose! So, it seems the two batteries fitted by the dealer could probably have been bought for less than the single battery originally fitted by the manufacturer. Quite a difference. I'm still not saying either is a better battery, just that substituting two £70 batteries for one costing at least double that, without explaining that is what would be done, doesn't seem quite right to me. Yes, of course I understand that dealers have to make profit to survive, I'm not that daft! However, Mel should have been told what the deal would involve, and then invited to decide what she wanted to do. It seems she wasn't, and I think the dealer was at least remiss for not doing so, and was actually somewhat underhand. What cost transparency? Then, the customer knows exactly where they stand and the scope for misunderstanding is minimal. Is that not also a measure of good customer service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 "I'm still not saying either is a better battery, just that substituting two £70 batteries for one costing at least double that, without explaining that is what would be done, doesn't seem quite right to me." Brian , not sure if this will influence the debate or not, but from original battery manufacturers data the reality is the Numax CXV is a Marine Starter Battery, it is not even Dual purpose It is optimised as a Starter with some Auxilliary use. I take that to mean about a 20% discharge cycle capability and most defininetly not deep cycling. Good Battery for what it is intended, wrong application. Its a Leisure Marine battery optimised for starting duties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Interesting Jon, but I think the implications of that little gem are really for Mel to mull over. She now nas a nominal 200Ah capacity, in lieu of what she originally reported as a 75Ah AGM. I assume the extra capacity will reduce the likelihood of damage due to deep discharges, so maybe she's ended up on the winning side after all - if you follow me drift! :-) My only interest was that I don't think the dealer was right to do as he did, without explaining what he proposed, because the original battery seems to have been of higher worth (£) than the two he substituted added together (despite their apparently greater nominal Ah). That's me lot! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Brambles - 2014-01-07 2:20 PM "I'm still not saying either is a better battery, just that substituting two £70 batteries for one costing at least double that, without explaining that is what would be done, doesn't seem quite right to me." Brian , not sure if this will influence the debate or not, but from original battery manufacturers data the reality is the Numax CXV is a Marine Starter Battery, it is not even Dual purpose It is optimised as a Starter with some Auxilliary use. I take that to mean about a 20% discharge cycle capability and most defininetly not deep cycling. Good Battery for what it is intended, wrong application. Its a Leisure Marine battery optimised for starting duties. So what you're really saying Jon is that Mel has exchanged a 75Ah battery with probably a usable 50% discharge giving 37.5Ah of 'REAL' capacity for 2 x 100Ah but with only 20% discharge capacity so a usable 40Ah. Sorry but not really a fair trade in my books :-( Correct me if I'm wrong but that's how I read your post. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I forgot to add they are 90Ah not 100Ah at 20C rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 So 2 x 90Ah at 20% is only 36Ah of usable capacity :-( :-( :-( Mel, Go back and ask for single (AGM or Gel) battery back, you where better off before you started!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 The Numax brand is used for batteries produced by Manbat: www.manbat.co.uk/numax/ Info on the Numax CXV range of batteries from: www.advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk They're shown on their motorhome 'suitable' batteries web-page: These batteries are designed for both starting and deep cycle battery applications. Portable Energy for Solar Panels * Caravans * Motorhomes * Motor Movers * Yachts * Boats * Narrowboats * Trolling Motors * RV's * Motor Boats * Winches Our Numax Leisure Batteries are generally intended for use with products such as TV's, video players / dvd players and a wide range of other portable and semi portable 12 volt Leisure and Marine appliances. Most of these applications require a constant flow of power. For this reason we would recommend the use of deep cycle / cyclic batteries. Deep Cycle Batteries can take hundreds of charging cycles and have a much greater service life than other types. They are very good for supplying constant levels of power over long periods of time as well as having good cranking ability. * Totally maintenance free * Completely sealed Silver Calcium Lead Acid Technology for Enhanced Safety * Up to 500 cycles * Magic Eye Charge Indicator * Heavy Duty * Comfortable and robust carrying handle * Vibration resistant casing * Anti Flash Back Safety Labyrinth (link to pic) * Low self discharge rate giving extended shelf life when not in use * Significantly enhanced cold cranking ability. * Starting capacity * Deep Cycle (can take deeper discharges during cycles) * Cyclic (can be used many times over) * Semi-Traction capable * Built in accordance to USA high specification rating The arrangement with the dealer was to supply a second matching AGM battery to the one already fitted - they did not. Had we accepted the 2 x cheaper Numax ones we would have had a lesser capacity in reality than 2 x AGM batteries so we didn't. However the better 2 x 100 amp batteries gave us more than 2 x AGMs would have so, despite them not being AGM (yes Brian ... slip of the fingers when I typed gel before! :D ), and them having a 3 years warranty (as opposed to the 2 year for the cheaper ones), we decided to accept them. It may have been a 'misunderstanding' at the dealers between the sales chap and the technician who fitted the first lot of batteries, but the sales chap was on holiday so could not be contacted as to what HAD ACTUALLY been agreed with US, so they did as we asked and put in the better ones. We could have stuck our for a second matched AGM but that would have meant another trip back to the dealer to get it fitted which we didn't want to do (and before anyone asks they would NOT have simply sent one out to us for us to fit as they were guaranteeing the installation for the second battery which they had carried out). Also, from the research I did at the time I recall that although AGM may be better (more expensive certainly), it doesn't necessarily follow that they are better than the 2 x standard lead acid ones we have which appear to probably have a better cycle rate than AGM so should last longer. Ultimately we are happy with the decision we made, we haven't run out of power at all, not even close. On our 2 extended holidays last year wild-camping/using aires, we didn't have any worry at all with the 2 batteries and our 75w solar panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Brian Kirby - 2014-01-07 5:28 PM Interesting Jon, but I think the implications of that little gem are really for Mel to mull over. She now nas a nominal 200Ah capacity, in lieu of what she originally reported as a 75Ah AGM. I assume the extra capacity will reduce the likelihood of damage due to deep discharges, so maybe she's ended up on the winning side after all - if you follow me drift! :-) My only interest was that I don't think the dealer was right to do as he did, without explaining what he proposed, because the original battery seems to have been of higher worth (£) than the two he substituted added together (despite their apparently greater nominal Ah). That's me lot! :-D Thanks Brian, that pretty much sums up what we thought at the time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Bulletguy - 2014-01-06 11:59 PM Brian Kirby - 2014-01-06 7:24 PM Sorry, but on the evidence, I don't agree with this sentiment. Maximising his profit is one thing, but doing so at his customer's expense is another, IMO. .... but i couldn't see anything in Mels post which indicated he had done anything other than fit a cheaper version of battery. As she wasn't paying for it it wasn't costing her.......it was costing the Dealer. Not totally, it was part of the DEAL we'd negotiated to fit a MATCHING AGM BATTERY, so in effect although we weren't going to be trotting into their shop and buying the battery in person, it was part of the 'cost' to us overall! :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 And a Gel will give 80% and a AGM could be anything between 60 and 80% depending on quality. So based on typical AGM lets say 70%...lets estimate 50Ah v 40Ah ..as you say not a fair trade. The GEL will give occassional 100% and the AGM occassional 80% without much ill effect so really its not looking good as the Numax wil not like deep discharges. The paste is so thin and open cell structure to provide high current for starting it will just fall off the plates when deep discharged. However the Batteries probably will continue to live on at a very much reduced capacity using the lead of the actual plate frames of the batteries with very low currrent capability. This can give impression the battery is working fine until you actually need high capacity or high current out of it ( and it will gas like mad when charging). Semi traction batteries or batteries able to cope with deep dicharges use a glass mat to hold the paste in position as it converts to lead suphate during discharges. And AGM uses a much denser glass mat which actually holds the electroyte in absorbtion as well as holding the lead in place. Gel uses Gel to hold all in place but because of the other characteristcs of gel alloys for teh plates and paste all have to be improved to take care of recombination of gasses and also prevent generation of bubbles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I am sorry Manbat do not produce batteries they sell them and import batteries and rebrand them. The information on the advanced battery web site is wrong and misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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