Guest JudgeMental Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 hughman - 2014-03-11 9:42 AM My 2013 Possl came with Michelin Agilis 225/75 16 as standard. odd....and mine registered same time as yours. Have asked dealer for an explanation...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Derek Uzzell - 2014-03-11 8:32 AM colin - 2014-03-10 11:41 AM IIRC our van has same make size and rating of tyres, but not all season. i'll have to check, but that's not likely till the weekend. p.s. 225's are an option on Maxi chassis I believe. According to Fiat's current Ducato handbook, the tyre options for "Maxi" (except-recreational) vehicles are 215/75 R16C 116/114R or 225/75 R16C 118/116R specifications. For 'recreational' equivalents, 225/75 R16CP 116/114Q is quoted. JudgeMental's 636 FR will have been built on a Citroen Jumper/Relay 35H base (3500kg maximum overall weight, axle maxima of 2100kg (front) and 2400kg (rear)) and not on the 40H 4000kg version I suggested earlier. Having looked at a Jumper/Relay brochure, it's evident that 35H and 40H Jumper/Relay models now have 225/75 R16C tyres as standard (as will their Ducato equivalents). The 2014 Possl and Globecar price-lists show a 215/75 R16C tyre-size as standard, but this datum must be incorrect. Well I stand corrected, on checking today my tyres are 215/75R16C 116/114, this is on a 2011 plate Maxi chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Driverite headquarters in Dublin got back to me and they have a full air system out in late summer..let's hope it's more competitively priced then what's around at the moment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Eddie, Another suggestion... From your earlier posting of your tyre size and the info on the Conti on-line brochure I believe you have 10 ply tyres, perhaps you could get your wife to look for confirmation in the small print on the sidewall. So, as long as your axle weights are low enough for the reduced load index, you could try to find someone with 8 ply tyres and swap wheels for a trial run. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-03-14 7:54 PM Driverite headquarters in Dublin got back to me and they have a full air system out in late summer..let's hope it's more competitively priced then what's around at the moment! I presume you have tried these: http://www.vbairsuspension.com/en/page/solutions/fullairsuspension.html Local dealers are: FitzAirAddress 79 Victoria Road Rusislip Manor HA4 9AA Middelsex Great Britain Contact personMr. J. (John) FitzTelephone07900 263457Emailjohn@fitzairfridge.com Websitehttp://www.fitzairfridge.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Hi Mike, this system very expensive..around £5.500? For full air I believe. One member has just had it fitted to his Globecar and is impressed (I would hope so at that price) they are away on a trip to Portugal so will know how he got on in a few months......most just fit a system to rear this about 3K. I'm sure I can source in States cheaper B-) below pic of glide-rite : http://www.glide-rite.com/Air_suspension_system_p/4-bag%20full%20air%20suspension.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 JudgeMental - 2014-03-15 8:20 AM Hi Mike, this system very expensive..around £5.500? For full air I believe. One member has just had it fitted to his Globecar and is impressed (I would hope so at that price) they are away on a trip to Portugal so will know how he got on in a few months......most just fit a system to rear this about 3K. I'm sure I can source in States cheaper B-) Eddie..........................That is expensive. Last year I had new raised VB (Dutch) front springs known as" Comfort" to help deal with my grounding issue which cost me £620 fitted. These softened the ride but couldn't say whether they would help with your particular issue. That price was one third cheaper than the equivalent German springs fitted by Essanjay in Poole.They also fit rear air kits costing around £500 but am doubtful whether this would help you much as my Airrides tend to stiffen the rear suspension. However, if you are unable to source air suspension economically from the USA it might be worth you discussing the issue with VB if for no other reason than to rule this option out. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 the £5500 price was for the full air VB system? The picture was the ride-rite rear system @ £3000 one + fitting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 This pro-mobil article explains the differences between current Ducato 35L, 35H and 40H chassis, and the information also applies to Citroen Jumper/Relay and Peugeot Boxer vehicles. http://www.promobil.de/ratgeber/ducato-35-l-35-h-oder-40-h-93970.html Regarding tyre sizes, it will be noted that 35L chassis have 15” wheels and 215/70 R15 tyres, while 35H (the chassis Eddie’s Possl is built on) and 40H chassis have 16” wheels and 225/75 R16 tyres. I’m going to suggest that the time has come for a reality check. An X250 panel-van is not a luxury car and its suspension system and tyres will have been designed to handle heavy-load-carrying with cossetting the people in the cab a secondary consideration. On Eddie’s Possl, axle-load maxima of 2100kg(front) and 2400kg(rear) guarantee that springing will be firm and it should be anticipated that, when lightly loaded, the ride will be ‘hoppity’ if tyre pressures are set to reflect those axle-loadings. Choosing alternative tyre profiles or an alternative ‘ply rating’ (which does not relate to the number of ‘plies’ used in a radial tyre’s construction) will be largely unproductive regarding improving the ride quality. Continental’s Technical Databook indicates that tyres are available in 225/75 R16C or 215/75 R16C sizes in 10PR or 8PR specification and (as I mentioned earlier) a tyre with a Load Index of 116 (2500kg maximum axle-loading) would cope with the 2400kg rear-axle maximum of a 35H chassis. Colin’s Globecar has 215/75 R16C 116/114 10PR tyres and this tyre specification could be fitted to the Possl’s wheels. Colin says that he uses 60psi (4.1bar approx) which equates to an axle-loading for his motorhome’s tyres of around 2050kg. If one now looks at what pressure would be suitable for a 2050kg axle loading for 225/75 R16C tyres (8PR or 10PR), it will be found that this will be from 3.75bar to 4.1bar (55psi to 60psi). It should be appreciated from this, that if Eddie weighs his motorhome fully loaded, and matches tyre inflation pressures to weighed axle loadings, there won’t be a huge difference in those pressures whether the vehicle has its current 225/75 R16C 121/120R 10PR tyres, or if 8PR 225/75 R16C tyres are fitted instead, or even if 215/75 R16C 116/114 tyre as fitted to Colin’s Globecar are used. The inflation pressures shown on the Possl’s door pillar are 4.5bar/5.0bar which, for the tyres fitted, relate to axle-loadings of 2385kg(front axle) and 2595(rear axle). If the Possl’s actual axle-loadings are well below those figures (and they are bound to be) a significant reduction in pressure can safely be made. It does need emphasising that, if a motorhome tyre has been inflated to, say, 80psi and the vehicle’s ride is harsh as a consequence, there’s no point thinking that a minor pressure reduction will result in a major improvement. Dropping from 80psi to 75psi will have no noticeable effect, dropping from 80psi to 70psi might make a noticeable difference, but (for experimentation purposes) you’d really need to drop down to, say, 50psi. Returning to Eddie’s original posting where he says that the ride of his Possl is “...agricultural compared to my 3300kg Adria”, if one looks at the vehicle’s technical specification (axle-loading maxima and tyre type) this is what one might fear would be the case. I’d do two things. Firstly, get the Possl weighed, use tyre pressures to match the weighed axle-loadings and see what effect that had. If the ride was still harsh and it was diagnosed that the problem related to the rear suspension, I’d remove the rear ‘bump stops’ to see if that improved matters. If it did, I’d fit ‘air assist’ units and run them at their minimum pressure. If, after that, the ride was still harshish, I’d live with it. (Incidentally, a Driverite 'full air' system has been available for a while for the rear suspension of the Renault Master. There's also a mention in a 2012/2013 French accessories magazine of a Driverite front-and-rear 'full air' system with a guide price of "From 8200€") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Thanks Derek, I have copied your useful weights schedule onto my phone. and once I get plates! *-) get safe and LPG fitted, I can load and visit weighbridge and adjust accordingly. There is already a big improvement just dropping to what you said initially, so im hopeful with a load on and right pressure + my air seat, I will be able to live with it....... full/half air: There is no way I can see myself paying 5-8k for a system, but I could see paying 3K depending....anyway only investigating options :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewad Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Keithl - 2014-03-08 3:51 PM Judge, Have a look at Glide-Rite air suspension systems... Link. Everyone on an American Sprinter forum raves about them as far better than VB or any other. We've got Dunlop from Marcle but if you want true Semi-Air the Glide-Rite seems to be the way to go. Keith. Hi keith , have you got a link for that thread on forum would be interested to read it as looking to get air and this company is close to me Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Hi Malcolm we have had Dunlop Air suspension, bought from Marcle in Poole, and fitted by Adams Morley (Fiat Commercial Agent) in Portsmouth. made a lot of difference to our ride and cornering, adjustable as well with an air pump 12v, usefull when in the heat of Spain, and when we have more weight in van. PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Wad... link was on Keith's post above, press link? :D Don't get confused guys this post about expensive FULL air not air assist. Lots if previous threads on topic...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewad Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Thanks PJay that's handy to know as when ever you find something you like, its miles away Poole is well within my work area so could pick up. My MH has the alko chassis I google and have a look, what did they charge for installation ? Message me this if you wish just it give me an idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 PJay - 2014-03-15 6:20 PM Hi Malcolm we have had Dunlop Air suspension, bought from Marcle in Poole, PJay Pauline et al, Marcle Leisure are actually based in Much Marcle and NOT Poole :-( Contact details are: Marcle Leisure.co.uk Much Marcle Herefordshire HR8 2NB Keith. Edit to add "Callers strictly by appointment only" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Thewad - 2014-03-15 5:37 PM Keithl - 2014-03-08 3:51 PM Judge, Have a look at Glide-Rite air suspension systems... Link. Everyone on an American Sprinter forum raves about them as far better than VB or any other. We've got Dunlop from Marcle but if you want true Semi-Air the Glide-Rite seems to be the way to go. Keith. Hi keith , have you got a link for that thread on forum would be interested to read it as looking to get air and this company is close to me Thanks It was the Sprinter Forum here... Link. Use the search button near the top for more Glide Rite threads. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Eddie, I totally agree with what Derek has said above. I remember well you being 'warned' when you bought your 3300 Adria NOT to get it on the 3500 chassis by your dealer as there would be a difference in the ride quality, but you chose to get this new van on that very chassis and appear to have found what he has told you to be the case. You have been given some very sensible suggestions on how to improve the ride by adjusting your tyre pressure which will cost you nothing but a bit of time, trial and error. However, if this does not solve the problem I would certainly suggest you look into fitting the Dunlop (or other make) air assistance suspension on the rear (I think you had the Dunlop version on a previous MH didn't you?). We found that this made a lot of difference on previous MHs so I could well believe that this would help a great deal with your 'problem' at a much less cost than you anticipate having to spend. Our PVC (5.99m) is on the 3500 Fiat chassis (2.3L 140bhp) and haven't found the ride a problem at all, so either you are 'more sensitive' or the longer length has an adverse effect on the ride quality - not an impossibility. Whether it will help or not I don't know but these are the tyres we have on our Fiat: Bridgestone R630 tyres: 215/70/R15C, 109/107S - Light Truck (65psi) http://www.national.co.uk/tyres/brand/bridgestone/r630/ I can't remember what we have the pressures set to but it will be the 'standard' one recommended for the Accent as we travel with around 1720 on the front and 1730 on the rear (this is from memory so may be a bit more or less than that), so nearly at the maximum loading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomag Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Hi Eddie I cannot see the problem as you know I had the 3300 chassis before and have had the one you have now for the last 16 months and have done 15000 miles run at 60 psi and think the ride is great and cannot say I have noticed any difference between the two chassis only this one a little higher as bigger wheels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Thats 4 bar Tommy I can imagine that being a lot better.....Mel they only build these vans on Maxi chassis. Like I said earlier, there are signs of improvement already and think it will be OK once I get plates and can sort things out :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Mel B - 2014-03-15 11:19 PM ...You have been given some very sensible suggestions on how to improve the ride by adjusting your tyre pressure which will cost you nothing but a bit of time, trial and error. However, if this does not solve the problem I would certainly suggest you look into fitting the Dunlop (or other make) air assistance suspension on the rear (I think you had the Dunlop version on a previous MH didn't you?). We found that this made a lot of difference on previous MHs so I could well believe that this would help a great deal with your 'problem' at a much less cost than you anticipate having to spend... There are several things Eddie might profitably do. As has been observed earlier, it would not be expected that his Possl would have Continental Vanco FourSeason tyres as standard. The vehicle is ex-hire and has covered some mileage, so there is the possibility that these tyres have been retro-fitted. If the tyres' date of manufacture (discernable from their date-code) is before and nearish to the date when the vehicle left the SEVEL factory (as shown on the vehicle's CofC) and the tyre on the spare-wheel matches the tyres on the other wheels, everything would point to the FourSeason tyres having been factory-fitted. If the tyres' date of manufacture is after the date when the vehicle left the SEVEL factory and/or the tyre on the spare-wheel differs from the other tyres, it's a fair bet that the FourSeason tyres have been retro-fitted. (Other than confirming what tyre is on the spare-wheel, this is largely academic - the tyres on Eddie's Possl are what they are and, regarding ride comfort, there's nothing to gain by replacing them.) I'm not sufficiently familiar with the panel-van "Maxi" chassis on which Eddie's Possl is built to know the specification of the 'bump stop' element of its rear suspension. This link https://www.fiatcamper.com/product/handling has a photo of a 'Ducato 'camping-car' rear suspension with a lot of air-space between the orange bump-stop and the spring below. If Eddie's Possl has a similar set-up and, when his motorhome is in its normal fully-loaded state, there is still air-space between the bump-stop and spring, choosing to replace the bump-stop with an 'air assist' product would inevitably worsen the ride quality. 'Air assist' augments a vehicle's springing (its purpose is in its name) and replacing an air-space with any augmentation device will make hard springing even harder. However, when Eddie's Possl in its normal fully-loaded state, if there is no air-space between the bump-stop and spring and the bump-stop looks compressed, it can assumed that the 'bump-stop' is actually a 'spring assister'. In this instance, replacing the spring assister with an air-bellows might improve the ride quality, as the air-bellows (inflated to a low pressure) might provide less resistance than the original 'spring assister'. Essentially, the air-bellow system would be being employed to 'soften' the rear springing rather than to 'assist' it. Unless it's visually obvious that the bump-stops are not contributing to the stiffness of the rear springing (ie. there's an air-space above the spring), it may be difficult to decide how much stiffness-contribution 'spring assisters' might be making. That's why I suggested removing them experimentally if reducing tyre pressures failed to produce sufficient ride-quality improvement. (By the way, the 4.5bar/5.0bar tyre-pressure recommendations on Eddie's Possl's door pillar do match the advice in the current Ducato handbook for "Maxi"-chassis models with 'normal' 225/75 R16C tyres.) It also needs saying that, while stiffening a vehicle's soft suspension via firmer dampers/springs can result in handling improvements (though often with a serious negative impact on ride comfort), softening a vehicle's firm suspension via softer dampers/springs (eg. opting for a 'full air' system) could negatively affect the handling. If I had to choose between a SEVEL-based 6.36-metre built on a 35L or 35H chassis, I'd rather have the latter with its bigger brakes and tyres. If, after the tyre-pressures had been adjusted to conform to weighed axle-loadings, the ride quality was still a mite harsh, I'd rather have that than potentially roly-poly handling. Handling-wise, stiffness beats floppyness any day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Thewad - 2014-03-15 7:42 PM Thanks PJay that's handy to know as when ever you find something you like, its miles away Poole is well within my work area so could pick up. My MH has the alko chassis I google and have a look, what did they charge for installation ? Message me this if you wish just it give me an idea Essanjay Ltd are based at Poole and carry out motorhome Al-Ko chassis 'air assist' modifications. http://www.essanjay.co.uk/services/suspension.php A price (inclusive of fitting) of from-£1495 is quoted. I believe you own a 2007 Swift Kon-Tiki 645 so the price will vary somewhat according to which 'kit' would be required. For a firm figure you'd need to contact the company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 I wouldn't take much notice of that photo, our van which is not much different to Eddie's was up on a lift yesterday for it's first MOT, I took the chance to have a good look at the underside, it's almost touching the spring assisters, and thats with a almost empty van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Derek Uzzell - 2014-03-16 9:22 AM As has been observed earlier, it would not be expected that his Possl would have Continental Vanco FourSeason tyres as standard. The vehicle is ex-hire and has covered some mileage, so there is the possibility that these tyres have been retro-fitted. ....given the German requirement for "winter" (or all-season) tyres in Winter conditions, my guess would be that these could be fitted form scratch to a hire 'van (either by specification or substitution - and look at the original registration date), to ensure maximum convenience in not having to potentially change tyres between hires in shoulder seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Derek Uzzell - 2014-03-16 9:22 AM There are several things Eddie might profitably do. As has been observed earlier, it would not be expected that his Possl would have Continental Vanco FourSeason tyres as standard. The vehicle is ex-hire and has covered some mileage, so there is the possibility that these tyres have been retro-fitted. If the tyres' date of manufacture (discernable from their date-code) is before and nearish to the date when the vehicle left the SEVEL factory (as shown on the vehicle's CofC) and the tyre on the spare-wheel matches the tyres on the other wheels, everything would point to the FourSeason tyres having been factory-fitted. If the tyres' date of manufacture is after the date when the vehicle left the SEVEL factory and/or the tyre on the spare-wheel differs from the other tyres, it's a fair bet that the FourSeason tyres have been retro-fitted. (Other than confirming what tyre is on the spare-wheel, this is largely academic - the tyres on Eddie's Possl are what they are and, regarding ride comfort, there's nothing to gain by replacing them.) I'm not sufficiently familiar with the panel-van "Maxi" chassis on which Eddie's Possl is built to know the specification of the 'bump stop' element of its rear suspension. This link https://www.fiatcamper.com/product/handling has a photo of a 'Ducato 'camping-car' rear suspension with a lot of air-space between the orange bump-stop and the spring below. If Eddie's Possl has a similar set-up and, when his motorhome is in its normal fully-loaded state, there is still air-space between the bump-stop and spring, choosing to replace the bump-stop with an 'air assist' product would inevitably worsen the ride quality. 'Air assist' augments a vehicle's springing (its purpose is in its name) and replacing an air-space with any augmentation device will make hard springing even harder. However, when Eddie's Possl in its normal fully-loaded state, if there is no air-space between the bump-stop and spring and the bump-stop looks compressed, it can assumed that the 'bump-stop' is actually a 'spring assister'. In this instance, replacing the spring assister with an air-bellows might improve the ride quality, as the air-bellows (inflated to a low pressure) might provide less resistance than the original 'spring assister'. Essentially, the air-bellow system would be being employed to 'soften' the rear springing rather than to 'assist' it. Unless it's visually obvious that the bump-stops are not contributing to the stiffness of the rear springing (ie. there's an air-space above the spring), it may be difficult to decide how much stiffness-contribution 'spring assisters' might be making. That's why I suggested removing them experimentally if reducing tyre pressures failed to produce sufficient ride-quality improvement. (By the way, the 4.5bar/5.0bar tyre-pressure recommendations on Eddie's Possl's door pillar do match the advice in the current Ducato handbook for "Maxi"-chassis models with 'normal' 225/75 R16C tyres.) It also needs saying that, while stiffening a vehicle's soft suspension via firmer dampers/springs can result in handling improvements (though often with a serious negative impact on ride comfort), softening a vehicle's firm suspension via softer dampers/springs (eg. opting for a 'full air' system) could negatively affect the handling. If I had to choose between a SEVEL-based 6.36-metre built on a 35L or 35H chassis, I'd rather have the latter with its bigger brakes and tyres. If, after the tyre-pressures had been adjusted to conform to weighed axle-loadings, the ride quality was still a mite harsh, I'd rather have that than potentially roly-poly handling. Handling-wise, stiffness beats floppiness any day... The spare the same four season M&S tyre. Van done 10500 miles and in as new condition. I had a DEKRA report on van which came back clear..they check everything. I'm happy to keep tyres as they will give an element of safe winter driving. talking to wife re 4 days we spent in it on way back and she did not really notice anything, it was only when on home turf I really started to notice the ride. Once I match pressure to load I'm sure it will be OK. I cant stress what a difference the LTV air hawk Roho seat makes, and a lot cheaper than full air! It was first registered May 2013 and I started negotiating in December 2013 so hardly done any winter travel I would think...just a summer season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 .....according to citroen.de, these (the profile and M+S marking) are standard fit on the "heavy" (Maxi) chassis in Germany. Serienausstattung ........ 225/75/R16 Bereifung mit MS-Kennzeichnung (nur für JUMPER Heavy) It is silent on the load index, but the latest UK data (2011-12) I can find on Vanco Four Seasons 2 (various configurations of Continental Tyres seem to slip in and out of the published data) indicates that that particular tyre and size was only available in 121/120R. They are (IMO) the standard tyres. Edit to add: my previous comment on registration date was because I erroneously remembered it as March, not May. Sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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