terryW Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Hi folks can anyone help with some information or point me to a suitable source? I have a 2007 Bessacarr 460 with a Truma Ultrastore water heater fitted. My problem is that the electrical water heating cannot be switched off. The control panel over the door appears to work ok indicating when it is on or off in manual mode but the heater continues to run. If I switch the panel off its still runs. If I disconnect the panel completely then it will stop. This indicates to me that the panel is at fault but before I throw lots of money at it does anyone have any other ideas. Access to a circuit diagram would be helpful, at the moment I am assuming the 240 volts is switched in via a relay in the combined fuse and control box under the bunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Hi Terry If no one comes up with an answer ( but I am sure the tech guys will) We have a swift , but ours 2006, so may be different, we have a circuit diagram copied from the Swift book, which I could get copied to you. if it is any help PJay My Oh enlarged it so he could read it, and follow the wiring through, as we have had some electric problems. PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted March 15, 2014 Author Share Posted March 15, 2014 Thanks for the offer PJay I think I have those but they don't give enough info. Service engineers probably have access to more information than these give. The control panel has a backup battery fitted so in the morning I will try removing that in case it's some form of glich that complete reprogramming will correct, but I'm not very optimistic. Thanks for the offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudders Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Hi Terry, I had three new control panels on my e460, however none were for the reasons stated, you do not mention whether this is when you are on gas or electric that this happens, ,if on site then cannot see a real problem providing the thermostat is working ok, however if my memory serves me well then there is a switch for the heater under the seat by the fuse box, if this switches heater off then not so much a problem, don't know how long you have had the van but if still under a dealer warranty ( second hand } then refer back to the dealer, regards rudders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Terry, You can download a wiring diagram for your Bessacarr from the Sargent electrical website.. Link. As you say you have an Ultrastore I'm going to guess that yours is actually a 2006 and not a 2007 as from the diagrams a 2007 should have a combination heater. If this is correct then near to your ultrastore heater should be an isolating switch to turn on/off the 230 volt operation. It will be totally independent of the control panel. Alternatively have a Google for the ultrastore operating instructions if you don't have them already. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 .....whilst it is certainly possible to fit an electric control panel to the Ultrastore of that vintage, it's only function is to switch the electrical supply on and off, and provide an indicator light that it is in use. (water temperature under electric heating is fixed). It would look similar to, and be totally separate to, the gas control panel for the Ultrastore. (i.e. if fitted you would have two control panels dedicated to the Ultrastore). Given its almost complete lack of function, it is quite often omitted, and the electrical heating function controlled simply by means of a switched, fused spur. Contemporaneous wiring diagrams and user manuals for your 'van indicate that this should indeed be the case. So, I suspect you are adjusting the gas control, which will have no effect whatsoever on the electrical supply to the Ultrastore (though it would appear that if it is disconnect, the unit fails to work in any mode). You need to search for and find the switched, fused spur (the handbook implies this is normally in the wardrobe, but could possibly be at floor level or in a cupboard), and use the switch on that to control the electric supply (and patently, it looks like it is currently switched on). I can provide Swift archive links for the wiring diagram and owners manual if you don't have them. Edited to further clarify: You will no doubt have two Truma panels, but one for the electric for the (Ultraheat) space heater, and one for the gas for Ultrastore water heater. If you had an electrical panel for the Ultrastore water heater, it would make three, and I'm pretty sure you won't have that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted March 15, 2014 Author Share Posted March 15, 2014 Thanks for your ideas. The system has worked ok for two years prior to this so I'm quite sure that this is not finger trouble on my part. Contrary to what the standard wiring diagrams shows there is no 5A switched spur fitted. The electric water heating is controlled by the electronic panel that, I presume, controls mains to the heater via a relay, a relay that I have not located. My first thought was that this relay had failed in the closed position but the fact that the power to the heater is disconnected when I remove the electronic control panel appears to contradict this theory. The more I think about it the more I am convinced that I need to replace the control panel so if anyone knows of anyone that repairs or sells replacements for this type of panel I would be pleased to hear. Failing that my cheaper option will be to fit a a mains switch but only as a last resort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 ....right. From your description it would appear you may have the Nordeletronnica control panel and fuse board (NE183/NE184) which is the 2007 M/Y fit. Possibly worthwhile giving these people a buzz to see if they can suggest something: http://www.apuljackengineering.co.uk/services.htm They do repairs on Nordelettronica kit (and I seem to think there is another company around that do the same). Edited to add: http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/nordelettronica.php (reference to Stellings for Swift Group) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted March 16, 2014 Author Share Posted March 16, 2014 Many thanks Robinhood I will give them a call on Monday otherwise I think a switched spur will be the cheapest solution as I have never used the automatic function on the control panal. I would say this panel is the most over specified bit of kit I have seen for a long time. I have been away from the forum for some time while moving and refurbishing a property and it has been great to return and find the forum members as helpful as ever. Many thanks folks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 The Nordelletronica kit is widely flagged across the various forums for being "unreliable", with symptoms very similar to those you describe. (In fact, in searching today I can find posts describing problems with the space heater failing to work). Swift only used them for a short time due to the problems (and I believe they went into receivership - but were reincarnated later). I believe from searching that you are correct in thinking that the supply is relay-controlled, but this relay could be anywhere (though my bet would be somewhere inside/behind fuse panel), and given the history of failure of these units, I wouldn't be convinced that it was simply a relay fault. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 :$ I'm not sure who's the bigger fool me or Swift. After chasing a non existent fault for three days it transpires that the electronic control panel in my van only controls the Ultrastore in gas mode, this is something that is not clear in the handbook. The only document making this clear is a document called "Swiftgroup Technical Reference number TR-0010 July 2007". Ok you may well ask what does control the 240V operation of the ultrastore in the Bessacarr E460, well to be precise very little. The only way of switching it off when 240 V is connected to the van is to use the trip in the main consumer unit which also provides power to the Ultraheat system. What this means is that when the water system is drained down for the winter you cannot use the heating to drive any damp out of the van without putting power on the heating element in the empty water tank. The handbook shows a 5A switched spur fitted to the 400 series but my 2007 460 certainly does not have a switch of any description. Ok, that's something I can rectify for the future. However I am still amazed that a van can be produced without the facility to switch off the water heater without having to switch other equipment off. Having a 5A water heater running in France on 6 A is asking for trouble. Now that's sorted I would like to not only thank members of the Forum for their contribution but to sing the praise of Paul at Apuljackengineering who was not only very helpful over the phone but followed up with schematics and information enabling me to confirm that my electronics were working correctly and then with the Technical Note referred to above. I have certainly bookmarked his web page should I have need in the future. http://www.apuljackengineering.co.uk/services.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawki Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I have the same heater in my van but I have an on/off switch in the wardrobe, surely your van should have a similar switch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 Nothing fitted at all. But I will be fitting one soon and inside the wardrobe looks to be the easiest place. >:-) >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted March 21, 2014 Author Share Posted March 21, 2014 Electricity bill should be down in future, I've been heating 10L of water for the last two months 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 terryW - 2014-03-20 7:45 PM Nothing fitted at all. But I will be fitting one soon and inside the wardrobe looks to be the easiest place. >:-) >:-) Are you certain that there is no On/Off switch to control the Ultrastore boiler's 240V operation? The Swift motorhome handbooks that cover the period when your Bessacarr motorhome should have been built all include the following Ultrastore-related advice "Electrical Operating Instructions Switch the electric supply on at the fuse spur marked Water Heater, normally in the wardrobe." I don't know if you've owned your motorhome from new but, if you trace the mains power-supply cable from the Ultrastore boiler back to the mains consumer-unit and there's no sign of an On/Off switch in the cable-run, either no switch was installed when the motorhome was built in 2007 or (if you bought the vehicle secondhand) a switch may have been removed by a previous owner. As you rightly observe, providing no independent means of controlling 240V-operation of the Ultrastore boiler would be a hare-brained thing for any motorhome manufacturer to do deliberately. (I guess the mains consumer-unit might have a circuit-breaker dedicated to the Ultrastore boiler and this could then be used to control the boiler's 240V operation. However, it would be an unusual ploy and there would need to be advice about it in the motorhome's handbook.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terryW Posted March 21, 2014 Author Share Posted March 21, 2014 Certainly nothing fitted nor any sign of anything having been removed. The cable is 3 core sheathed in blue and I've traced it all the way to the circuit-breaker where it is joined by the cable from the Ultraheat preventing the Ultrastore from being isolated on its own. It appears the switched spur was overlooked on this one. I wonder if it's a one-off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Although Swift Group motorhome handbooks for the period during which your motorhome was built all refer to a separate On/Off switch being provided to control an Ultrastore boiler's 240V operation, I note that the 2007-publication-date handbook, when Nordelettronica equipment (rather than Sargent equipment) is being described, says "Depending upon model, switches on the front of the consumer unit can be used to switch off 230v supplies to the charger, or, space heater, water heater and charger. Care is needed if a Truma Ultrastore water heater is fitted. If a 230v supply is introduced to the water heater when that water heater is empty, there is a possibility that the 230v element within the appliance will overheat and the water heater will go into a failsafe mode. The 230v supply to the Ultrastore will then need to be switched off, and the element be allowed to cool, before the Ultrastore will function again. We recommend that the switch marked water heater is left in the off position unless water is present in the water heater." There's a (poor quality) photo of a Nordelettronica MCU-S consumer unit with 3 switches on its front and one of these might be dedicated to the water boiler. Conversely, a 2nd photo - this time of a MCU-07 - shows just a single On/Off switch (labelled "Battery Charger") on the consumer unit's front. The above is largely academic really, as - if any other equipment (eg. the Ultraheat heater) is connected at the consumer unit to the 240V power-supply for the water boiler - there will always be a potential operating conflict unless each equipment has its own On/Off switch. It's bad luck that the lack of a boiler On/Off switch has taken 7 years to be discovered, though I suppose it would only show up if one wanted to do as you mentioned earlier and operate the Ultraheat heater without operating the boiler on 240V simultaneously. As the Ultraheat heater has its own operating switch, it's clearly possible to operate the Ultrastore boiler on 240V without operating the Ultraheat system at the same time. Might be worth you asking about this on Swift Talk as it's quite likely not a one-off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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