arjxh56 Posted May 2, 2014 Author Share Posted May 2, 2014 Thanks guys.. I didn't mean conflicting info just on here, I have read many other sites/posts and there appears to be a mix of those that said to leave the engine to battery earth on permenantly Vs those that say to remove it once tested. I will leave it on for a while and see if I get a recurrence of my issues. If I get the problem back I know it's not earth related? If nothing occurs for a while I'm just not sure how long to leave it? It was about 800 miles between issues over the last 2 weeks so maybe 1000 miles may be a good test? If I remove the lead from the battery and put it on the chassis next to the battery, where the battery first connects to the body.. Would that be a safer option than leaving it attached to the battery? Or is it the fact that there is another earth to the engine block in general that needs removing (putting it back to the original configuration of gearbox to chassis only)? It was occurring to me last night that it was particularly wet at points between when it failed the first and second time. I was wondering if water spray from the road, or rain getting in from the windscreen scuttle etc that may have played a part? What do you think? Should I wrap parts of the engine wiring and connections in plastic as a precaution? I appreciate all of your help. Hope I can return the favour some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 No, the lead to battery should be removed and not connected anywhere else. Water getting into a connector is very much a possiblility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjxh56 Posted May 5, 2014 Author Share Posted May 5, 2014 400 miles since the last occurrence .. No further faults but only driven in dry weather so far. Ill keep you posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjxh56 Posted May 6, 2014 Author Share Posted May 6, 2014 Now booked into Northern Commercials on thursday for diagnostics. I will let you know what they find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Be interesting to see what faut codes are logged. Good luck with it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pampam Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Glad to hear you got it all sorted ,you certainly got plenty of good advice off the forum wish id been a forum member when our comfortmatic konked lol pp:) (turned grey overnight ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjxh56 Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share Posted May 7, 2014 Pampam - 2014-05-07 5:42 AM Glad to hear you got it all sorted ,you certainly got plenty of good advice off the forum wish id been a forum member when our comfortmatic konked lol pp:) (turned grey overnight ) Its not sorted unfortunately, booked in for diagnostics tomorrow see if the fault can be found this time round. I agree the advice on here is fantastic, i would have been lost without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjxh56 Posted May 8, 2014 Author Share Posted May 8, 2014 Latest update.... Diagnostic check at NC today showed the error logged from when i had the recurrence of the gearbox failure light. It showed the same sensor fault as last time but this time it cleared when the technician reset everything. I was reassured the sensor was checked last time and it wasn't the cause but something else has caused this fault code to appear. If it was me, i would be tempted to swap the sensor but they are sure its fine. The gearbox was re calibrated and there were no obvious faults for the technician to see, he could not re create the gearbox failure during the 1hr slot i had booked? BUT he did mention the Alternator again.... As i described before, the engine on start up increases revs up to about 1100 rpm and then drops back and remains on idle permenantly. He says this is a charging issue and that the alternate needs changing to stop it revving up initially. The Alternator is showing 14.2v output at the battery, but he did connect another 'machine' and say that it was showing a charging fault and that it needs to be rectified via a new alternator? The other really interesting thing he saw was.... at the time the gearbox failure light came on the voltage was recorded as 11.5v in the memory. This is really strange because the battery had been on mains overnight, showing over 13v on the panel in the morning. We then drove for 2hrs with the alternator presumable charging as normal. I then stopped in the services and turned the panel on and the panel showed over 13v on both Cab and Hab batteries... I then left the van for a sarny and coffee break returning to start it up to carry on which is when the fault occurred. An hour later and after another hour of faffing around trying to clear the fault, the AA man checked everything before declaring it wasn't fixable and the battery was still showing over 12.7v and passed his load test?? Where did the 11.5v come from?? The battery was also checked today by NC, who actually changed the battery less than 2 weeks ago, and they said it was perfectly fine but said the alternator is causing a charging fault (despite the output still showing 14.2v when the engine is running?) I am confused?! Does this make sense to any of you guys? I did see the charging error message on the machine and i cannot recall what message it said, although I would remember it should someone repeat it! I am trying to think what could have pulled the voltage down that much at the time the failure occurred but its lost me. The technician was also stumped at this one? I was also told that the small black wire that attaches to the alternator is the comms wire and during start up the ECU checks the signals to and from the alternator using this wire. I was told that if during start up the ECU detects an error in the charge circuit it may throw up errors such as the gearbox failure light? There are no guarentees the alternator fault has anything to do with the gearbox fault but they say it needs taking out of the equation anyway. I have owned 2x Ducato 3.0 engines and both did the revving up and settling... My friend has the same van and his revs the same.. his previous van also revved the same.. Thats 4 different 3.0 ducato vehicles, all doing the same, but none of the other vehicles have had any issues or were ever flagged as being at fault? I have also done 9k miles with the revving always being present and had no issues until now. I did ask the service centre when it was in for service about it and they also said "they all do it, just ignore it" Has anyone had this revving up at start up and had to change the alternator? Did it resolve it? NC agreed that the next step, after the alternator is changed, is to drive it and use it until such time the fault re occurs with the gearbox.. i am just going to be on edge everywhere i go, parking only where i think a flat bed will be able to get in for recovery! Its sooooo frustrating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Could the 11.5v reading have been during cranking? If so it would be a sure fire sign of either a faulty earth somewhere between battery and starter OR on the live side of the 12v. The ECU will measure the voltage within its own circuitry so, say a faulty earth, would cause a low voltage at the ECU and hence your fault code and transmission fault. The low voltage would only need to be for a fraction of a second for the ECU to flag the fault so almost impossible to trace without proper diagnostic equipment! I doubt very much if you would see it with a digital multimeter as the change would be far too fast. I think you need to get a very fast recording voltage meter or oscilloscope connected to the ECU supply to trace the fault further. I would suggest a minimum sampling rate of 10 samples per second but ideally 100. You should be able to pick up the ECU voltage at the diagnostic socket as it has a supply for running diagnostic readers. PS Have a look at this website for the sort of scope I am talking about... Link to Pico. HTH, Keith. PPS OR it could be a faulty connection at the ECU as has been suggested earlier! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Keithl - 2014-05-08 7:22 PM PS Have a look at this website for the sort of scope I am talking about... Link to Pico. Did you have to? Luckily they are quite expensive so it was relatively easy to resist another fix for my tool acquisition habit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Yes Muswell, I'd love one too but unfortunately outside my budget as well :-( I do use equipment like this at work so know it's uses and limitations but unfortunately can't afford my own. Although there could be a market to offer a service... Now that's got me thinking :D Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 I only have one 3.0 van on site at present and it just happens to be my comfort-matic. It started immediately and went straight to normal idle speed with no surge at all. I have my doubts that there is anything wrong with the alternator on your vehicle; I still think this is a wiring problem but in your position I would say something like this to them; " You are the experts regarding this vehicle. You have the training and continuing support of Fiat to call upon. If it is your considered opinion that the alternator should be replaced in order to cure this problem and to stop the surge in revs when the engine is started I will agree to pay for this on the understanding that should it not solve one or both of the issues that we have, I will expect you to replace the new alternator with my old one or to not have to pay for the incorrect diagnosis or repair". To me; this is the price of being an expert. Why should a customer who has put his faith in you have to pay for your mistakes? The expert can write off the labour internally as 'training'. You should not be paying for their people to learn how to do their job. As I said before; once the earth strap is sorted out, the next logical step is to examine the wiring loom in the area below and around the nearside headlamp. There are many small wires in a tightly packed bundle. One or more may be weakened and not passing the correct signals, there may be a short. It's where these problems hide on X250 vehicles. It happens a lot. Fiat know this and so do the dealers. A long time ago I said it won't be the ECU or the control unit, that you don't need to remove the gearbox to change the control unit and that it would be the earth or a wiring fault. I am not the guy that says 'I told you so' but get the wiring checked. While you are at it; GET THE WIRING CHECKED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 Sound advice indeed - my only suggestion is that the excellent wording cited should be put in writing - not an email - but a good old fashioned snail mail letter sent via the post office so that it has to be signed for. And then ring or call in a few days later to discuss what they intend to do. If they say they have not received it - then send it via email - basically make sure you have a clear and demonstrable audit trail as to exactly what is going to happen if what they suggest does not work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 euroserv - 2014-05-09 10:34 AM As I said before; once the earth strap is sorted out, the next logical step is to examine the wiring loom in the area below and around the nearside headlamp. There are many small wires in a tightly packed bundle. One or more may be weakened and not passing the correct signals, there may be a short. It's where these problems hide on X250 vehicles. It happens a lot. This is probably a good point at which to show again my picture of just such a wiring fault in that exact location, from the earlier 'That X2/50 Earth Strap Again' thread. This gave similar spurious faults to the OP's (though nothing to do with Comfortmatic) and in a period of dry weather we happily covered 700+ miles fully believing that a new earth strap had fixed the problem, until the next damp, cold spell brought the fault back. If you don't fancy DIY cutting into the wiring looms yourself then find a specialist auto-electrician who can load test each individual wire. I believe that the good ones have special 'clips' to attach to all of the vaious plugs on the looms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjxh56 Posted May 9, 2014 Author Share Posted May 9, 2014 Northern Commercials assure me that they have checked the wiring and also load tested the loom (whatever that means) that was all part of the 10hrs labour I had to pay for last time. Fiat wouldn't cover the cost of diagnostics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted May 9, 2014 Share Posted May 9, 2014 So they say. Do you trust them? I have my doubts regarding their competence so far. The whole "Got to remove the gearbox to remove the control unit" thing would have had me in stitches if it were not so pitifully stupid. Unless you want to spend months running around chasing your own tail you need to find someone independent that is good with electrics to go through the loom and make sure. We work on these vehicles all day; every day. It's what we would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjxh56 Posted May 9, 2014 Author Share Posted May 9, 2014 Just had a call from Fiat to say they will cover the Alternator cost. I am now waiting for the part to arrive. I also had a call from NC to say they will let me know when i can go for the fitting, likely to be next Tuesday. They also mentioned they don't think they will be able to fit it in the allocated time? Its really good news that Fiat are still helping out and being efficient too. I am impressed with the after care from them so far. I just hope this resolves the revving and the charging issue that NC say it will.. Fingers crossed. Once this is resolved there will hopefully be zero faults listed in the memory and so if/when the gearbox fails again the focus can be on finding the fault without distractions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pampam Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 Phew good luck (yet again ) arjkx hope they sort it good job you werent away at moment with all the rain weve had pp:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjxh56 Posted May 15, 2014 Author Share Posted May 15, 2014 Update..... So the new alternator is on and NC are happy. Im not so happy yet, I am a little confused! If you recall right back when i first went in, the garage said that my alternator voltage was not enough at 13.9v (idle speed) so i needed a new one. This view has changed dramatically and I'm not sure what is correct.... On the previous alternator the voltage was around 13.9 at idle and up to about 14.2 revved, but it did go up and down...With the new alternator the voltage being produced is now between 12.2v and 12.9v. (depending on the load). They told me it was due to the fully charged battery not needing any more voltage so i flattened it to under 12v (around 11.9 once settled down) Despite this, the alternator voltage still doesn't go any higher at idle or at 200rpm. NC tell me that the engine ECU is smart and knows how much the battery needs and thats all it must need. I am just a little worried that things are now worse than they were before and that i will end up with flat leisure / cab batteries due to lack of charge??? I did ask 3 different engineers at NC and all of them said the alternator was now working correctly. Are they correct and is this normal? Should i just chill out and stop worrying?? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted May 15, 2014 Share Posted May 15, 2014 The engine ECU is indeed smart but it cannot alter the output voltage of the alternator. If the alternator voltage regulator is working correctly it will be supplying between 14.2 and 14.4V at idle ; with or without headlights switched on etc. I am at a loss as to what these people are talking about. They may be measuring the output at the alternator or through the ECU port and finding the correct voltage but you are measuring it somewhere else. If it is between the positive terminal and the earth point in the engine compartment I can see no reason why you should be getting a different reading to theirs. If they are getting less than 14v, something is wrong. I would use it, test it and see if the other problems have gone away before worrying about this. Does it still rev up after starting, or has this issue disappeared as they said it would? That was one of their reasons for changing the alternator, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjxh56 Posted May 15, 2014 Author Share Posted May 15, 2014 I was with them when they checked the alternator voltage. They used a machine connected to the battery and also measured it using the OBD connection and a laptop. The laptop showed 12.3v and they said this was a fault with the laptop and windows 98 so the reading was wrong. They then used the other machine which was connected to the battery, this one checked the charging circuit etc.. This was reading up to 12.9v when revved, It also checked the diode or something like that? It did confirm there was no fault on the charging circuit, which the guy said had been coming up with the old alternator. I then got my little volt meter out and put it between the + and - on the battery and it was reading the same, roughly 12.9v ... Considerably less than the last alternator and considerably less than the 14+ volts that you mention. I am told its a like for like swap of alternator (140A) but this one doesn't have any labels or stickers so i cannot see any model numbers etc... It looks smaller than the old one, (to me), but they said it was a like for like swap. Is there any way of me telling if its up to the job and is definitely the 140A? Would the wrong one result in lower voltage readings?? I havent checked the revving up and down, it was already running when i left the garage, I will pop outside in a few minutes and try it. I got distracted with the voltage readings!! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjxh56 Posted May 15, 2014 Author Share Posted May 15, 2014 Just been out to check the revving up... to give them credit, It didn't do it, although the engine is still almost operating temperature. I will try again in the morning when the engine has cooled as this is when it used to do it every time without fail. It may be the NC guys were correct about the alternator causing the engine to rev up, this would be one less problem for me to worry about :-) I will also put some load on the battery overnight so that in the morning i would expect the alternator to have to do some hard work to pull the charge back up.. I will see if it then pushes 14+ volts and this should confirm whether NC are correct about the output dropping down to a much lower voltage when the battery is at a healthy charge state? After that i will follow NC instruction to use the van until it fails again with gearbox errors, and then take it back for the error codes to be looked into and next steps agreed. They have also said to test the water ingress theory by hosing down the cab and steam cleaning the engine bay to see if water ingress causes the fault to occur. I will wait a week or so before doing that as i would like to enjoy the van this weekend whilst its running! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arjxh56 Posted May 16, 2014 Author Share Posted May 16, 2014 I got up eagerly this morning and tried the van. It started first time and did not rev up, it just sat at 800rpm. It looks like NC were right about the alternator causing the revs to increase. I also checked the alternator voltage after a night of power drain on the battery and it was showing 13.9v. This also appears to correlate with what NC said about the alternator voltage changing with the requirements of the battery? I will use the van this weekend and see what happens... :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 Although this makes little sense to me; it looks encouraging for you. Nothing would make me happier than to be wrong. Make a note to yourself that the dealer was told to replace the alternator by Fiat and would have been paid for using an original equipment part. If they have fitted an aftermarket one they may have saved a couple of hundred pounds but Fiat will not be happy about that. If you have to speak to Fiat again, it is something that you should tell them about. If everything works now and the problems are gone; no foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted May 16, 2014 Share Posted May 16, 2014 i'm with you Nick, have posted earlier about this, but lets hope all is good for him :-) just as an aside Nick, today i fitted another earth strap (from the chassis earth to another screw on the gearbox cover) the question is mine already has 2 earths from the chassis, 1 to the gearbox and a braided 1 about 7cm long to the (i think) bulkhead whats holding the suspension? cant do any harm can it? *-) Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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