Autosleeper, Autocruise, Autotrail

[stevec]

Is there a pecking order for these? One better than the other? They all seem to use the same construction.

Can someone tell me what the structure of these GRP bodies is? Do they just replace the aluminium in the sidewalls with GRP? So timber is still involved in the construction.

[Brock]

All three have had their ups and downs.

 

Autocruise only convert panel vans now as part of the Swift Group. Auto Trail's reputation has traditionally been good but recently there have been complaints on build quality. Auto Sleepers had build quality issues when they had some management issues some years ago. All three used wood in their coachbuilts; Auto Sleeper and Auto Trail still do.

 

If you are thinking of buying a second hand van from one of these manufacturers, it would be useful to know approximately what age and model. There is a good chance of finding a suitable and trouble free motorhome from these manufacturers and an outside chance of a pig in a poke. If buying new, all three have decent UK spec panel van conversions. On coachbuilts, I would put Auto Sleeper ahead.

 

Auto Sleepers did build monocoque motorhomes which had excellent reputations.

 

Like a growing number of motorhomers, I wouldn't buy British because of bad experiences in the past and the availability of some better built and designed vans from the Continental mainland.

 

Overall, a lot of the comments are subjective even when based on personal experience, sometimes based on third party reports and sometimes prejudiced. Even those above! There is no equivalent to the build quality surveys for cars.

 

I notice you didn't mention Swift.

[stevec]

I didn't mention Swift as I thought it had the same reputation as Elddis. We had looked at a 2008 Suntor 530LP but it had a low payload (220kg). As it was priced about the same as the Elddis 115 I assumed it to be of the same quality (i.e. low).

 

We 've been to look at a 2003 Autocruise Starfire. The Auto-Sleeper Nuevo 2003/4/5 would also fit our budget but we've not seen any yet. Having looked at Elddis 115s recently we thought we would not have any bodywork issues with the (hopefully) higher build quality of the above title. We would have to accept an older model with these but we don't have the budget to have exactly what we want.

 

We have recently seen an ad for an Ace Capri 2008 which is a more modern chassis but know nothing of Ace or where it sits in the quality spectrum.

 

Edit- Just read that Ace is part of the Swift group and that the Capri is similar to the 530LP so presumably at the low end of the build quality scale. And also has similar low payload.

[Guest JudgeMental]

You can't tell payload by looking at spec...you have to weigh them! Or at least make a weighbridge ticket part of the contract

 

Being UK centric makes no sense whatsoever..better European vans available and better value as well

[Brock]

The Suntor is a dealer special edition and so will have a higher spec but build quality is unlikely to be different to the standard version. Generally, the Swift low end models and the Elldis competed in the same market. The Ace range was Swift's way of competing with cheap Italian imports. The Ace is probably best left alone although given its age, it may have had any damp problems properly fixed.

 

You are quite right about the lack of load margin although in those days, load margins didn't have the higher profile they do now.

 

The Starfire and Nuevo are two nice vans for two people who want a small coachbuilt. Nuevo's are still being built. If that is the size you want, then don't rule out panel vans conversions; for example the Auto Sleeper Duetto.

 

My gut feel is the Nuevo may be a better second hand choice now although back in the early noughties, I doubt there was much between them. You are wise in wanting to stick to a budget - you may need a grand to cover any unfortunate expenses in the first year. I'd worry less about the age for the right layout and condition.

[kelly58]

Our 1st motorhome was a Compass Suntor 115 new in Dec 2006 on the x250 Peugeot a good entry level motorhome , basic and adequate but not well insulated . We then had a 2008 Ace Airstream 680FB from the Swift Stables not the best built motorhome we have owned !! . Next was a 2010 Autosleeper Nuevo II EK a very nice well built motorhome only sold because high mileage we attained in 2 years. Our current motorhome is a 2013 Autotrail Tracker RS which we rate quality wise the same as the Autosleeper. There are a lot of UK built motorhome knockers on the forum , if what you buy fits the bill that's all that matters , we like the idea of a full oven / grill which a lot of European motorhomes do not have that's why we see a lot of foreign motorhomers cooking outside on a BBQ or Cadac Grill.One thing that is possible is a factory visit to Autotrail in Grimsby where you can see the building of a motorhome and what go's into it.

[Caddies104]

Hi

Depends which model of each you are looking at. We have a 14 year old Auto Sleeper Symphony and a 1 year old Autotrail Apache. Both serve a special service, love them both, the Autotrail for touring long term and the Auto Sleeper for quick getaways. The UK vans IMO are better layouts for what we want. eg kitchen with a cooker and a grill that you can reach, lounge, etc

 

 

[lennyhb]

There is no way I would spend my hard earned cash on a British built van. On a limited budget I would rather buy an older German built van, even those aren't necessarily faultless but at least the odds are stacked in your favor.

 

Bear in mind a British van a few years old will not be fully winterised it will probably have underslung tanks and the insulation will be poorer.

 

Also if buying in the UK dealers like their fat profit margins, much better to buy privately, OK you take a gamble but the money you save should cover any ongoing costs.

 

Take a look at mobile.de it will give you some idea what is available in Germany.

 

If you want to avoid timber in the wall construction you need to be looking at Hymer, Carthago and more upmarket German vans.

[johnnerontheroad]

lennyhb - 2014-04-18 7:50 PM

 

There is no way I would spend my hard earned cash on a British built van. On a limited budget I would rather buy an older German built van, even those aren't necessarily faultless but at least the odds are stacked in your favor.

 

Bear in mind a British van a few years old will not be fully winterised it will probably have underslung tanks and the insulation will be poorer.

 

Also if buying in the UK dealers like their fat profit margins, much better to buy privately, OK you take a gamble but the money you save should cover any ongoing costs.

 

Take a look at mobile.de it will give you some idea what is available in Germany.

 

If you want to avoid timber in the wall construction you need to be looking at Hymer, Carthago and more upmarket German vans.

 

Couldn't of put it better myself. Just to add if you do deiced to buy a British van also buy a damp meter.

 

Good luck

 

Dave

[rupert123]

Just ignore the anti anything British brigade, they tend to live in the dim and distant past. Sure British vans get more complaints in the UK but as over 80% of vans sold in the UK are British built this is to be expected. We had a 2008 Swift 530LP bought from new, it had a payload of 530kg, Swift uprated this van early 2008. SV tech uprated it to 3500kg giving a payload of 730kg so could carry a 125cc scooter on a rack no problem. This van gave excellent service for just over four years with no issues at all except we had the fridge burners soot up after three years. When we sold we got an excellent price on Ebay for the van within a few days. Euro vans can be good but most are poorly equipped with bad resale values and are very hard to sell in the UK if LHD, dealer backup is bad to non existent You can of course save a few pounds, as has been said, if you buy in Europe but do you want the hassle and the savings are nothing like they used to be, you will also lose money on an import especially if it is lhd so cancel out any savings made.

[globebuster]

As I have said repeatedly - I have nothing against ANY decently built van, country of origin is immaterial -

 

However, only a couple of weeks ago I flagged up on this forum 4 or 5 vans available at a dealer, they were all from the Swift Group, and all had varying degrees of rot around the rear floor area. Of those that I checked not one was without an issue.

 

Current Swift builds would not appear to be any better, judging by what I observed at the NEC last October.

There are one or two continental manufacturers, who seem to have taken a backward step too.

 

Ultimately it's your decision Steve, but whatever you decide give any prospective purchase a thorough going over.

Don't assume a clear habitation check gives any vehicle a clean bill of health.

[Steve928]

Globebuster - I should probably ask this on the other thread but here goes anyway.

 

Did you go to this dealer and examine their entire used stock and conclude that the 4 or 5 vans that had problems were Swifts?

 

Or did you go to this dealer and search out the Swifts/British vans and check only them for problems?

 

Genuine question.

[globebuster]

I'm guessing you've looked at my other thread? - No Steve, I wasn't on an intentional mission!

 

So at the risk of sounding like a complete lunatic.......

I had half an hour to while away, and this dealer happened to be en-route.

 

OK, I primarily aimed my efforts toward the Swift built ones, solely the basis of previous observations.

 

Every van [in succession] without fail had a problem - there were a couple of Elddis budget vans going the same way too.

 

And no, I am of sound mind and not exaggerating :-) In fact if the weather had been less favourable I wouldn't have bothered, as it was, my trousers were looking a bit grubby afterwards.

[LordThornber]

Hi Steve, we bought a new swift pvc in 2000, excellent, well put together. One grouse, the upholstery sagged but it was a quick fix.

 

Resale value was very impressive after 3 years, over 80 % and I'm not kidding.

 

We then bought an Autosleeper Nuevo new in 2003. Build quality, superb, not without a couple of bits and bobs that needed minor attention though but in 11 years that's not unreasonable.

 

Here's the rub though, we've just sold it on ebay with a 66% take on the purchase price.

 

Yes that's correct 66%.

 

Resale values are very important to us 8-)

 

Martyn

[Guest pelmetman]

LordThornber - 2014-04-21 7:34 AM

 

Here's the rub though, we've just sold it on ebay with a 66% take on the purchase price.

 

Yes that's correct 66%.

 

Resale values are very important to us 8-)

 

Martyn

 

Just to clarify Martyn ;-)...........When you say "take".... do you mean you got 66% of the purchase...... or lost 66%? :-S...............

[LordThornber]

Hi Dave, sorry it wasn't very clear really, we sold it for 66% of the purchase price.

 

In essence, a 3% depreciation per annum.

 

Martyn

[Guest JudgeMental]

LordThornber - 2014-04-21 7:34 AM

 

Resale values are very important to us 8-)

 

Martyn

 

And to us! I have always made advantageous deals selling or PX'ing our LHD vans......have been called a liar on here before when I quoted previous figures.....so won't be making that mistake again! enough to say I think it's nuts relying on UK market, where the vans below par with many overweight and old tech..hilarious to be honest, most can't see further then the ends if their nose ;-)

[grahamw]

lennyhb - 2014-04-18 7:50 PM

If you want to avoid timber in the wall construction you need to be looking at Hymer, Carthago and more upmarket German vans.

 

Having been on a recent factory visit to Autotrail at Grimsby I can verify that the amount of timber still used in the construction to me is a concern. The timber is used as a joining method at roof, wall and floor abutments, the very places where damp penetration is likely. Bearing in mind the natural movement of timber I would regard such a construction as flawed. If damp penetrates the situation is exacerbated further by the expansion of the wet wood and severe breaching of the joint. Other more suitable materials are available for this purpose and Autotrail simply need to move on. It's a pity really because Autotrail vans are very well built but using yesterdays technology.

[rolandrat]

johnnerontheroad - 2014-04-18 8:07 PM

 

lennyhb - 2014-04-18 7:50 PM

 

There is no way I would spend my hard earned cash on a British built van. On a limited budget I would rather buy an older German built van, even those aren't necessarily faultless but at least the odds are stacked in your favor.

 

Bear in mind a British van a few years old will not be fully winterised it will probably have underslung tanks and the insulation will be poorer.

 

Also if buying in the UK dealers like their fat profit margins, much better to buy privately, OK you take a gamble but the money you save should cover any ongoing costs.

 

Take a look at mobile.de it will give you some idea what is available in Germany.

 

If you want to avoid timber in the wall construction you need to be looking at Hymer, Carthago and more upmarket German vans.

 

Couldn't of put it better myself. Just to add if you do deiced to buy a British van also buy a damp meter.

 

Good luck

 

Dave

 

Spot on, couldn't agree more.

[tonyg3nwl]

Speaking from personal experience, I have previously owned an 05 Autocruise Starfire and was happy with it , and after 3 years changed to Autosleeper Inca in anticipation that 4 berth would be better used than 2, but grandchildren didnt,. Inca had initial troubles with hairline cracks in gelcoat on stress points on roof, eventually resolved by return to factory and having to bypass dealer to get issue resolved. Got there in the end, but wont go to same dealer again..delership has since changed hands.

Both vans were new at purchase so no damp issues during our ownership.

eventually went over to Autocruise Stargazer via Warminster dealer, new again, 12 months use and water leak via offside window, resolved by dealership no hassle. Bottom of door decay, bubbling up also fixed under warranty, no hassle.

a short period of ill health prompted sale to local we buy your motorhome dealer..priceoffered reluctantly accepted.

short period 12 months on tugger system, then fell for what appeared to be very clean 05 plate Autocruise Starfire,..convinced by salesman that stain by gasbox was insignificant and purchased it..within 6 months just in warranty, discovered rot along offside rear of gasbox back to wheel arch. Hassle and threats with dealership, eventually had repairs carried out as "act of goodwill".

Not being happy with end result, have just got rid and gone back to 09 plater Stargazer. Initial inspection showed 50 percent damp along nearside and across rear end. Dealership said they would repair this prior tosale, and it went to workshop at Tewkesbury, where it was stripped out, dried out, replaced where necessary, and came back "good as new"

 

underside inspection reveals new undersealing and damp testing shows all previous problem now 10percent or less. Dealer claims repairs have cost 6000, do I beleive it..???

 

Deal agreed, tradein price for repaired starfire agreed and we now have Stargazer on Fiat 09 plate and very empty coffers. Health issues in control so have ferry booked and plans made.

 

The whole recent episode makes me wonder why dealer was offering van with known damp and not fixing it prior to offering for sale..hoping to catch the unsuspecting customer?.. be warned, dont buy without thorough damp investigations..dont trust the dealer..do your own checks

[stevec]

Thanks to all for your replies. As a newcomer to this forum (and motorhomes in general) I can see that there are a great many opinions (to be expected in any public forum I suppose). As first time purchasers we are making cerrtain assumptions about what we want in a motorhome, and what we don't want. For instance we don't want a fixed bed and we would like a cooker. It seems that having these as tick boxes for continental vans may restrict the choices from them. We also think we want a decent shower area and the Autocruise has one larger than most. A length of under 6 metres is also a requirement. Not because of driving experience but because we do not physically have storage space for anything longer. And so our choices get narrowed down. We shall be comparing our choices at Peterborough assuming there are any on site. There is one just like we want in a local village. I'm temped to go knock on their door and ask them their experiences!!

 

As regards faults, I'm sure that if I 'googled' "Hymer faults" or "Burstner faults" then I would find posts about problems with those. I drive a VW car. Other people will say they're no good and I should have a Mercedes. All personal choices. But I have learned that I need to be responsible for any checks before purchase, possibly even if buying from a dealer. And certainly if buying private. Reading these forums has certainly been an eye opener. I'm sure a lot of purchasers aren't quite as enquiring beforehand.

[Brian Kirby]

Steve, it is all about probabilities, not certainties. Looking back through the above posts one thing strikes me. It is that those who are saying British built vans are no worse then the imports have generally only kept them for 3 - 4 years. No van, wherever made, should show the slightest sign of leakage within that timescale. Not much of a recommendation, IMO. Contrast that with Tony's experiences of older UK built vans, and draw your own conclusions.

 

Continental made vans, particularly German, but also some French (Rapido and Pilote group products, and with some reservations, Trigano group vans) and one Italian (Liaka, there other well made Italian vans, but not generally represented on UK market), sell in the UK at a premium simply because they have earned a reputation for generally good build quality.

 

It grieves me to say it, and no make is totally devoid of faulty vehicles, but your best assurance of a trouble free van is to buy an import from one of the well reputed makes. Both Autosleeper and Autotrail are, as said above, about the best currently made in UK. Autocruise have a loyal following who praise the quality, on the proviso that what you get pre-dates Swift's acquisition of the marque. Be aware that there was, and is, no Swift support for vans produced before their take-over.

 

Many RHD continental built vans will have some kind of cooker because the importing dealerships have asked the manufacturers to incorporate them for the UK market. Having said that, many such result in heavily compromised kitchen blocks in consequence. But, not all are so afflicted.

 

The layout you describe is typically British, and is well suited to the UK climate and eating habits. Hence its popularity. You will be hard pressed to find what you want in a continental made van so, with the possible exception of Burstner, who I think make/made a few models specifically to UK tastes, the others probably won't suit. Arguments about the cost benefits of importing are therefore somewhat irrelevant. What I would say, as someone who is on their third imported van, is that Rupert123's assertions regarding price differentials are wholly inaccurate.

 

He hasn't done this, I (and a few others, for example Lenny and Judgemental) have, and speak from personal experience. Compared to UK dealer prices the cost of motorhomes, particularly imported from German dealers, is substantially lower. The resale value in UK of LHD vans is correspondingly lower, but not disproportionately so compared to the saving made on initial purchase. What you buy for less tends to sell for less. Why should it be otherwise? What you get, however, is either more van for your money, or the same van for less money. It is a choice, and it will not suit everyone, but it is a way to make a rather expensive hobby a little less expensive. It goes without saying that the practical advantage is when using the van outside the UK. For UK use, overall, RHD makes better sense.

[LordThornber]

As I said, resale values are important to us.

 

We're not concerned in the slightest with a b or c regarding a van, z is what counts, z being the end of the game.

 

If you're buying your van from Bognor, Belgium or Botswana and achieving (or beating indeed), the depreciation levels we've experienced AND resale values are important to you too, then congratulations.

 

If it's all about price to swap, lhd or rhd, dealership experience, or any combination etc etc then good for you.

 

Martyn

[bolero boy]

Just to throw in a wild card suggestion for a MH that fits your requirements.....have a look at the Pilote G600LA. A class, drop down (non fixed) bed, good lounge, brit kitchen with full cooker, huge washroom and shower, double floor, fully winterised, approx £53+ Oh, and 5.99m long.

A really neat little van.

[globebuster]

You'll also note in Tony's reply that in fact, whilst Autocruise seem to have a good reputation, he has experienced issues with the brand in both original and Swift guise.

He is a brave man to have purchased something that has clearly suffered ingress, on the basis that the dealer has now done some remedial work - let's hope that has resolved the problem.

 

To be honest Steve, you need to be getting more involved in making some decisions now - in many cases the response to your numerous questions will be purely opinion, rather than useful factual observations like Tony's

 

Just google any of the above names and drill down a bit - don't rely on opinions, better still search this and other motorhome forums.

 

Your assumption that if you searched Burstner, etc would throw up the same issues - is I'm afraid just that - an assumption! - and I think reaffirms my belief that you are not actually prepared to really do any 'homework' on the subject.

 

All coach-built vans have the potential to suffer ingress problems, its just that many succumb prematurely - due to poor design, inferior materials and sub-standard assembly techniques. The fact that the vast majority of those in question are British built, is unfortunate to say the least.