Derek Uzzell Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 rolandrat - 2015-01-26 5:42 PM The Merc and VW Crafter are going to be fitted with a Telma truck style electromagnetic brake retarder which looks like a first for light commercial vehicles... A ‘brake retarder’ has been a Mercedes Sprinter option for at least 10 years. I don’t know if the retarder has always been a Telma one, but the following 2010-dated files refer http://www.hwag.com/media/archive1/Telma-Retarder/Produktinfo_Telma_MB_Sprinter.pdf http://www.hwag.com/media/archive1/Telma-Retarder/Produktinfo_Telma_VW_Crafter.pdf Besides the cost, for motorhomes there’s the brake retarder’s extra weight to consider, with the lightest Telma unit weighing around 58kg. This 2007 forum discussion may be of interest http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Exhaust-braking-as-in-braking-using-the-exhaust-/8234/?posts=19 Returning to Roger’s request for information about the Ducato X290 speed-limiter cruise-control add-on, apparently this is part of all 2015-model Auto-Trail motorhomes’ standard specification. I’m not sure if any member of this forum currently has a 2015 Auto-Trail, but it’s quite likely that someone on another motorhome forum will have. Although the X290 handbook describes pretty well what the speed-limiter feature does (and how to operate it) it does not go into the fine detail needed to decide how easy/effective it will be to use in practice and whether or not the speed-limit selected can be displayed in mph or just km/h. The ability to swap the “Distance” unit of measurement between “km" and “mi” is mentioned in the handbook, but it’s not explained whether this will affect the speed-limiter feature; nor is there any indication how the speed set by using the speed-limiter is displayed to the driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I must be missing something, I have cruise control that effectively acts as a speed limiter doesn't it, albeit with a bit of braking sometimes required if going downhill, as for Sprinters having it they must always have it switched off, or set at 90 mph. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 The Ducato X290’s speed-limiter option does not replace its cruise-control feature, it’s an add-on that can be operated independently of cruise-control. The driver sets a maximum speed (say 110km/h) using the speed-limiter control-stalk and then activates the speed-limiter function. The vehicle can then be driven perfectly normally until a speed of 110km/h is attained. At this point the vehicle’s speed will be held at 110km/h by the speed-limiter, though the driver is able to override this by ‘kicking down’ the accelerator pedal. The Ducato X290 Rapido motorhome I have on order will have cruise-control, but I don’t anticipate using it a great deal. I don’t know if it wil have the speed-limiter function (though I strongly suspect not as Rapido seem keen on penny-pinching), but even if it had I’m sure I would not use it. The presence or lack of either feature would have no effect on my choice of motorhome, but if I were offered the choice of having cruise-control (cheaply) I’d probably opt for it, and if I had the option of saving £50 by not having the speed-limiter feature I’d choose to deselect it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Tracker - 2015-01-25 5:22 PM StuartO - 2015-01-25 5:14 PM Tracker - 2015-01-25 4:35 PM ....What other matters need your concentration may I ask?.... If you do some advanced driving training you'd start to find out! :-D I did, and whilst it is true that I learnt a lot I have never had a problem maintaining awareness of my speed as well as my concentration and what others around me are doing thanks. Forty five years and half a million miles without an accident and even the last one in 1971 we were hit by an out of control idiot driver so I have never lost my NCD. but thanks for the tip as I know you care and mean well and I also know that I do not know it all and never will and so I continue to learn. (lol) Keep your hair on Tracker, you did ask the question! (My mother died age 92 without ever having an accident in her life - and she never had any driving lessons and nor did she have have a driving licence, or for that matter a car. Perhaps that's the best way of all to claim to have a flawless driving record. ;-) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Derek Uzzell - 2015-01-27 9:43 AM The Ducato X290’s speed-limiter option does not replace its cruise-control feature, it’s an add-on that can be operated independently of cruise-control. The driver sets a maximum speed (say 110km/h) using the speed-limiter control-stalk and then activates the speed-limiter function. The vehicle can then be driven perfectly normally until a speed of 110km/h is attained. At this point the vehicle’s speed will be held at 110km/h by the speed-limiter, though the driver is able to override this by ‘kicking down’ the accelerator pedal. The Ducato X290 Rapido motorhome I have on order will have cruise-control, but I don’t anticipate using it a great deal. I don’t know if it wil have the speed-limiter function (though I strongly suspect not as Rapido seem keen on penny-pinching), but even if it had I’m sure I would not use it. The presence or lack of either feature would have no effect on my choice of motorhome, but if I were offered the choice of having cruise-control (cheaply) I’d probably opt for it, and if I had the option of saving £50 by not having the speed-limiter feature I’d choose to deselect it. Not sure where your idea of Rapido penny pinching comes from, unless they are now following UK manufacturers.................................duck. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 I know i am a bit late here but i thought i would provide a definitive answer for you. The Euro 4 Ducato X250 has a driver selectable speed reminder; once set it will beep at you incessantly if you exceed the speed that you set. This is probably enough for most people and the same system is fitted to Euro 5 X250's and X290's as standard. The Euro 4 could also have a speed limiter at specific speeds only (approx 56 or 62 mph) but once this is done by the dealer it is not reversable. It is permanently 'burned' into the ECU so I would not advise this. The Euro 5 vehicles(X250 and X290) can have a speed limiter set by the dealer than can be changed or removed later on. The speed ranges are 90, 110, and 130kmh. We have all of our long term vans set to 130kmh so that the drivers stay out of the worst kind of trouble. The inaccuracies of the speedometers mean that the driver sees about 83mph (which makes him feel like he is going very fast) but in reality he is doing about 74mph so he is barely breaking the national speed limit. It seems to work well with no complaints. But then again what driver would admit that they have been trying to do over 83mph? Just to clarify; the option to set a speed limit (via the dealer) is not dependent on having cruise control as an option; it's a standard function of the ECU. Hope that is clear enough.... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Nick The type of ‘driver controllable’ speed limiter that Roger has on his Mercedes vehicle and that is offered as an optional add-on to cruise-control on Ducato X290s operates as I described in my posting of 27 January 2015 9:43 AM. Its functionality is described on Page 57 of the (downloadable) X290 Owner Handbook as follows: "SPEED LIMITER This device allows the speed of the car to be limited to values which can be set by the driver. The maximum speed can be set both with vehicle stationary and in motion. The minimum speed that can be set is 30 km/h. When the device is active, the car’s speed depends on the pressure at the accelerator pedal, until the programmed speed limit is reached (see "Speed limit programming” paragraph). If necessary (in the event of overtaking for example), the set speed limit can be exceeded by fully depressing the accelerator pedal. By gradually reducing the pressure on the accelerator pedal, the function will be reactivated as soon as the car speed drops below the set speed.” What you have referred to is called “Speed Block” in the X290 Owner Handbook and is covered on Page 70. The 4 predefined speeds of 90kmh, 100kmh, 110kmh or 110kmh are (as you rightly say) set via a Fiat dealership and cannot be overridden by the vehicle’s driver. This is not the same as the X290’s “Speed Llimiter” option. Similar features are available for the latest Ford Transit Mk 8, but these are referred to in the Owner’s Manual as “Vehicle Speed Limiter - Fixed” (equivalent to Fiat’s “Speed Block) and “Vehicle Speed Limiter - Adjustable” (equivalent to Fiat’s “Speed Limiter”). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 So even more complication, or over egging the pudding. (!) No wonder no one seems to be able to fix these things anymore when they go belly up. Having driven coaches with them it was the most infuriating device known to man...............and in my view at times downright dangerous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 Joe90 - 2015-01-27 3:02 PM Not sure where your idea of Rapido penny pinching comes from, unless they are now following UK manufacturers.................................duck. ;-) Rapido - like many Continental motorcaravan manufacturers - markets its products with prices based on a minimalist specification that it anticipates buyers will beef up. For example (quoting from a 2014 UK price list) the advertised on-the-road price of a Rapido 640 was £48,000. But the vehicle’s specification omits a passenger air-bag, cruise-control, height-adjustable cab seats, electric mirrors and a radio. Now, for £249 more, a buyer can have all those things, plus a kitchen extractor-hood and a Truma Duo-Control changeover device, but it’s nevertheless plain that Rapido has made the basic price seem more attractive by omitting things that most people would consider essential. Rapido also omits ESP (which Fiat trumpeted as being standard on Ducato X290s) and, if a buyer wants this, the extra cost will be £460. This also obtains Traction+ whether the buyer wants it or not. I’m not going to claim that Rapido is the only motorhome converter to do this, but the company’s pricing policy is certainly not a generous one and, if it turns out that ‘my’ Rapido comes with the Speed Limiter option - rather than just simple cruise-control - I shall be very surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogher Posted January 27, 2015 Author Share Posted January 27, 2015 Joe90 - 2015-01-27 9:02 AM I must be missing something, I have cruise control that effectively acts as a speed limiter doesn't it, albeit with a bit of braking sometimes required if going downhill, as for Sprinters having it they must always have it switched off, or set at 90 mph. :-S Yes, you are missing something, Joe90. Cruise control keeps your speed constant. A limiter stops you going too fast. A speed limiter has always been an add-on to cruise control in the vehicles I’ve had. Rather than cause the vehicle to maintain a constant speed (as cruise control does) the speed limiter requires the driver to control the speed via the accelerator. The limiter only controls your top speed. Thus it’s very useful in built-up areas as you can drive normally without watching your speed or having to remember whether it’s a 30 or 40mph zone. It just requires the discipline to reset it as the limit changes, hence my interest in the method of operation. Some are better than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Potentially, a Ducato X290 has three speed-limit-related functions. 1: “SPEED BLOCK” This restricts the vehicle’s maximum speed to 90km/h, 100km/h, 110km/h or 130km/h. It is activated/deactivated by a Fiat dealer and cannot be altered by the vehicle’s driver. (When I began driving in the 1960s, this type of limiter was generally known as a ‘governor’ and driving a lorry so-equipped was an odd experience for the novice.) 2: “SPEED BEEP” The driver can set a speed between 30km/h and 200 km/h (or between 20mph and 125mph). If the preset speed is exceeded the driver will immediately be alerted audibly. (As altering the speed-setting is fiddly, it would probably be impracticable to use this function if one wanted to change the speed-setting regularly.) 3: “SPEED LIMITER” This is an extension of the cruise-control feature and allows the driver to set a maximum speed greater than 30km/h. The vehicle can be driven normally until the preset speed is attained. The preset speed can be overridden via the accelerator-pedal. The X290 Owner Handbook’s description of SPEED LIMITER suggests that it would be straightforward and quick to select/alter the required speed-limit and to activate/deactivate the function. Selecting/altering the speed-limit involves moving the control-stalk upwards to increase the speed-limit or downwards to decrease it. Each individual movement of the stalk corresponds to an increase in the speed-limit of about 1 km/h, while holding the stalk in its upwards (or downwards) position increases the speed-limit in 5km/h increments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogher Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 A nice summary, Derek. When I first experienced the variable limiter, I wrote to the manufacturer suggesting that, rather than step just one unit at a time, it could jump ten units if held for a moment. I think they adopted five as a compromise (but have not been back to that brand). I suggested ten because speed limits are usually in multiples of ten, so you don’t need the intermediate positions very often. I'd like to know the logic for choosing five rather than ten, I don’t think it would be from user feedback. I also suggested convenient switching between kph and mph (just like easier beam switching for the headlights). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 No I don't think I am missing something, I can set my cruise control to any speed limit that I find myself in, it's not quantum physics to keep your foot of the gas, thereby going over the limit, or hitting the resume button after braking.........the speed limiter that I had experience of in Coaches was an absolute TOP speed that the driver had no control over, not bits and bobs in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 rogher - 2015-01-27 8:24 PM ... Rather than cause the vehicle to maintain a constant speed (as cruise control does) the speed limiter requires the driver to control the speed via the accelerator. The limiter only controls your top speed. Thus it’s very useful in built-up areas as you can drive normally without watching your speed or having to remember whether it’s a 30 or 40mph zone. It just requires the discipline to reset it as the limit changes... ..the above does raise the obvious question; "What is the point?" (...especially, as it can just be overridden by "flooring" the throttle anyway)... :-S Surely, rather than faffin' about scrolling up/down/through any dash display menus/modes etc, the "discipline" needed to "reset" it, would be better spent just sticking to the correct speed(s) in the first place? It just seems like the backroom design boys have stumbled across something that they can make their kit do, and their marketing boys have then sold us a "need" for it.. What is it they say?.."..if it isn't broke yet, then it obviously doesn't have enough features.." :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 It does not often happen Pepe but - nicely put - I absolutely agree and I like that idea as a 21st century proverb! "..if it isn't broke yet, then it obviously doesn't have enough features.." From Wiki - A proverb (from Latin: proverbium) is a simple and concrete saying, popularly known and repeated, that expresses a truth based on common sense or the practical experience of humanity. Q E D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 While challenging the merit of fitting vehicles with driver-programmable speed limiters may be entertaining, it ignores Roger’s original inquiry. This type of 'driver aid’ is not that rare. Ford, Citroen, Peugeot, Renault and Mercedes fit it to some of their cars and vans and Fiat now offers it on certain X290 Ducatos. Unlike cruise-control the feature is essentially harmless as the vehicle’s speed is controlled by the driver until the preset limit is reached and - even when the preset speed is attained - the driver is still able to go faster easily if he/she so chooses. I’ve no interest in owning a vehicle with this feature. However, if the feature were provided as standard (as is the case with 2015 Auto-Trail motorhomes) that would not force me to exploit it. The Rapido motorhome I’ve ordered will have cruise-control and the “Speed Beep” feature, but I shall not be obliged to make use of either if I don’t want to. As I don’t envisage me benefiting from the Speed Limiter function, I don’t care whether the Rapido will have it or not. Roger, on the other hand, is accustomed to driving vehicles having a driver-programmable speed limiter (and cruise-control) and values the speed limiter feature. Prior to the X290 this type of speed limiter was not offered on Ducato. If Roger considered it to be a deal-breaking must-have, this would have seriously constrained his choices when it came to replacing his present motorhome. He is now aware that the X290 Ducato can have this feature and knows what the X290 Owner Handbook says about it. However, that’s not the same as getting feedback from someone who has a X290 Ducato with Speed Limiter and who can answer any questions that still remain after the Handbook has been studied. The only forum-member I’m aware of who will be getting a X290 Ducato-based (Auto-Trail) motorhome that should have the Speed Limiter feature is AlanS, but the projected delivery date is in March. Hands-on Speed Limiter advice before then might well be available from a motorhome forum with a larger population (or possibly from the Fiat Forum). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 Tracker - 2015-01-28 2:04 PM It does not often happen Pepe but - nicely put - I absolutely agree... 8-) !? NOOOooooooooo!!..... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogher Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 I never realised the value of a speed limiter until I had one and, since then, I’ve grown to use it almost every trip. A limiter helps me to remain within the law and also avoid the speed traps that some counties seem to be riddled with. It’s easier for me to set the limit when I see a sign than keep an eye on the speedo. I also don’t have to rely on my memory, which is becoming a handicap. I’ve had cruise control for even longer than a speed limiter but have only used it occasionally to remind myself how it works. I find cruise control to be inappropriate for use on most of the roads that I travel in the UK, but do find greater use on continental motorways. Until you’ve had chance to try the type of limiter that I refer to, you may well find it difficult to appreciate the benefits. Good point about the Fiat forums, Derek, although I think I’ve obtained what I needed from here. You have understood my position well. There are very few lightweight Merc choices around and, although I much prefer that base, one of my alternative options is on a Fiat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Joe90 Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 When the technology catches up with places like the A5 around Cannock in the midlands, where one minute it's 30, then 50, then 40 ad infinitum, and then on variable speed limit zones on motorways, when the technology is such that in all places the vehicles variable speed limiter is programmed to automatically adjust the vehicles speed to the prevailing limit I may sign up in the meantime I'll carry on doing what I've always done, and that's concentrate on the roads, and their speed limits, and the time I cannot do both together with keeping an eye on my speedo is the day I'll hand in my licence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muswell Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I like cruise control when a motorway is sufficiently quiet, why not save the tension in your right ankle? I have often thought how useful it would be to have an audible warning, especially driving in places where there is enough to concentrate on anyway. I used to do one journey in London where there were 7 speed cameras in a 40 minute journey on a busy road with a 40 limit. I knew the location of all the cameras but even so it only needs a bit of concentration on something else and you can be up to 45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogher Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 Well, I’m not prepared to hand in my licence yet, Joe, I’d rather make use of a limiter. I’ve been caught speeding a couple of times and want to avoid a repeat if at all possible. It would seem that many other drivers don’t pay so much attention to their speedo, judging by the number that pass me or tag along intimidatingly close. Don’t forget that blokes are supposed to be unable to multitask, so I prefer to watch the road. A5 = Staffordshire = Speed cameras by the score. I think Audi have a system (not cheap) that links traffic sign recognition to a speed limiter, so an automatic aid may not be too far away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geeco Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I have just taken delivery of a 2015 AT Tracker FB with 150 engine & AMT. Have travelled just over 500klms since pickup heading south from Sydney down th East Coast about 50% on cruise control. The AT is fitted with the speed limiter/cc option. The cc works fine except that the Luton tends to reduce the light to the speedo and I am struggling to determine what exact speed I have locked in. My car shows the speed I have set with a digital readout, pity the Fiat does not have the same feature. I am yet to test the speed limiter but I must confess to not being a fan as resetting the speed for the constant speed limit changes on oz roads is a pain. On a general note I am so far very impressed with the driving ease of the Fiat and the back end is extremely easy to live with for us first time users. Cheers Gary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 The latest Ducato handbook is uninformative about exactly what shows on the dashboard display when the Speed Limiter function is selected. However, the display information will probably follow the principles used with other Fiat vehicles having this feature. The (downloadable) handbook for the latest Fiat 500L indicates that this car can have a ‘standard’ multifunction dashboard display screen or a ’reconfigurable’ alternative. In both cases a digital readout is given of the speed limit that has been set, plus an indication of whether Speed Limiter is On or Off. The format differs for each screen-type and the reconfigurable screen’s Speed Limiter readout appears to be the clearest. The handbook's examples of the screen displays show distances in kilometres and the Speed Limiter setting in km/h. It’s mentioned that the measurement-unit for distances can be either km/h or mph, but there’s no indication (anywhere in the handbook) that the Speed Limiter measurement-unit can be altered from km/h. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundowner Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I've got a 2009 X250 with no cruise control but with what the handbook calls a speed limiter, which in reality is a programmable speed warning bleeper. This can only be set while the vehicle is stationary so is not really much use. However I do have a satnav which automatically warns me what the speed limit is at all times - simple! I have in the past driven many hundreds of thousands of miles in vehicles fitted with cruise control, which is very useful for distance work on lightly trafficked motorways, but it is possible to approach situations faster than you would without the cruise control. I find my right foot backs off more automatically than any cruise control! I think with the sort of driving I now do - mainly no pressure touring, mainly off motorways whenever practical, of the two I would prefer the flexibility of the variable speed limiter. Horses for courses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogher Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 My SatNav ‘beeps’ at me when I exceed the limit, but only briefly at that moment. It ought to get more aggressive if I continue to exceed the limit but, instead, it considers that it’s done its job and just remains quiet. Glad you appreciate the virtues of a variable limiter, Sundowner. I agree with others that it’s a bit of a fag to keep adjusting the setting for the ever-changing limits on country roads, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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