Steve928 Posted April 3, 2015 Author Share Posted April 3, 2015 I know for a fact that those destined for Bailey and Autotrail are assembled at Southam. Here are a few lo-res images from a recent visit there. 1. shows the cabs awaiting their rear ends, 2. the production line and 3. complete units on their way to AT. And look what we see in the lower right corner of picture 4.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 See the second picture, red highlift jack on right. See the ramps which fold up for safety in front of the tyre...well if you move the vehicle forward agianst them, Handbrake on, lower the vehicle and the ramps hit the ground, lift and press hard into the tyre as that end drops level --- guess what damage they do if you are unlucky -- what you have on your tyres. Look carefully at the damage and you will see it is the walls of the tread which are damaged. Its not the kind of damage you get on brake rollers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted April 3, 2015 Author Share Posted April 3, 2015 I'm very wary about disagreeing with you Brambles as your tyre knowledge and experience is clear from the other thread a few days ago, but with the benefit of having the tyre in front of me it's clear that friction has generated enough heat to melt the compound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Steve928 - 2015-04-03 3:58 PM I'm very wary about disagreeing with you Brambles as your tyre knowledge and experience is clear from the other thread a few days ago, but with the benefit of having the tyre in front of me it's clear that friction has generated enough heat to melt the compound. So held tight up against a rough 'bar' on a transporter and bounced and jostled for well over a thousand miles from Sevel in Italy to Southam in the UK! Keith. PS I can see the number one pastime at Peterborough is going to be looking at front tyres on new Sevel based MH :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Steve928 - 2015-04-03 3:58 PM I'm very wary about disagreeing with you Brambles as your tyre knowledge and experience is clear from the other thread a few days ago, but with the benefit of having the tyre in front of me it's clear that friction has generated enough heat to melt the compound. Sorry my post comes across a bit 'definite' like, i should have toned it down to be more like a suggestion -- please feel free to disagree although I am very confident this could be the cause but equally happy if proved wrong. I have never seen rolling roads or brake rollers inflict that kind of damage with scores going down top the base of the tread and is usually just the top surface and top corners of the tread blocks. Even the small sipes have the narrow inside walls are damaged and that to me can only be a thin surface really pressing into the tyre as it slides over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Keithl - 2015-04-03 4:34 PM Steve928 - 2015-04-03 3:58 PM I'm very wary about disagreeing with you Brambles as your tyre knowledge and experience is clear from the other thread a few days ago, but with the benefit of having the tyre in front of me it's clear that friction has generated enough heat to melt the compound. So held tight up against a rough 'bar' on a transporter and bounced and jostled for well over a thousand miles from Sevel in Italy to Southam in the UK! Keith. PS I can see the number one pastime at Peterborough is going to be looking at front tyres on new Sevel based MH :D Hi Keith, My view on this idea of rubbing on a bar would cause damage to both leading and trailing edges and not deep down into the sipes and on one edge only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Brambles - 2015-04-03 2:45 PM See the second picture, red highlift jack on right. See the ramps which fold up for safety in front of the tyre...well if you move the vehicle forward agianst them, Handbrake on, lower the vehicle and the ramps hit the ground, lift and press hard into the tyre as that end drops level --- guess what damage they do if you are unlucky -- what you have on your tyres. Look carefully at the damage and you will see it is the walls of the tread which are damaged. Its not the kind of damage you get on brake rollers. That seems the most plausible theory so far Jon. Very good, and well spotted! The question is, could it ever be proved, and if it could, would it matter? I guess the friction could have generated sufficient heat to locally part melt completely dry and very fresh tyres, but the resultant damage looks relatively small compared to what would result from a lock-up under braking. However, I just wonder if it might be worth having the two tyres removed and inspected, preferably in the presence of a Michelin technical rep, just to be certain that there is no more than superficial damage? Possibly a call to Michelin technical to see if they would be willing to co-operate, and would co-ordinate with a local tyre fitter over where and when? Then, if the tyres are merely scuffed, but not damaged, they could be re-fitted - and everyone gains peace of mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Many years back i was involved in laying down skid marks to establish the co-efficient of friction of the site of road traffic collisions . (usually from 30mph so comparitively low speed). Examination of the tyres involved involved.never revealed any sign of melting. The considerable volume of smoke comes from the tar that has a much lower melting point than rubber and and the marks are in the tar not rubber scraped off the tyre. On concrete it difficult to find skid marks and if any they were the result of srcatching from stone embedded in the tyre rather than any sign of meltdown. Do not confuse anything seen from racing tyres as the compound are very soft with I would guess a much lower melting point than road tyres. Steve is convinced the tyre has melted over a narrow area area and I cannot imagine any way the sort of temperature required could have been generated by fretting against metal parts during transport. To my mind it would take contact with a very hot surface to leave those sort of marks. Strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted April 3, 2015 Author Share Posted April 3, 2015 You just would not believe how complicated this has become.. I'm currently working hard, very hard, unbelievably sole-destroyingly hard, to have a chassis-related problem corrected under warranty by AL-KO, hence my visit in the pictures to the AL-KO factory. The damaged/faulty tyres were discussed as possibly contributing to, or even being the sole source of, the problem (although subsequently that has been ruled-out by fitting other tyres). I stood not 10 metres from that brake tester in picture 4 with the van on the geometry machine, discussing the tyres with the man from AL-KO. I really do appreciate you inputs but I'm going to bow out now as I'm sure that you'll all agree that getting your own personal problems fixed is more important than airing your dirty laundry, but I may report back at some point.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I believe heat damage to the tread from friction would look very much different from what we have here. There has been no permanent deformatiom of the rubber but purely mechanical removal of rubber ...looking at the pictures available so far. Remember rubber is a part thermo setting polymer. Initail viewing of the puictures makes it look like rubber has deformed and caused a 'lip' but closer inspectio shows this is not the case. Peter asks if this is important. I feel it very much is. If the vehicle has not been in any workshop other than the supplying dealers or prior to the dealer supplying then surely the dealer must be responsible. He after all supplied the vehicle with faulty tyres whether he damaged then or the manufacture. He is still responsible. If it can be shown this is not road damage and has not been damaged by any workshop since the owner took ownership then then surely there is a very strong case to hold the supplying dealer accountable and he has to replace tyres. It is then up to the dealer to recover costs from his supplier. If I am correct, or indeed it is unknown, the fact teh tyres are damaged and no one knows if teh carcase has been damaged or not, then I certainly would nt ve happy driving on those tyres and would replace. If Michelin where to inspect and state they are perfectly OK then fine, but I would want a proper test done ( say by Xray) and not just an opinion. Even having a kerb pressing hard into the tread can damage and weaken a tyre let alone a plate pressing hard into the tread which is much more likely to break internal cords. You just do not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted April 3, 2015 Author Share Posted April 3, 2015 Brambles - 2015-04-03 8:10 PM Remember rubber is a part thermo setting polymer. Damn, I forgot that! Sod Michelin, I'm sending the tyres to you, what's your address? :-D Bye (again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Steve928 - 2015-04-03 8:30 PM Brambles - 2015-04-03 8:10 PM Remember rubber is a part thermo setting polymer. Damn, I forgot that! Sod Michelin, I'm sending the tyres to you, what's your address? :-D Bye (again). I meant to delete that part... was trying to look up the proper term as rubber is an elastomer and tyre rubber is a complex mixture of natural and synthetic rubbers and it vulcanises rather than sets. Chemisty and the physical properties of rubber is very complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Tell me about it. I was in the Rubber industry for years. :-> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 peter - 2015-04-03 10:02 PM Tell me about it. I was in the Rubber industry for years. :-> I still am, every time I do the dishes... now where are my marigolds. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Steve928 - 2015-04-03 7:38 PM You just would not believe how complicated this has become.. I'm currently working hard, very hard, unbelievably sole-destroyingly hard, to have a chassis-related problem corrected under warranty by AL-KO, hence my visit in the pictures to the AL-KO factory. The damaged/faulty tyres were discussed as possibly contributing to, or even being the sole source of, the problem (although subsequently that has been ruled-out by fitting other tyres). I stood not 10 metres from that brake tester in picture 4 with the van on the geometry machine, discussing the tyres with the man from AL-KO. I really do appreciate you inputs but I'm going to bow out now as I'm sure that you'll all agree that getting your own personal problems fixed is more important than airing your dirty laundry, but I may report back at some point.. Steve, I appreciate now is not the time to elaborate but once your 'Chassis-related problem' is sorted please come back and explain what the final outcome is. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Agreed. It would also be very interesting to learn in due course whether the two are in some way linked. I also agree with Jon. This is a nearly new van. All faults revealed are properly the dealer's responsibility. We haven't heard anything of his role in this to date. Is he involved? He definitely should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted April 4, 2015 Author Share Posted April 4, 2015 Will do, rest assured, but don't anyone hold their breath in the meantime. I could write a book - perhaps I will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted April 24, 2015 Author Share Posted April 24, 2015 Just a quick update. I'm being sent 2 new wheels and tyres to replace the damaged ones. As this continues to be linked to the chassis-related problem that I mentioned and isn't necessarily due to the damage to the tyres themselves we shall sadly never know for sure what caused the damage. The damaged tyres won't be subject to any examination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 Thanks for the update Steve. Good news. Please let us know more about the chassis issue in due course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted May 6, 2015 Author Share Posted May 6, 2015 The wheels arrived this evening. I was asked to confirm full details of what was required i.e. standard Bailey-fit 215/70R15CP Agilis Camping tyres on 15" steel wheels with TPMS valves etc. The picture shows what's been sent: 16" alloy wheels with 225/75 tyres...... Give me strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 I'd be well pleased with those. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 peter - 2015-05-06 9:38 PM I'd be well pleased with those. :D Steve928 - 2015-04-24 4:55 PM I'm being sent 2 new wheels and tyres... But just one pair aren't much use :-( Putting them on along with a pair of 15" would likely cause all sorts of ABS and traction problems. Best place for them would be eBay :D Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Ok I didn't realise there were only two. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 It’s also a fair bet that the 16” alloy wheels are intended for an X250/X290 ‘maxi’ chassis, so won’t fit on hubs designed to carry 15” steel wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted May 7, 2015 Author Share Posted May 7, 2015 Yes they're indeed 130mm PCD Maxi wheels, Derek. The correct wheels are being dispatched tomorrow. The Ebay route was tempting; I could have bought 2 new 15" tyres with the proceeds and had a tidy sum left over but I thought I'd best do the correct thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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