ken the kontiki Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Our 2008 Kontiki purchased in early 2014 came fitted with a SOG type B for the Thetford C200 CWE toilet cassette. I changed the filter today but whilst the hose was disconnected from the cassette, I thought I'd check the suck of the fan. Lo and behold, the fan blows towards the cassette and doesn't suck as it should. The wiring is correct from the fan - red fan wire to brown wire on the Thetford and black wire to black. According to the fitting instructions, the wires can't be swapped round as the fan motor is protected for reverse polarity. Indeed, if the wires are swapped around, the fan doesn't run. I've been trying to contact the SOG distributor, Outdoor Bits, by phone and email but no luck to date. Any ideas as to why the fan should be blowing and not sucking? I can only think that it's been like this it was first fitted by the previous owner and Lowdhams and no one bothered to check the system was working correctly back in 2011 (according to the receipts I've found). I'm thinking the fan is kaput but a new one is c.£60 >:-( . Any help or thoughts appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted September 9, 2015 Share Posted September 9, 2015 Probably too simple...unscrew it and turn it round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 As mentioned by laimeduck, the fan us been fitted back to front and needs to be turned around so it blows t'other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 Unfortunately as the fan looks like this on a SOG http://www.campervanstuff.com/shop_stuff/index.php?mod=product&id_prd=1114, it can only be fitted one way on the back of the external cassette hatch/door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Ahhh! If faulty from new then original retailer or SOG should replace despite being 4 or 5 years ago it was fitted. However 1st I would check the polarity of the supplying cables is actually correct. Brown is often ground/chassis in vehicle wiring and black is lo and behold the 12 volts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 Brambles - 2015-09-10 9:12 AM Ahhh! If faulty from new then original retailer or SOG should replace despite being 4 or 5 years ago it was fitted. However 1st I would check the polarity of the supplying cables is actually correct. Brown is often ground/chassis in vehicle wiring and black is lo and behold the 12 volts. Unfortunately (or fortunately?), the wiring to the SOG fan is correct - red +ve on SOG to brown +ve on Thetford, black -ve on SOG to blue -ve on Thetford. We've lived with this problem for 18 months now, so no great rush to sort out but it would be nice to get the SOG working properly. Just to add that we don't have unpleasant smells in the bathroom, so all's well at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 OK if it's dodgy and you are going to have to get a new one......nothing to lose.... can you take the fan apart and reverse the fan on the motor spindle? (Same effect as turning the whole thing around.) Looks as though it's a moulded unit, so you may have to carefully saw through the casing, drill out the pegs etc, then glue/tape it back together? Bit of a faff, but it might work and you'll only loose a bit of time and no money! And if it does work you'll have the sweet smell of sucess rather than the pong of failure! Sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candapack Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Never seen a SOG, but know the theory. So I am not sure how you could live with it for 18 minutes, never mind 18 months. Why not try reversing the polarity anyway, it got the USS Enterprise out of a few tricky situations in the sixties!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 laimeduck - 2015-09-10 11:49 AM OK if it's dodgy and you are going to have to get a new one......nothing to lose.... can you take the fan apart and reverse the fan on the motor spindle? (Same effect as turning the whole thing around.) Looks as though it's a moulded unit, so you may have to carefully saw through the casing, drill out the pegs etc, then glue/tape it back together? Bit of a faff, but it might work and you'll only loose a bit of time and no money! And if it does work you'll have the sweet smell of success rather than the pong of failure! Sorry! If it is a normal propeller type fan then this will not work. It will still blow in same direction. An impeller type will (looks like a cylinder with fins around outside). Maybe the wires are soldered onto the motor wrong and reversing the wring will work. I personally would try this, but I accept no responsibility if you do and it fails. However on 12volt elecronic synchronous type motors I have reversed wiring before and they just do not run with no damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 Thanks guys for the suggestions. Unfortunately, the wires can't be simply reversed as the motor is polarity protected. If the connections are swapped around, the fan won't run at all (as per SOG's data sheet/info). Next mute point is that the fan motor is encased in resin in its plastic holder so any repairs are going to prove difficult. Have finally spoken to Outdoor Bits, the UK importer, who have had correspondence in the past from SOG Germany regarding our very issue. Turns out that at manufacture, a diode in the motor could have been incorrectly fitted. So that's the good news but as our fan is well out of 2 year warranty, they won't replace it as SOG Germany won't reimburse them even though our fan has been faulty since day one. Just about to send an email to SOG Germany to see what they have to say - fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Apparently not a warranty issue then as it has been faulty sines construction therefore sale of goods act comes into play where I understand you have 6 years to address the issue. Cut/pasted from Watchdog page on Sale of Goods Act applicability: Subject to this a consumer has six years from the time they buy something in which to make a claim irrespective of how long the goods actually last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 Some good news and progress :-) . Sent an email to SOG Germany outlining our problem and got a reply within an hour. If we cover the postage to Germany, they'll inspect and test the fan and, if it is faulty, will despatch a new one and refund our initial postage. Only have the cost of postage to suffer at the moment so it's worth a punt - better than £60+ for a new fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Don't think this will hold water, Roger. From the first post it seems the OP bought the van with the SOG already fitted, although he has receipts for the original supply. Under those circumstances, he wouldn't have a contract with the supplier (he didn't buy from them), so won't have recourse to consumer legislation. Edit to say now overtaken by Paul's intervening post. Good for SOG! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 ken the kontiki - 2015-09-10 3:30 PM Some good news and progress :-) . Sent an email to SOG Germany outlining our problem and got a reply within an hour. If we cover the postage to Germany, they'll inspect and test the fan and, if it is faulty, will despatch a new one and refund our initial postage. Only have the cost of postage to suffer at the moment so it's worth a punt - better than £60+ for a new fan. Success so far then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 I wonder how many other SOG fans are out there with the same problem? Although the fan could turn out to be faulty, I blame the dealer who fitted it (Lowdhams) for not testing it all those years ago after installation. The comprehensive fitting instructions say that air leaks should be tested for in the SOG system and to ensure that the Thetford cassette seal is air tight. Someone didn't do their job then :'( . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 ken the kontiki - 2015-09-10 7:25 PM I wonder how many other SOG fans are out there with the same problem? Although the fan could turn out to be faulty, I blame the dealer who fitted it (Lowdhams) for not testing it all those years ago after installation. The comprehensive fitting instructions say that air leaks should be tested for in the SOG system and to ensure that the Thetford cassette seal is air tight. Someone didn't do their job then :'( . Totally agree, if the installer had followed the instructions then this fault would have been picked up at installation. Here is a quote from the last page of the installation instructions... "Functional test of the ventilation system - Mandatory Open the blade valve and hold a burning incense (Joss) stick or cigarette above it. If the smoke is drawn down into the holding tank the ventilation system is working correctly." http://www.outdoorbits.com/Brochures/SOGB_instructions.pdf Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candapack Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 But does this not beg the question, if you haven't noticed your SOG has been working in reverse for 18 months, is anybody's SOG making any difference whatsoever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted September 10, 2015 Author Share Posted September 10, 2015 candapack - 2015-09-10 9:00 PM But does this not beg the question, if you haven't noticed your SOG has been working in reverse for 18 months, is anybody's SOG making any difference whatsoever? Hoping to save a few £s by not using blue or similar as since October 2014, we've been away on and off for around 38 weeks. So it would be nice to get the SOG working properly just to see if it's all it's supposed to be. Every little helps I guess :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 ken the kontiki - 2015-09-10 10:35 PM candapack - 2015-09-10 9:00 PM But does this not beg the question, if you haven't noticed your SOG has been working in reverse for 18 months, is anybody's SOG making any difference whatsoever? Hoping to save a few £s by not using blue or similar as since October 2014, we've been away on and off for around 38 weeks. So it would be nice to get the SOG working properly just to see if it's all it's supposed to be. Every little helps I guess :-S Well, when you get the fan back, you will definitely gain unassailable experience of their effectiveness. Perhaps you could volunteer to become our resident forum SOG consultant? :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 candapack - 2015-09-10 9:00 PM But does this not beg the question, if you haven't noticed your SOG has been working in reverse for 18 months, is anybody's SOG making any difference whatsoever? Don't have a SOG but the Thetford version, tried it without chemicals........ never again, the whole van ponged, back to Elson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted September 11, 2015 Share Posted September 11, 2015 If it's a normal type fan blade ie rotating on a motor spindle, you can tell what direction it's supposed to turn as the blades are curved to scoop the air efficiently. When they run backwards (if brushless DC motors can be made to run backwards) they don't move as much air. Also most fan motors, when looking at the spindle should run anti-clockwise. 99% of general replacement fan motors run this way. Synchronous motors are AC motors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted September 11, 2015 Author Share Posted September 11, 2015 Charles - 2015-09-11 12:11 PM If it's a normal type fan blade ie rotating on a motor spindle, you can tell what direction it's supposed to turn as the blades are curved to scoop the air efficiently. When they run backwards (if brushless DC motors can be made to run backwards) they don't move as much air. Also most fan motors, when looking at the spindle should run anti-clockwise. 99% of general replacement fan motors run this way. Synchronous motors are AC motors. Unfortunately with the SOG fan, it' s impossible to see the fan blades in the housing. Having to spoken to several SOG "specialists", after many years of people making their own SOG kits using some genuine SOG items, SOG hiked their spares prices right up to discourage such practice. The fan can't be taken apart for repair as it's encased in resin and the fan frame is part of the 90 degree door fitting. Typical of the Germans but I can see their point. The other way to go is to fit a small computer fan to the inside of the toilet hatch to vent to atmosphere, c.£5. This is then covered with a plastic sandwich box with a hole in it to take the hose from the cassette to the fan. This is a cheap way to make a SOG (plus microswitch and bracket for the Thetford) but can't be done on many hatch doors as three's no clear space between the hatch and cassette when the hatch is closed. Damn !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken the kontiki Posted October 12, 2015 Author Share Posted October 12, 2015 Update - I sent the fan to SOG Germany at a cost of £8.00. 7 days after sending the fan, a brand new one arrived on my doorstep. no questions asked. Well done SOG Germany. Not so good "Outdoor Bits" who point blank refused to even look at the fan even though it's blatantly obvious the fan's run backwards since it was made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 candapack - 2015-09-10 9:00 PM But does this not beg the question, if you haven't noticed your SOG has been working in reverse for 18 months, is anybody's SOG making any difference whatsoever? As Keithl points out, the final step when installing a SOG system is to carry out a ‘smoke test’ to confirm that the fan-motor is drawing air through the valve in the base of the toilet-bowl. There is a reasonable air-flow when the SOG fan is running and, even though the flow through the toilet-bowl’s base-valve may not be immediately evident, the air (and very often the smell...) emerging from a cassette-locker door-mounted filter should be noticeable if the system is functioning properly. I suspect that Charles’s observation that a fan running backwards won’t move as much air as when running forwards may be particularly true with the SOG fan and how it is designed to be installed. I would have thought that, if the fan were able to suck a significant quantity of air through the external filter and blow it through the hose attaching the fan to the cassette and on to the toilet bowl, anyone sitting on the toilet would feel a uncomfortable breeze on their bum. And there’s the (unfiltered) smell, of course, that would pervade the toilet compartment. That Ken has mentioned neither of these undesirable ‘features’ suggests that little or no air reaches the toilet-bowl when a SOG fan runs backwards. As Ken’s fan has now been replaced this is perhaps academic, but it seems very odd to me that a SOG system that was apparently installed 7 years ago with a fan that ran backwards continued in that state until the present day without this fault being noticed. When I installed a SOG Type B system in my 2005 Hobby motorhome it was immediately obvious that air was being extracted through the toilet-bowl and no smoke-test was needed to confirm this. If it had not been obvious I would have known something was wrong. While I understand what’s been said about the diode-related manufacturing fault, I do wonder whether these motors can develop a problem over time that will result in reverse-running. Just because SOG Germany chose to replace Ken’s fan free of charge doesn’t necessarily mean the original fan has always run in reverse. Regarding Ray’s comments - the SOG system differs from Thetford’s in several respects and I think Thetford advises that toilet-chemicals should still be used. If your ‘pong problem’ was as bad as you say, perhaps your Thetford fan is also running backwards. Having had a SOG system in the Hobby for 9 years I miss not having one in my current Rapido 640. This is not because I want to save spending money on chemicals, but because it keeps the toilet compartment pong-free. My wife thinks simarly and, when I have a week to spare, I’ll SOG-equip the Rapido. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laimeduck Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 ken the kontiki - 2015-10-12 5:24 PM Update - I sent the fan to SOG Germany at a cost of £8.00. 7 days after sending the fan, a brand new one arrived on my doorstep. no questions asked. Well done SOG Germany. Not so good "Outdoor Bits" who point blank refused to even look at the fan even though it's blatantly obvious the fan's run backwards since it was made. The "Sweet Smell of Success"! Good result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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