johnfromnorfolk Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 I am considering visiting a German Christmas market in December but discovered that I will need winter tyres and snow chains for my motor home. Any advice would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophie2 Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Basically it depends on the weather conditions and therefore presumably where exactly you're driving. We did Christmas Markets in Germany a few years ago but conditions weren't bad. Didn't have chains or winter tyres. One option, utilised by some m/homers is to put winter tyres on and leave them for all year round use-otherwise could be expensive and inconvenient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Be a bit cautious over making assumptions on weather conditions. In 2006 we passed through Bavaria en route for Italy. It was drizzling as we crossed southern Germany towards Fussen. Overnighted near Fussen and awoke to about two feet of snow, and that was April! Conditions can change fast, and unexpectedly, especially around mountains. Both the Germans and the Austrians were caught napping, and the road into Austria was absolute chaos, and completely unpassable due to a combination of jack-knifed trucks, plus other vehicles that had just slipped to a standstill, or off the road. Made for interesting driving, until we turned back for 24hours! Under those conditions, and under the current legislation, and had the police been able to get around, we would probably have been fined for not having winter tyres. The point is, no one goes checking, but if you get stuck for want of either snowflake marked, or at minimum M+S marked, tyres, or where necessary chains (which includes being able to fit them), and so cause a traffic hold-up, you are liable to the fine. Another little thing is that it is your responsibility to clear snow from the roof of your van before driving, as damage caused to following vehicles from flying lumps of snow/ice is your liability. The Germans take a dim view of vehicles with snowbound roofs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunseekers2 Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 This falls into the 'A Frame' grey area arena. If your German and snow is falling you have to have winter tyres, if you don't and you cause an accident the book they throw at you needs a fork lift to carry it. Now in the UK you don't need to have winter tyres in wintery condition so as with 'A Frames' you can quote this. Wouldn't like to be in an accident in Germany and test it though plenty do it as with towing 'A Frames'. *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Sorry to disagree but there is no 'Grey' area with respect to winter tyres in Germany. You have to have them BY LAW! http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/winter-tyres-and-snow-chains.html http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/snow-chains-winter-tyres.html Keith. Edit to add "...including vehicles from foreign countries". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunseekers2 Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Keithl - 2015-09-12 7:16 PM Sorry to disagree but there is no 'Grey' area with respect to winter tyres in Germany. You have to have them BY LAW! http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/winter-tyres-and-snow-chains.html http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/snow-chains-winter-tyres.html Keith. Edit to add "...including vehicles from foreign countries". Interesting although from an 'English' site interesting to see what the Germans say. The 'GREY' area is THAT you don't need winter tyres here but you do over there. Rather like 'A FRAMES' and towing another story though. Maybe rules have changed for Auslanders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunseekers2 Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Keithl - 2015-09-12 7:16 PM Sorry to disagree but there is no 'Grey' area with respect to winter tyres in Germany. You have to have them BY LAW! http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/winter-tyres-and-snow-chains.html http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/snow-chains-winter-tyres.html Keith. Edit to add "...including vehicles from foreign countries". Interesting although from an 'English' site interesting to see what the Germans say. The 'GREY' area is THAT you don't need winter tyres here but you do over there. Rather like 'A FRAMES' and towing another story though. Maybe rules have changed for Auslanders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophie2 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Keithl - 2015-09-12 7:16 PM Sorry to disagree but there is no 'Grey' area with respect to winter tyres in Germany. You have to have them BY LAW! http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/safety/winter-tyres-and-snow-chains.html http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/snow-chains-winter-tyres.html Keith. Edit to add "...including vehicles from foreign countries". ONLY in Wintry conditions. which is what weve been discussing-and that makes it the Grey area because it isn't defined!! (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Sophie, The OP clearly said visiting in December so in that case winter tyres are a must. It looks like the recommendation is October to Easter but as stated not written in law... "The new German law does not set any time limits, but it does clearly state that under icy conditions (bei Glatteis, Schneeglätte, Schneematsch, Eis- und Reifglätte) you must not drive without snow tires on your vehicle. So, since it’s difficult to predict the weather, for all practical purposes, the old “von O bis O” rule still applies." http://www.german-way.com/travel-and-tourism/driving-in-europe/driving/snow-tires-winter-driving/ Keith. PS Perhaps the OP could find a Christmas market somewhere that did not require fitting winter tyres as this would make it a very expensive trip otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophie2 Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 We seem to have moved on from "Should I fit winter tyres?" to "Is the law a "grey" area? Accuse me of pedantry by all means but the law states that the (sic) tyres must be fitted in "Wintry" conditions. This is NOT the same as saying "...."winter tyres MUST be fitted" When we visited German Christmas Markets in Early December a few years ago it was very cold. There was no ice on the roads, no snow and no mud. "Wintry Conditions"?? Doubtful. But I have been in Germany in late October when there have been flash floods and cars have been aquaplaning all over the place. On this occasion we hadn't taken a vehicle.but were visiting friends. "Wintry conditions" ?? It could be said!! Even our German friends says it is a "grey area" ! But to be safe- from November they fit winter tyres. Would I take a vehicle over there again in December without winter tyres?? Absolutely not. Would I in October? Probably!! But as I say the tread has moved on from the original Post....if the Germans reckon it's a grey area who are we to disagree? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Sophie2 - 2015-09-13 4:14 PM ...if the Germans reckon it's a grey area who are we to disagree? Totally agree *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 Keithl - 2015-09-13 5:13 PM Sophie2 - 2015-09-13 4:14 PM ...if the Germans reckon it's a grey area who are we to disagree? Totally agree *-) I suspect the OP has the message by now, but I don't think the reference to this being a "grey area" is safe. However, if the van is on lightly worn (8mm tread?) Michelin Agilis Camping tyres, I believe they may meet the German requirement. But, do check this carefully. We have "grey" areas in the UK, because our legal concepts say that unless something is prohibited under statute, we are free to do it. A-frames are a case in point - but only insofar as their use in UK is concerned. Once outside the UK, their use infringes statute law on towing in a number of other European countries. There is no "grey" there. There can be no doubt that if the weather is as described (broadly, snowy or icy) the vehicle is legally required to have winter tyres fitted. I can find no "grey" in that. There will always be uncertainty over what tomorrow's weather may bring, but that is all that is "grey": the law is not. Surely this leaves fitting winter tyres before going, or not going to Germany in winter in a vehicle shod with basically summer tyres, as the only legally sound options when contemplating a trip of several hundred miles into an unfamiliar climate, in winter? Otherwise, if one is happy to sit out the bad weather for however long, and then drive back after it has passed, OK, If one is happy to go and buy suitable winter tyres and get them fitted to come home, OK. If one is prepared to take the risk of being fined, and just drive whatever the conditions, OK. If one is prepared to leave one's van in Germany and fly home, OK. The question is, should one point out that these will basically be one's options, if it snows while in Germany? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted September 13, 2015 Share Posted September 13, 2015 So, do M&S tyres count as winter tyres? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Not sure which way to jump! Serious question, or humour? :-) Assuming you are referring to M+S tyres, I believe the Germans may accept these as complying with their legislation - which is why I cited the Michelin Agilis Campers, because they alone are M+S marked. However, I do not know this for a fact, which is why I urged checking. If they do not comply, there is no "camping" tyre that meets the German requirement, and a winter rated light commercial vehicle tyre would have to be used instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 For Germany winter driving M+S rated tyres are acceptable. There should be tread depth indicators inline with the M+S markings on the tyre and these indicate the max tread wear for the rating to apply.....so I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markh1 Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Gordon - yes they do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Thanks , it was a serious question, as most camping tyres are marked M&S the majority of vans should be OK. My tyres are Vanco Four Seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 gocro - 2015-09-14 7:59 AM Thanks , it was a serious question, as most camping tyres are marked M&S the majority of vans should be OK. My tyres are Vanco Four Seasons. I am not so sure Vanco Camping are! I did not think they were and hence why so many have an issue with Germany in the winter. Michelin Agilis Camping are M+S. M+S are suitable for light snow conditions but are not for heavy severe conditions where a winter tyre is more suitable, so not really correct to say they are a 'winter tyre'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 gocro - 2015-09-14 7:59 AM Thanks , it was a serious question, as most camping tyres are marked M&S the majority of vans should be OK. My tyres are Vanco Four Seasons. Sorry Gordon, but I always expect M&S to mean Marks and Spencer, hence my hesitation. :-) Michelin Agilis Camping tyres are the only "camping" tyres marked M+S, so are the only ones acceptable (AFAIK) under the German law. Neither Continental Vanco Camping, nor Pirelli Carrier Camping, are M+S marked. In addition, no "camping" tyre is snowflake (winter) marked. So it is not safe to assume that "camping" tyres are M+S marked and would be acceptable in Germany under snowy or icy conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophie2 Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 So back briefly to the "Grey area" debate. ;-) And to quote directly from our German friends: "It would be much easier if our laws stated that you MUST have winter tyres between 1st November and 31st March, leaving out any reference to "Wintry Conditions". In which case the law would be black and white, leaving no need for our Police to decide on what is Wintry. And that would also be so much more straightforward for foreign visitors to Germany" (I suppose that would explain why they believe as it stands it's a grey area ) :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocro Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 My Four Seasons Vanco's are marked M&S. I'm off to Spain on Sunday for 5 weeks, so I hope this is just academical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 And just to throw the proverbial spanner in the works, Conti DO NOT class their M+S tyres as Winter tyres... "M+S marked Tyres Tyres with the M+S marking on the sidewall typically have tread patterns that provide higher traction on soft ground surfaces (Mud / Snow) than standard summer tyre tread patterns. Unless additionally marked with the “Snow Flake” marking they are not classed as winter tyres and may not offer any improved performance on icy roads. " Quoted from Conti website So no snowflake, no winter tyre! Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timabob Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 To quote the AA: "Germany introduced regulations in 2010 requiring all passenger cars and motorbikes including vehicles from foreign countries to be fitted with winter tyres or all season tyres on all axles when conditions are wintry. Winter tyres (or 'all season' tyres) should bear the mark M+S* or the snowflake symbol on the side wall." In other words tyres with the M+S symbol satisfy the legislation according to the AA, of do they? The AA then have a little footnote that says: "Check with the tyre supplier if you are in any doubt as some 'M+S' tyres sold in the UK are summer tyres. These would not meet the requirements even though the sidewall marking, ‘M+S’, might suggest that they do." Everything is clear then, or not. Do the Michelin Agilis Camping, with the M+S mark therefore meet the German winter requirements or not? The fact that Hymer are selling their vans in Germany with this tyre on suggests they do, but this thread and the AA site have not really clarified matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 There is only one definitive source of information on this, and from the UK that would be the German tourist office. Anyone wanting "chapter and verse" would be well advised to ask them what tyre classification is required. After all, it is German legislation. If the tourist office don't know, perhaps they could be asked to refer the query to the German ministry of transport. However, assuming the quotation that M+S is an acceptable compromise to meet the law, and bearing in mind that we are talking about Motorhomes, so presumably "camping" tyres, there is but one candidate. If non-camping tyres are to be chosen, then there will be wider choice from various manufacturer, and all that is required is to match the size, load and speed rating of the original tyre fitted to the van. I still can't see this grey area, though! :-) We are put on notice that suitable tyres (winter or M+S) must be fitted when winter conditions demand. What more is there to know? No-one can predict the weather in every part of a country days or weeks in advance, so one's only safe course is to fit the appropriate tyres if visiting at the relevant times of year. It just requires a small amount of thought about the possibilities, and a relatively straightforward judgement. It is an expensive course, but not complicated. Many German drivers own two sets of wheels, one shod with summer tyres, and the other with winter so, when in Rome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophie2 Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Brian I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the "grey area" question :-D Good law is that which can easily be interpreted and therefore easily enforced. Any law which requires a subjective view of the enforcers is bad law. That's why much (most?) of our law is quantitative/objective . eg Breathalysers and Blood/alcohol levels, Speed limits, Permitted weights, depth of tread in tyres etc.etc "Wintry" conditions is in my humble opinion, one such "bad law" being open to subjective interpretation- I have shown in a previous Post some examples of where "wintry" can be misinterpreted or where people can have different views/opinions. The "extremes" of weather are easy to define-it's the "blurred" examples which are more difficult to identify. Some call them "grey areas" ;-) And if the "relevant times of the year" were defined as eg 1st November to 31st March, we'd all know where we stand and the law would be easier to comply with-and easier to enforce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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