Leejj09 Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Hi all, My partner and I are travelling around Europe at the moment and are having some camper van issues. We have tried to get them looked at by a few mechanics but alas to no avail. It is a converted 2002 Citroen relay 2.2 HDi diesel. The problem is basically that the van refuses to start at times. When the key is inserted the dash will light up (all good) however when the key is turned to start the car nothing happens (as though it was a flat battery). If the key is removed and tried again it may then start (more often than not this occurs on the 5th attempt or so). However, at other stages it will not start at all and we will have to resort to either roll/jump/push starting the van. This alternative method of car starting is getting pretty old quite quickly as can be imagined... This issues primarily occurs after the van has been left for a little bit (overnight/couple of hours) but at the same time it can not occur at all on some days (typically the ones that the mechanic is taking a look at the van). We had the battery replaced about a week ago and the alternator and starter motor checked 2 days ago and they both seemed to be fine. As a pleasant side note to this, we also have a rough idling issue that rears its ugly head every now and then. The van will drop its rpm, cough and splutter and then pick them back up to normal before doing it again. This only occurs when iddling at traffic etc and not when driving (keeping a foot on the pedal keeps the revs up). Every now and then, if left to do its rev thing, the red warning light will appear indicating injector,fuelling issues (according to the manual). Having read on a few websites that these 2 issues may be linked with something to do with the injectors/glow plugs not getting the correct signal I thought I might put it in. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated as we are at a bit of a loss as to what to do. We are currently traveling through the south around Monaco/Nice heading towards Barcelona so if anyone knows of any good mechanics down this way that speak English well that would be a major bonus as well (my pictionary skills are not as good at explaining car problems as I thought they would be). Thanks in advance J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 You say refuses to start, but then say you can bump start it. If it will start when pushed, the ignition side would seem OK. Do you mean the ignition lights up but the engine won't turn over on the starter? If so, ignition lock not completing starter circuit, wiring between ignition lock and starter relay has intermittent connection, or starter relay not completing circuit, would seem the most likely culprits. Possible new ignition lock, wiring investigation, or new starter relay. That is my generic guess, but I don't know how your vehicle is actually wired or equipped. The irregular idling, assuming this is when the engine is fully hot, is most likely to be a fuelling problem. Simple things first, water in fuel, or fuel filter overdue for a change? Next guess would be a sticking injector. If an injector, you may be able to get it to clear by adding a diesel lubricant (Redex or similar, but not to be confused with petrol engine upper cylinder lubricant) to the tank over a couple of fills (It'll probably take it a while to clear). However, others who know better than me should be able to comment more helpfully when they pick up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Just a thought , do you think this could be a poor earthing problem Try running another earth lead between the battery negative and the engine, worth a try. Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmacz Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Use a lead from positive lead on the starter motor to the little wire on the starter motor solenoid. If it turns over then problem is probably switch. Clean the little wire as it could be damp and bad contact also give it a wiggle with switch in starter position. If you have a meter test wire for 12v again in starter position. You could then wire a switch into this and take it into the cab or get a new ignition switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Classic case of bad earth strap connection usually between starter and chassis, Either corrosion/ fatigue of the woven strands or at either of the bolted connections. .The words you want are connexion de masse and corrosion, Check is controle. Starter is d'marriar . No I dont speak French but I have a Haynes Automotive dictionary Anglais -Francais Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vindiboy Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Good chance that is the Solenoid on the starter motor not engaging before it fires, it has to make a contact before the starter will fire, I had the same problem on a Fiat, it meant a new starter motor. it just gets worse if left alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney123 Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Hi, same as above, I had same problem a couple of years ago, I kept asking various garages to check it out and all to no avail. In the end I would not accept "cant find anything wrong" and would not accept the van back untill they found the fault. The fault turned out to be a faulty starter motor, it was replaced and I have had no further problems. You really got to get a Proper Motor Mechanic to check it for you and not one of these "Lap-top" boffins. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 The starter is a possibility but the at times poor running could also be due to poor earthing and earth straps are cheaper than starters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 We would suggest a bad Earth, most likely on the Starter/Engine block to chassis and would suggest the two issues are linked. The Diesel electronics can draw quite a bit of electrical power, if the connectivity is intermittent then the engine can also run rough at times. Run a new cable from the point the battery earth lead bolts to the body (this is normally not so badly corroded that it breaks when undone) across to the engine block. Choose the earth point carefully by looking for one that looks like it will undo easily yet mounted on the engine Block itself. We suggest you do not try to clean the existing Earth connections on the engine, as broken/damaged bolts are often a result. We often find that for an Earth connector to lose contact through corrosion normally means the bolt is pretty corroded too. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 As an update to this and on Earth issues in general : We had in a Motorhome in the workshop on Saturday 31/10/2015, a Fiat/Lunar 2005, that came to us from a Main Dealer to replace the Calira charger as it would not charge the habitation battery or run the Fridge on 12v. We started by taking battery voltages with the engine running to find the Starter battery only increased by 0.2v. That it did increase slightly suggested a working Alternator, but a bad connection somewhere. When we earthed the Meter lead on the Engine block as opposed to the Battery negative we got a healthy 14.44v, showing the Alternator was working ok. Remembering this Post I asked the owner if he had an issue with poor idling at times. He said he did, usually at night. We asked the owner if it ever ran badly at higher revs. He said it always ran sweet except at idle. So we guessed that the Engine 12v systems, like ECU and Fuel Injection, were not always getting enough Volts/amps from the battery due to the bad Earth connection. So, pure theory, we guessed that at higher rpm the Alternator was spinning faster and able to cater for the extra current drain. But that at idle the lower output from the Alternator was not able to compensate for the poor flow from the battery when there were other high additional electrical loads. Like Headlights, Heater fan, etc. Hence it being worse at night? So, I started the engine, put on all the vehicle lights, Heater Blower, etc and sure enough the engine started to run erratically. We ran a temporary earth lead from body to engine and it immediately picked up and ran sweetly. We switched off the engine, fitted a permanent Earth cable from the point where the battery Earth lead attached to the body, across to a nice clean bolt on the engine (if was clean and rust free after 10 years it is likely to stay that way). Then retested. Engine ran smoothly regardless of Electrical load with a good 14.4v at the Starter battery. Once the new earth cable was in place we rechecked the fault it came in for : the Calira not charging or running the Fridge on 12v. We now found the Calira 'saw' the 14.4v at the Starter battery and hooked in the Fridge and habitation battery charging exactly as it should. Job done, nice small Bill and a happy customer. This was the second Calira 'failure' this week that turned out to be an Earth issue despite being diagnosed else where by 'specialists' as a 'Calira charger problem'. We obviously can't say that this is the same issue as the OP, but the idling symptoms and non Starting can both be explained by poor Earths. Starter Motors are now so reliable that they cover hundreds of thousands of miles on a van. Even on a Stop/Start Delivery vehicle. Eight times out of ten, Starter Motors in for a rebuild on a Motorhome are usually in the prime of their life. The act of removing the old one and fitting the new one effectively renews the electrical connections so 'the new Starter has fixed it'. It certainly won't hurt to put on a new Earth lead and shouldn't cost much. I have therefore translated into French what we suggest you ask a French garage to do : "Monter un nouveau câble de 10 mm de la Terre à partir du point où la batterie au plomb de la Terre attache au corps, à travers à une belle boulon propre sur le moteur". My French is not great, so worth checking it? Please can we suggest you ensure they understand not to clean up the old earth connections on the engine as these are often right at the bottom of the engine where they collect all the road/salt spray. Everything is often rusted solid. A broken bolt can be time consuming to fix so you could end up with a big bill. On some vans, the earth lead attaches to the Starter Motor Solenoid itself. If this is damaged and the Garage can't source just the Solenoid, you could be into a very, very big bill. Possibly a wait while they source the bits? You sometimes get a poor connection between the Engine Block and the Starter where a new cable directly to the Starter is the only cure, but this is very rare. You might find that the engine rough idle is reduced by keeping the Habitation battery at a good charge level and switching the Fridge to Gas operation (just as a test not long term) as both these things place quite a load on the Alternator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 aandncaravan - 2015-11-01 10:34 PM We switched off the engine, fitted a permanent Earth cable from the point where the battery Earth lead attached to the body, across to a nice clean bolt on the engine (if was clean and rust free after 10 years it is likely to stay that way). Alan, Is there any chance of posting a photo of the new earth cable to show exactly where you ran it as this is likely to be far easier for an affected owner to show a garage what they want done? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Yes very good idea. I will try and find time to take a photo and post it on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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