Fiat Ducato engine problem

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Hi and Happy New Year. Forum newbie here who would be very grateful for any advice or thoughts on the following; two years ago we bought a new Dethleffs Alpa on a Fiat Ducato chassis with a 3 litre turbo diesel engine and have had a chain of major engine problems since literally day one. Collection was delayed by a month when an oil leak was discovered the day we were to pick it up which saw the fuel injection system replaced. At its first service oil was discovered in the coolant with more replacements and at its second service the turbo had to be replaced. Having just checked it the dashboard is saying there's a fault with the ABS, EBD and fuel injection systems. After the last problem Fiat gave us £200 off our next service and promised to 'look after' us but with this latest fault we have lost all faith in an engine that's had four major oil system related faults in less than 4000 miles. Do other forum users have any advice or thoughts in terms of any recourse we may have? Is a new engine too much to ask for? Many thanks

[Billggski]

It's back to fiat and demand a new engine I'm afraid. With threats of trading standards etc..

The problem is that the base vehicle has had the coach work added, otherwise you could ask for a replacement vehicle.

[aandncaravan]

Sorry to hear your woes.

It sounds like the majority of the faults are with the Ancillary items on the engine, not the engine itself. If you push for a new engine, do you realise that the Fuel Injection, Turbo, Electronics, etc will all be swapped over from the old Installation?

An Exchange new/rebuilt engine is generally bare of everything, even the Water Pump, so everything is swapped from the donor vehicle.

 

You do sound like you have a Case to take up against Dethleffs/Fiat, but may I suggest you need to be very specific about exactly what you require them to do?

For example something like a faulty Engine Computer Unit not working correctly can cause issues with the Fuel Injection which can then affect the Cylinder Heads, Turbo, etc. Asking for the Engine and Fuel Injection to be replaced and leaving the faulty ECU in place may just give repeat symptoms further down the line.

You need to nail exactly what is wrong?

 

We would suggest it might be time to get in an Engineering expert to go through all the Invoices and the Vehicle to produce a report?

He may not want to take the work on but there is no one I know better qualified than Nick at Euroserv?

 

Don't forget Dethleffs are also responsible here, they contracted to supply a Motorhome that was fit for purpose which it clearly isn't, nor has it been. They may try and pass the buck onto Fiat, but your initial contract is with them.

Dethleffs have a lot more 'Clout' with Fiat than you to get it sorted.

 

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Jemima Puddleduck - 2016-01-01 1:09 PM

 

Hi and Happy New Year. Forum newbie here who would be very grateful for any advice or thoughts on the following; two years ago we bought a new Dethleffs Alpa on a Fiat Ducato chassis with a 3 litre turbo diesel engine and have had a chain of major engine problems since literally day one. Collection was delayed by a month when an oil leak was discovered the day we were to pick it up which saw the fuel injection system replaced. At its first service oil was discovered in the coolant with more replacements and at its second service the turbo had to be replaced. Having just checked it the dashboard is saying there's a fault with the ABS, EBD and fuel injection systems. After the last problem Fiat gave us £200 off our next service and promised to 'look after' us but with this latest fault we have lost all faith in an engine that's had four major oil system related faults in less than 4000 miles. Do other forum users have any advice or thoughts in terms of any recourse we may have? Is a new engine too much to ask for? Many thanks

And a Happy New Year to you too! I think at this stage you need to do two things.

 

First, engage the dealer you bought the van from, explain what has happened, give them the evidence, and ask them what they will do about it. This is important because although you have reasonably relied on Fiat, presumably under their warranty, you have no legal recourse against Fiat or (I'm assuming not having been charged for the repairs to date) the Fiat dealer. It is the dealer who sold you the van who is legally liable for getting it put right. Don't let them fend you off with excuses about warranties, the warranties are in addition to, and do not limit, your right to have the faults repaired by the seller.

 

Second, get hold of your local Trading Standards people, or Citizen's Advice, and get their guidance on what you should do next. You will have some difficulty trying to reject the vehicle so long after having taken delivery of it, but on the basis of the drip-feed of faults it would be unreasonable to expect you to have reached the conclusion you have now reached any earlier. However, you will need legal advice to take that road and must allow yourselves to be guided by your advisor because doing, or saying, the wrong thing at the wring time can reduce the validity of your case. My rider to this would be to look through all your insurance policies (house and contents as well as vehicles) to see if any include legal advice. A surprising number now do.

 

The main issue is that the vehicle is not, strictly, a Fiat. It is a Dethleffs motorhome, and although the mechanical elements were supplied to Dethleffs by Fiat, it is Dethleffs who finished the vehicle so, under circumstances where Fiat cannot apparently find the cause of the faults (which may well not be just with the components that have, to date, been replaced), the converter, and hence his selling agent, must assume responsibility for getting it fixed. This is not to say that Dethleffs have to repair the Fiat elements, but they and their dealer should be exerting pressure on Fiat to thoroughly examine the vehicle and come up with a comprehensive repair plan.

 

Don't forget through this process that the vehicle is yours, and that you have a right under consumer legislation to be satisfied about the proposed remedy. It is not for either party to take it away and just carry out work without consultation or explanation as to what they propose doing and why, which too often seems the pattern under warranties where the consumer has relatively few rights.

 

I agree with the idea of contacting "euroserv" (Nick Fisher) as he has a greater depth of knowledge of the Ducato than many Fiat commercial garages. He runs, and carries out many repairs to, a fleet of Ducato hire vehicles, and is immensely generous with his time in giving advice on this forum. He probably won't speak to me again for dropping him in it without first asking, but in view of the history you have recounted, and the fact that warranties should still be in force (meaning that the manufacturer, and not the dealer, should ultimately pick up the bills - which should ensure the dealer is a bit more cooperative than he might otherwise be), but will possibly soon expire, I hope he will forgive me!

 

Why not drop him a PM? He is Leicester based, you haven't said where you live, but if the van is drivable and Nick is willing to take a look, even a long trip would still, IMO, be worthwhile. A neutral expert should be worth a lot under the circumstances.

[Jemima Puddleduck]

I can't thank you enough for your help and advice; being two mechanically-inept girls we have no idea about the practical aspects of the engine but are more than capable of making our voices heard where the dealer and manufacturer are concerned! We live in Hebden Bridge in West Yorkshire, some distance away from the dealer (who have, to be fair, been extremely helpful and approachable so far) in West Sussex but I'm more than willing to get it to them to sort this out once and for all. Thank you once again.

[aandncaravan]

Brian's advice is exceptional, well thought out, thorough with a lot of time given freely in wording his reply, as always.

I agree with him on every aspect, but not sure if he is saying get the Independent test done first?

As I tried to point out in my first post, we don't think you have the information you need to go to the Dealer or Legal Advisor, as indicated by your first post where you 'want a new engine' when that may not be the issue?.

 

We suggest you engage a mechanical specialist first, before you take legal advice or go to the Dethleffs Dealer.

The advice the Technician gives may dictate the approach the legal Advisor suggests.

For example, if in the Technicians opinion, the Fiat Dealership have followed the wrong route in their diagnosis and repair work, it may just require a new course of action to identify what now needs to be done?

 

However, your Technical Specialist may find that each issue is an isolated, unrelated occurrence with a whole host of other issues waiting to show themselves.

 

If this is the case, the solution may be a more encompassing one. Maybe to include more areas in need of work, maybe provide enough evidence to press for a new van?

 

As Brian says you need to take legal advice, but we would suggest you need a base point of information to take to the legal Advisor before you talk to the Dealer.

Not many Legal Advisors understand Mechanical matters. By your own admission you are not experts at engineering, so what you relay to the legal Advisor may not be 'fact'?

 

The Engineers report will put into lay terms exactly what is and what isn't.

They are normally both a technical document and a lay document capable of being presented in Court.

 

An independent technical assessment carries a lot of weight.

For one it lets your legal advisor know that he is dealing with fact and not feeling, which will generate confidence. It also starts him off with a very strong case.

With the correct, powerful information right at the start, it can shorten an action dramatically. Obviously saving lots of expensive Solicitors time can be a huge amount of money saved.

 

It lets the Dealer know that you are serious and have gone to the trouble of collecting detailed technical information. A report he is unlikely to be able to argue against.

 

In our view it reduces the need for any 'real' Legal Action nine times out of ten.

 

We would suggest a Technical assessment will most likely repay it's cost several times over.

 

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Jemima Puddleduck - 2016-01-02 8:15 AM

 

I can't thank you enough for your help and advice; being two mechanically-inept girls we have no idea about the practical aspects of the engine but are more than capable of making our voices heard where the dealer and manufacturer are concerned! We live in Hebden Bridge in West Yorkshire, some distance away from the dealer (who have, to be fair, been extremely helpful and approachable so far) in West Sussex but I'm more than willing to get it to them to sort this out once and for all. Thank you once again.

You are welcome. Re the dealer: Premier Motorhomes, by any chance? If so, you are in good, if remote, hands. A thank you to Allan for his plaudits, and I hope the advice is helpful.

 

However, re the legal advice, I'm not suggesting you should need to rely on this (I sincerely hope not) but if you eventually find that you do, because normal persuasion and people doing what they should do fails, it is useful to get all your ducks (puddle or otherwise :-)) in a row early, as you will then know where you stand and what you can realistically expect to achieve. Just a comfort to have up your sleeve if you need it.

 

The reported initial oil leak must, presumably, have actually been a fuel leak, as I don't see why an oil leak would require replacement of injectors?

 

Oil in the coolant suggests to me a problem with the cylinder head as, AFAIK, that is about the only place where the two fluids can come into contact. Were you told the actual cause of this, and what was done to cure it?

 

Do you know why the turbo was replaced? The "usual" (most do not have problems, especially so early in their lives) cause of turbo failure is lack of lubrication which, unless the garage carrying out earlier repairs messed up, seems possibly indicative of a lack of oil pressure/delivery. I would have thought that possibility should have been investigated at the time. Do you know if it was? Are you comfortable with the competence of the garage?

 

The dashboard indications may be due to actual faults, or to spurious electrical signals from poor connections in certain locations, on which subject Nick is our resident expert! :-D

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Just a quick update on progress, or lack thereof, with this issue. The garage (nationwide chain of Fiat and Iveco specialists, Northern Commercial) have said that the ABS pump needs to be replaced. The part is in stock and ready to be fitted but all is now in the hands of Fiat, whose 'good will policy' changed on 1st January, as we await their decision of who will pay for the parts and labour, Fiat or us. We've now lost 5 days of our holiday...

[Brian Kirby]

Jemima Puddleduck - 2016-01-08 10:05 AM...............The garage (nationwide chain of Fiat and Iveco specialists, Northern Commercial) have said that the ABS pump needs to be replaced. ................

New one on me! Didn't know there was an ABS pump. Are you sure? This sounds a teeny bit like "carry on replacing bits until we find which bit was actually defective". Easy, if someone else is paying for their discovery learning escapades.

 

Sorry to be a Jerimiah, but this is all beginning to sound very odd indeed to me.

 

First there was an oil leak from the engine that required the injectors to be replaced. Highly improbable.

 

First service there was oil in the coolant. This would usually be indicative of of a warped cylinder head, where lubricating oil under pressure was being forced into the cooling circuit through the gap between cylinder head and cylinder block. Serious problem, possibly requiring a replacement cylinder head. What was actually done to prevent this progressing?

 

Turbo needed replacing at the second service. Why? What caused its failure? As I said, the usual (but relatively rare) cause is lack of lubrication of the turbo bearings. What actually failed?

 

Now further problems diagnosed as a pump that I don't believe exists needing to be replaced!

 

Has your van actually broken down, or caused you concern, at any point? If not, with this litany of faults, I'm a mite surprised. Have you contacted Fiat customer services, listed off the faults so far to them, and asked for a case to be raised and for these faults to be properly investigated? It all just seems a bit improbable.

 

The van is only just over two years old, and you said had covered only about 4,000 miles. So age and wear and tear can reasonably be discounted. It's either a complete manufacturing basket case (which I doubt), or your friendly local Fiat dealership are not nearly as technically competent as they should be. At present, based on the history as reported, I'm strongly inclined to suspect the latter!

[Keithl]

Brian Kirby - 2016-01-08 11:17 AM

 

Jemima Puddleduck - 2016-01-08 10:05 AM...............The garage (nationwide chain of Fiat and Iveco specialists, Northern Commercial) have said that the ABS pump needs to be replaced. ................

New one on me! Didn't know there was an ABS pump. Are you sure? This sounds a teeny bit like "carry on replacing bits until we find which bit was actually defective". Easy, if someone else is paying for their discovery learning escapades.

 

Brian,

 

Google is your friend...

 

http://www.ecutesting.com/catalogue/product/fiat_ducato_abs_pump__ecumodule_combined_amc176823-a.html

 

Keith.

[Brian Kirby]

Well, we lives and we learns! Thanks Keith. No idea what it does, but it clearly exists.

 

However, I still think this is a very strange list of apparently unrelated faults for one relatively new vehicle. Seems to me that either the robots all had a very bad Friday, or there is an as yet undiagnosed common factor, or someone is being taken for a very expensive ride. Could be chance, of course, but it seems increasingly unlikely. Anyone else agree?

[Keithl]

Brian Kirby - 2016-01-08 11:47 AM

 

Well, we lives and we learns! Thanks Keith. No idea what it does, but it clearly exists.

 

"Pump

 

The pump in the ABS is used to restore the pressure to the hydraulic brakes after the valves have released it. A signal from the controller will release the valve at the detection of wheel slip. After a valve release the pressure supplied from the user, the pump is used to restore a desired amount of pressure to the braking system. The controller will modulate the pumps status in order to provide the desired amount of pressure and reduce slipping."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

 

HTH,

Keith.

[aandncaravan]

I do agree, but until someone 'professional' does, it's all guess work.

I also suspect that there might be more to come?

 

I really think you need someone professional to look at what has been done, what is waiting to fail and produce a report.

Then seek legal advice.

The first stage of good legal advice is to 'nicely' ask for it to be resolved. Doesn't need to be anything 'heavy'.

Normally a 'nice' ask backed up with legal representation and a professional assessment does the trick 99% of the time.

 

We do a few of these for Citroen H van owners that have been treated poorly by both private sellers and Trade as the vehicle is so easy to make look 'new' with a coat of Paint. Underneath we normally find there is a 1947 engine ready to blow up, etc.

 

Get the report, which will also have advice on the suggested approach, then seek Legal.

You don't need to follow the legal advice, but you should find out potential implications.

 

 

 

[euroserv]

Hello, and a hearty HOLY CRAP!

 

The first thing to establish is whether this this vehicle is still covered by manufacturer's warranty. If it is; it should not be costing anyone anything to get it fixed! If it is out of warranty, some of the repairs will have been carried out while said warranty was still in force; so the best thing to do is to contact Fiat Customer Relations and get a case number. They will investigate what has happened so far and establish what should happen next.

 

My guess is that the original fault was with the oil cooler which can easily have allowed water into the oil, and vice versa. This is one of the few places that this can happen other than the cylinder head; which is very unlikely. It is a very rare fault on a Fiat (very common on Ford engines) but it is the best fit for the symptoms. The contamination of the oil could easily have lead to premature wear in the turbo as well. I suspect that there is now also a wiring fault that is suggesting that there is something wrong with the ABS system and i doubt that this is related to the original faults unless someone has damaged the wiring while attending to the earlier problems.

 

As others have alluded to already; if this was a panel van, there would be no doubt that you would be justified in giving it back to the firm that sold it to you, and demand another or your money back but when it is a converted vehicle; this is not so simple.

 

The Fiat agent that has already been working on this vehicle has very likely misdiagnosed faults that have been paid for by Fiat under the warranty. There may be some awkwardness between them and Fiat if they appear to have made some errors already, but they remain the most appropriate people to persevere with this and get it right. With help form Fiat Customer Relations you should be able to get everything sorted out. My only concern is their reliance on test procedures and swapping parts without the proper amount of deductive reasoning and investigation of electrics (which are a very common problem) before doing so.

 

If they think it needs an ABS pump, and they or Fiat are paying for it; why not? If it is your money, you will need to get assurances from the garage that they have checked the electrics first and contact Fiat yourself to make sure that they are aware of the situation and are prepared to help with the costs if not meet them entirely. They should be paying for all of it, and probably will.

 

This number works from anywhere in Europe; 00 800 342 800 00

 

Nick

[Brian Kirby]

Keithl - 2016-01-08 12:15 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2016-01-08 11:47 AM

 

Well, we lives and we learns! Thanks Keith. No idea what it does, but it clearly exists.

 

"Pump

 

The pump in the ABS is used to restore the pressure to the hydraulic brakes after the valves have released it. A signal from the controller will release the valve at the detection of wheel slip. After a valve release the pressure supplied from the user, the pump is used to restore a desired amount of pressure to the braking system. The controller will modulate the pumps status in order to provide the desired amount of pressure and reduce slipping."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

 

HTH,

Keith.

Well, thank you again Keith. I lives some more, and learns some more! I had imagined all the necessary pressure would come via the brake pedal. Not so simple!

[Brian Kirby]

euroserv - 2016-01-08 12:55 PM...........................The first thing to establish is whether this this vehicle is still covered by manufacturer's warranty. If it is; it should not be costing anyone anything to get it fixed! If it is out of warranty, some of the repairs will have been carried out while said warranty was still in force; so the best thing to do is to contact Fiat Customer Relations and get a case number. They will investigate what has happened so far and establish what should happen next.

Good advice Nick, and thanks.

 

My guess is that the original fault was with the oil cooler which can easily have allowed water into the oil, and vice versa. This is one of the few places that this can happen other than the cylinder head; which is very unlikely. It is a very rare fault on a Fiat (very common on Ford engines) but it is the best fit for the symptoms. The contamination of the oil could easily have lead to premature wear in the turbo as well. I suspect that there is now also a wiring fault that is suggesting that there is something wrong with the ABS system and i doubt that this is related to the original faults unless someone has damaged the wiring while attending to the earlier problems.

More living and learning for me. I had thought the oil cooler was an oil to air, not an oil to water, heat exchanger. That would indeed explain the oil in the coolant. Not so easy to explain why the garage therefore changed the injectors, though! If contaminated oil might therefore have damaged the turbo, which seems entirely logical to me, it would surely have circulated throughout the whole engine? Don't want to scare monger, but that seems to open a whole can of worms that should be investigated, and then ruled in or out.

 

.........................................

The Fiat agent that has already been working on this vehicle has very likely misdiagnosed faults that have been paid for by Fiat under the warranty. There may be some awkwardness between them and Fiat if they appear to have made some errors already, but they remain the most appropriate people to persevere with this and get it right. With help form Fiat Customer Relations you should be able to get everything sorted out. My only concern is their reliance on test procedures and swapping parts without the proper amount of deductive reasoning and investigation of electrics (which are a very common problem) before doing so.

Agreed.

 

If they think it needs an ABS pump, and they or Fiat are paying for it; why not? If it is your money, you will need to get assurances from the garage that they have checked the electrics first and contact Fiat yourself to make sure that they are aware of the situation and are prepared to help with the costs if not meet them entirely. They should be paying for all of it, and probably will.

 

This number works from anywhere in Europe; 00 800 342 800 00

 

Nick

I just have this lingering niggle that so much work has already taken place, at considerable cost to someone, and the real problem has not yet been bottomed out. I get the impression that the original oil leak problem (discovered at the point of delivery, presumably some time in 2013) was attended to via the dealer who supplied the van initially (based in West Sussex), and Jemima is up in Hebden Bridge.

 

There is mention of "further replacements" (unspecified) at the "first service" (presumably in 2014) at the time the contaminated coolant was discovered. That points to the contaminated coolant, and possibly contaminated oil, having circulated round the engine for a year before its discovery. Were those further replacements linked to contaminated oil or coolant, or something else?

 

The turbo was replaced during the second service, so presumably in 2015.

 

I'm slightly intrigued that the first service took place after one year when the vehicle, to date, has apparently covered only 4,000 miles. The mileage would definitely not have warranted this, and the stated interval for servicing is otherwise every 24 months (from our 2013 X250 based owner's manual). Was this at someone's suggestion? I'd also like to know if the oil and coolant were changed at the time the oil leak was repaired, to eliminate the possibility of either being contaminated. Further, I'm a mite curious as to what those unspecified replacements were at the time of the first service. Can Jemima help us out on these points?

[euroserv]

There is an awful lot of room for speculation here, and while i am sure that the OP will provide what information they have regarding the work done in the past; I would not be the least surprised if this information is limited. Fiat agents that carry out warranty work are not supposed to share the details of the work as invoiced to Fiat. They can get into a lot of trouble for sharing copies of invoices especially, so a detailed breakdown of each job is hard to come by and i would not expect a retail customer to be in possession of such documents.

 

I did not see any mention of replaced injectors, but that 'the fuel injection system was replaced'. In all honesty; if a customer is told something like that, and they did not have to pay for it; why would they want more detail? The chances are that a low pressure fuel pipe was leaking and this looked like an oil leak. It's not a small job to replace fuel pipes.

 

For the record; I have never had an oil leak on a 2.3 or 3.0 Ducato built since 2006 that was not caused by something catastrophic and even then at 150,000 miles or more. They don't leak oil.

I have also only replaced a couple of injectors in a 2.3 engine because they had started to pass fuel through even when switched off; again at some 150,000 miles. Never any on 3.0 engines.

I have this week replaced my first oil cooler on a 2.3 engine. It was leaking externally from the coolant connection. I actually just removed it and replaced the seals. The vehicle has covered 175,000 miles and is a 2011 model.

I have been running Fiat Ducato's with ABS since 2001 and i have never had to replace an ABS pump; ever.

There have been many issues regarding wiring on X250 Ducato's but never so soon as this. The earliest that i have seen was after about 35,000 miles and 18 months but this was remarkably early. Dare i be the first to suggest Mice?

 

I have been thinking about the Turbo. It is quite possible that on a vehicle that covers so few miles, it is probably sitting doing nothing for very long periods and in this case, each time it is started the turbo will be pretty much without oil. This can be very damaging or will at least shorten the life of the unit considerably. Just a thought.

 

My gut feeling is that there has been a combination of a lack of competence and a severe shortage of adequate communication. I hope that we can find out more about what has actually been done and how things proceed from here but from where i am sitting this looks like a catalogue of disasters and worries me a lot; not because it suggests that there are lots of faults with 3.0 Ducatos, because there just aren't, but because a workshop can get it wrong and others continue to get it wrong just long enough to run out of warranty!

 

Nick

[Brian Kirby]

euroserv - 2016-01-08 5:37 PM

 

There is an awful lot of room for speculation here, and while i am sure that the OP will provide what information they have regarding the work done in the past; I would not be the least surprised if this information is limited. Fiat agents that carry out warranty work are not supposed to share the details of the work as invoiced to Fiat. They can get into a lot of trouble for sharing copies of invoices especially, so a detailed breakdown of each job is hard to come by and i would not expect a retail customer to be in possession of such documents.

Agreed, and no criticism of Jemima was/is intended. Just that it would be interesting to know if any additional detail was given. I think I would have sought a clearer understanding of the fault, so assumed everyone else would as well.

 

I did not see any mention of replaced injectors, but that 'the fuel injection system was replaced'. In all honesty; if a customer is told something like that, and they did not have to pay for it; why would they want more detail? The chances are that a low pressure fuel pipe was leaking and this looked like an oil leak. It's not a small job to replace fuel pipes........................................................

Nick

You are right, of course, Nick: injectors was my immediate interpretation of "fuel injection system". I very much echo the sentiments of your final paragraph, and am grateful that you've applied your knowledge to my untutored suspicions. I just hope Jemima can use the factual background you have provided to persuade Fiat to play ball over the costs. As an ex colleague of mine used to say "I smell rodent". That mouse again? :-D

[Jemima Puddleduck]

And the latest is...Fiat are refusing to cover the cost of repair because the van has been serviced by a local motorhome dealer (a Fiat approved garage) and not Northern Commercials who have carried out the previous warranty work. This despite the fact that Fiat have knowingly accepted the service history from the local dealership in previous warranty claims.

We have been in close contact with Fiat Customer Service for the past four days as we called to get an update on our case. When we rang them yesterday afternoon to find out why they had told Northern Commercials that the work wouldn't be covered we were told 'it's too late to do anything about it now, we'll get back to you around the middle of next week'!

We have now sought legal advice and this has confirmed the wise words posted on here that we need to get an independent technical report. We have also contacted Dethleffs who responded immediately and asked for the VIN number so I hope that indicates they are going to investigate the matter themselves. The original dealership (spot on guessing Premier) have also been informed of the situation and are also contacting Fiat and Dethleffs. Incidentally, I cannot praise Premier highly enough, they have been absolutely superb throughout this whole sorry saga.

To answer a question from an earlier post, we have asked the Fiat garage why faults have occurred and if they are connected but as was guessed, they were non-committal and we certainly don't have any paperwork of substance although it is clear from speaking with Fiat Customer Service that all faults and repairs have been logged.

And to clarify, the manufacturer's warranty expired five weeks ago. As the van has had so many problems we took out a three year extended warranty but have been advised by the solicitor to not use this to have the fault repaired as this will effectively destroy the evidence that the part is faulty.

We are now at the point where, if our protest that Fiat have accepted the local motorhome dealership's service history with previous claims is rejected and Fiat still refuse to pay for the work then we will have no option but to concede that the vehicle is not fit for purpose and return it to the original dealership. This is the very last thing we want to do but we cannot have a £70+k motorhome that doesn't motor reliably. And if they have the independent tech done and any underlying cause can be found and fixed we would willingly have the van back. We're not looking for something for nothing we just want a van that works consistently.

We'd be really grateful for any opinions or thoughts. Finally, as the van, currently with the Fiat garage, Northern Commercials, cannot be driven as it won't rev over 1500rpm and would do only 10mph (approx - couldn't be specific as the speedo was also not working along with the dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree) would an independent techie go to the vehicle or would it have to be transported to them?

Many thanks once again, I can't tell you how much all your inout is valued.

[aandncaravan]

Some specialist Technical assessors will travel, some won't. However, because the cost of transporting the van will be so great, I would suggest that, when you find the right man, you impress upon him that you are happy to consider travelling expenses and time?

 

The Fiat Dealership should afford him every assistance in carrying out his work, if they don't, it would look very bad against them later.

 

I am glad you have taken this route as my worry is that the original work may have been done badly with the potential for long term damage yet to show itself?

That makes the case much more complex than just a warranty claim, it might actually strengthen your case in getting things resolved?.

 

 

May I suggest you write to Northern Commercials, quoting the Freedom of Information act, requesting all the data held about you and this case? While companies always try and hold data back, it isn't always legal, exactly why the act was created. It can take quite a while so suggest you do this as soon as practical.

The very fact that the request has been made will also, hopefully, make people jump-up and take notice? I wouldn't mind betting that most Commercial Repairers won't know what the act is, nor ever had a request made under it? Submitting one will probably go to the very top of the company as no one will be quite sure what to do with it?

Either that or go straight in Bin!!

 

 

We do work for Premier Motorhomes, from our dealings with them, we would suggest they are one of the best.

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Before someone says the Freedom of Information Act is about Public held information, it stills does the trick 90% of the time.

Private data is covered by the Data protection Act 2001 ( I think section 4?) but asking for it under the Freedom of Information Act works better, in our view, if you want to be noticed.

[Brian Kirby]

Jemima Puddleduck - 2016-01-09 2:13 PM

 

And the latest is...Fiat are refusing to cover the cost of repair because the van has been serviced by a local motorhome dealer (a Fiat approved garage) and not Northern Commercials who have carried out the previous warranty work. This despite the fact that Fiat have knowingly accepted the service history from the local dealership in previous warranty claims.

We have been in close contact with Fiat Customer Service for the past four days as we called to get an update on our case. When we rang them yesterday afternoon to find out why they had told Northern Commercials that the work wouldn't be covered we were told 'it's too late to do anything about it now, we'll get back to you around the middle of next week'!

I'm not a lawyer, but I think Fiat are legally in the wrong over this. AFAIK, for servicing you are legally entitled to use any competent service garage, whether an authorised Fiat service centre or not. If you get problems that can be attributed to poor servicing (mainly likely to be non Fiat branded parts used, or wrong lubricants/fluids used), then the failure to use a Fiat authorised service centre would probably cause problems, but it seems the problems with your van are not servicing related, but have been caused by failures of non-serviceable Fiat parts. It is only a Fiat authorised repairer (in the case of a Ducato probably a Fiat Commercial repairer) who can carry out warranty work, but that is reasonable and understandable since the work is then also warranted. So, if the servicing has been carried out at the appropriate times (and I'm still a bit puzzled by that first year service, which I think was carried out 12 months early), and especially if it was carried out by a Fiat authorised service centre, I think they are just wrong. I think this needs to be explained to them again, in case they have the wrong end of the stick. The only other thing I can think of is that the garage who carried out the service are no longer Fiat approved. But even then, providing they carried out the work, and used parts and lubricants, all in accordance with Fiat's specifications (and that can be proved), they have no grounds for saying that the terms of their warranty have not been complied with - which is what I understand them to be saying.

 

We have now sought legal advice and this has confirmed the wise words posted on here that we need to get an independent technical report. We have also contacted Dethleffs who responded immediately and asked for the VIN number so I hope that indicates they are going to investigate the matter themselves. The original dealership (spot on guessing Premier) have also been informed of the situation and are also contacting Fiat and Dethleffs. Incidentally, I cannot praise Premier highly enough, they have been absolutely superb throughout this whole sorry saga.

Don't rush this legal aspect. First, for reasons stated above, I think Fiat need a re-think on what they have said, and may well change their mind. Second, an independent technical report will be costly and, unless your investigating engineer has access to the full repair history and the defective parts (which I assume only Fiat can/could release) he will be left to make assumptions as to why the various repairs were necessary. Nick has made an educated guess as to what caused the oil leak, but without the detailed knowledge of what actually caused it, and what was done to rectify it, your engineer will be reduced to guessing just as we are trying to do. Same for the "fuel injection system" replacements. Same for the "oil was discovered in the coolant", ditto the "more replacements" (BTW, what were those?), ditto the replaced turbo, and potentially ditto the ABS pump. At the moment, I'm afraid I think Fiat hold all the aces (plus all the relevant information).

 

To answer a question from an earlier post, we have asked the Fiat garage why faults have occurred and if they are connected but as was guessed, they were non-committal and we certainly don't have any paperwork of substance although it is clear from speaking with Fiat Customer Service that all faults and repairs have been logged.

And to clarify, the manufacturer's warranty expired five weeks ago. As the van has had so many problems we took out a three year extended warranty but have been advised by the solicitor to not use this to have the fault repaired as this will effectively destroy the evidence that the part is faulty.

If the warranty expired five weeks ago that would be late November/early December. The van has had two services (one of which I think may have been additional to the service schedule), and your first post said you have had it two years. I assume it was delivered late November/early December 2013? I had understood that where a Ducato was supplied through a UK dealership the Fiat warranty would be three years (two years so-called contractual warranty, and third year dealer warranty), so on that basis the warranty should still be in force, though I think with some reduced cover in the third year. Is this correct, or are we at cross-purposes with dates? Is it possible that for some reason only the contractual warranty period (2 years) has remained with the vehicle, and the third year dealer warranty has not been provided? Also, don't forget the warranty actually commenced on the day you actually took delivery, not on the day originally set for delivery (that one month delay to repair the oil leak).

 

We are now at the point where, if our protest that Fiat have accepted the local motorhome dealership's service history with previous claims is rejected and Fiat still refuse to pay for the work then we will have no option but to concede that the vehicle is not fit for purpose and return it to the original dealership. This is the very last thing we want to do but we cannot have a £70+k motorhome that doesn't motor reliably. And if they have the independent tech done and any underlying cause can be found and fixed we would willingly have the van back. We're not looking for something for nothing we just want a van that works consistently.

We'd be really grateful for any opinions or thoughts.

This devil is rather in the detail: you have much of the detail, and Fiat has the rest! It seems three Fiat authorised service centres/repairers have so far been involved. The first I assume brought into play by Premier for the initial oil leak, the second by yourselves for servicing, and the third, it seems by Fiat, for the remaining repairs. To date, you have (reasonably) relied on the Fiat warranty to fix Fiat faults. I gather that Premier (and through them Dethleffs) have only been involved relatively recently, so have perhaps only just been made aware of the history? Clearly, the vehicle has been the subject of an almost unbelievable litany of faults, and equally those faults will have disrupted your ability to use it, and have understandably caused you to lose confidence in its reliability. Whether that alone will amount to sufficient grounds to reject after so long has elapsed, and after having, in the legal sense, accepted the van, I don't know, but I suspect rejection will be a very bumpy road. I hope your legal advisor is a specialist in consumer law, because I think he will need to be to succeed on your behalf. If you succeed the van will have to go back to the dealer, who will then find himself in possession of a two year motorhome that has a warranty record to make one weep. I wouldn't expect any business, however nice to deal with, to be ready and willing to take on a potential loss of that proportion without some resistance. Also, see what your solicitor says about how much you should realistically expect to receive by way of compensation, as I suspect a court would expect the two years use you have had from the van to be taken into account. The legal route is, very much, IMO, a last resort. Patient persuasion will be more likely to yield a reasonably satisfactory outcome, at least overall cost, in the shortest time.

 

Finally, as the van, currently with the Fiat garage, Northern Commercials, cannot be driven as it won't rev over 1500rpm and would do only 10mph (approx - couldn't be specific as the speedo was also not working along with the dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree) would an independent techie go to the vehicle or would it have to be transported to them?

Many thanks once again, I can't tell you how much all your inout is valued.

How did it get to Northern Commercials? Was it taken on a recovery truck, or were you advised to drive it to them? Under present circumstances you don't want to do anything to prejudice your position vis-a-vis Fiat's warranty.

[weldted]

Probably wrong? But I have a 2012 Elddis on a Boxer 2.200cc. I was suffering all sorts of problems i.e.

Any faster than 40 mph it would go into limp mode, stop engine wait a couple of mins drive on fine till you tried to go over 40, next day could do 60 before it happened again em light on. No blower working, go over a bump fan would run for a while, no horn, had to brake very hard on wet road no abs!! Turned out corrosion in the fuse box required a new one. I know this will have nothing to do with the oil problem but it is a thought. Hope you get it sorted. When my fuse box went I was seven weeks out of warranty but a very nice letter resulted in Peugot covering the cost, my oil cooler had a small leak which they covered as well total quote was £760!! Phew.

[euroserv]

Just to get this in perspective; and i sincerely apologise if i am wrong, but it seems that all of the previous repairs have been in some way successful and that at this point the vehicle has a dashboard lit up like a christmas tree and the only diagnosis appears to be that it needs an ABS pump?

 

The dealer should be looking for an electrical fault since the numerous dash lights and the inability to travel at over 10mph cannot be anything to do with the ABS pump!

 

In the case of Euro 4 vehicles (which i would have thought this was not) the most likely cause is corrosion in the wiring loom underneath the fuse box and in particular the blue connecting plug. A single pair of wires shorting could cause all of this, and it's such a common fault that Northern Commercials should have already looked into this. The plug in question is known in this trade as 'rusty junction' and it has earned that title in spades over the years! On Euro 5 vehicles the arrangement of the wiring and connectors has changed, so may introduce it's own new problems. I have seen none yet.

 

Is this a 160hp Euro 4?

 

It really winds me up that even at main agents, the practice of plugging in to a vehicle and assuming that the fault codes and the items that these represent are the sole problem and just swapping parts until they get lucky is still common. The fault codes suggest that a device is either not functioning as it should or that the wiring to or from it is compromised. If any measured value concerning the device has been reported to the ECU as incorrect or not as expected, this does not mean the device is at fault!

It's as stupid as changing a lightbulb at home because it is not illuminated without trying the switch first!

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Nick, it's a 3 litre euro 5 180bhp engine

Worryingly for every owner of a motorhome with a Fiat base vehicle, Fiat have today said that because we have not shown goodwill towards the brand by using a Fiat Professional garage for services but instead have used only a Fiat approved motorhome dealership, then they are withdrawing their goodwill towards us and that they have fixed all previous faults only because they were obliged to do so under warranty. The ramifications for every Fiat-based owner and all local motorhome dealerships is staggering. We have fired off emails saying that we have taken legal advice and that as nowhere is it stated that Fiat Professional garages must be used then this is not a worthy reason to refuse to do the work and will update on the reply - if any - we get from this.