John52 Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 So the Duke of Westminster's son is to inherit £10bn or so. Does this mean £4bn of inheritance tax to pay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 In yer dreams ;-) ........... Although it just goes to show it doesn't matter how wealthy you are when the grim reaper comes a calling :-| ........... He didn't even get to draw his state pension 8-)........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 If George Osborne hadn't advised people to use smart products to avoid tax the Duke might have had to scrape by with only a £6 billion inheritance instead of £10 billion *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 Lloyd George said it best in 1909. "What is the landlord's increment? Who is the landlord? The landlord is a gentleman - I have not a word to say about him in his personal capacity - the landlord is a gentleman who does not earn his wealth. He does not even take the trouble to receive his wealth. He has a host of agents and clerks to receive it for him. He does not even take the trouble to spend his wealth. He has a host of people around him to do the actual spending for him. He never sees it until he comes to enjoy it. His sole function, his chief pride, is stately consumption of wealth produced by others. What about the doctor's income? How does the doctor earn his income? The doctor is a man who visits our homes when they are darkened with the shadow of death: who, by his skill, his trained courage, his genius, wrings hope out of the grip of despair, wins life out of the fangs of the Great Destroyer. All blessings upon him and his divine art of healing that mends bruised bodies and anxious hearts. To compare the reward which he gets for that labour with the wealth which pours into the pockets of the landlord purely owing to the possession of his monopoly is a piece - if they will forgive me for saying so - of insolence which no intelligent man would tolerate. Now that is the halfpenny tax on unearned increment. This system is not business, it is blackmail Now I come to the reversion tax. What is the reversion tax? You have got a system in the country which is not tolerated in any other country of the world, except, I believe, Turkey; the system whereby landlords take advantage of the fact that they have got complete control over the land to let it for a term of years, spend money upon it in building, in developing it. You improve the building, and year by year the value passes into the pockets of the landlord, and at the end of sixty, seventy, eighty or ninety years the whole of it passes away to the pockets of a man who never spent a penny upon it. Look at all this leasehold system. This system - it is the system I am attacking, not individuals - is not business, it is blackmail. I have no doubt some of you have taken the trouble to peruse some of these leases, and they are really worth reading, and I will guarantee that if you circulate copies of some of these building and mining leases at Tariff Reform meetings, and if you can get workmen at those meetings and the business men to read them, they will come away sadder but much wiser men. What are they? Ground rent is a part of it - fines, fees; you are to make no alteration without somebody's consent. Who is that somebody? It is the agent of the landlord. A fee to him. You must submit the plans to the landlords architect and get his consent. There is a fee to him. There is a fee to the surveyor; and then, of course, you cannot keep the lawyer out - he always comes in. And a fee to him. Well, that is the system, and the landlords come to us in the House of Commons and they say: If you go on taxing reversions we will grant no more leases? Is not that horrible? No more leases! No more kindly landlords with all their retinue of good fairies - agents, surveyors, lawyers - ready always to receive ground rents, fees, premiums, fines, reversions - no more, never again! They will not do it. We cannot persuade them. They wont have it. The landlord has threatened us that if we proceed with the Budget he will take his sack clean away from the hopper, and the grain which we are all grinding our best to fill his sack will go into our own. Oh, I cannot believe it. There is a limit even to the wrath of outraged landlords. We must really appease them; we must offer up some sacrifice to them. Suppose we offer the House of Lords to them? Well, you seem rather to agree with that. I will make the suggestion to them. I say their day of reckoning is at hand." Lloyd George's plans to impose a land tax were foiled by the landowners in the House of Lords. A hundred years later the wealth of the great landowners has become even more obscene. The policy of both Labour and Tories has been to restrict housing supply and inflate land prices to the landowners' benefit. It's a gigantic conspiracy against the people of Britain and it's time to bring the whole edifice crashing down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 If only we could find a fairer system by which to govern our affairs, but the problem is that if you do find some reasonable socialist minded individual who could lead a party to bring about the changes that we might crave, we could establish a society where each gives in accordance with his means, and each receives in accordance with his needs. Where people would not be able to buy favour, and everyone would have the opportunity to fulfil their potential. The problem is that as soon as they sit down at their priministerial desk and see the potential for their future advancement they forget their promises and set about ensuring their future prosperity. Throughout the 20th century decent people supported groups who promised to establish such a state, but I can't think of one that came even close to achieving it, and those good people simply became serfs to a different master who at the start inherited nothing but took it all, and subsequently passed on their ill gotten gains to their nearest and dearest. I think that we should always try to improve our system and make it fairer, but if I had to chose between our flawed system or something like the Chinese system, I'd keep what we've got. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 I would imagine The Dukes tax affairs are all in order and all above board , if not Im sure we would have heard about it way before now ... Im sure all legal ways of paying as little inheritance tax as possible were looked at way before his death and put in place and if legal then surely no problem ... Good luck to the new king , I wish I was a penny behind him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 antony1969 - 2016-08-11 4:39 PM I would imagine The Dukes tax affairs are all in order and all above board , if not Im sure we would have heard about it way before now ... Im sure all legal ways of paying as little inheritance tax as possible were looked at way before his death and put in place and if legal then surely no problem ... Good luck to the new king , I wish I was a penny behind him I think the Smart products George Osborne was referring to are basically the Duke doesn't own property, he owns a foreign company that owns the property, thus avoiding taxes the little people have to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 John52 - 2016-08-11 5:31 PM antony1969 - 2016-08-11 4:39 PM I would imagine The Dukes tax affairs are all in order and all above board , if not Im sure we would have heard about it way before now ... Im sure all legal ways of paying as little inheritance tax as possible were looked at way before his death and put in place and if legal then surely no problem ... Good luck to the new king , I wish I was a penny behind him I think the Smart products George Osborne was referring to are basically the Duke doesn't own property, he owns a foreign company that owns the property, thus avoiding taxes the little people have to pay. Well done The Duke ... If its all legal and he can save on paying tax which is something those who can have done since the first forms of tax were put us then good on him ... Whats the problem ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 antony1969 - 2016-08-11 6:33 PM Well done The Duke ... If its all legal and he can save on paying tax which is something those who can have done since the first forms of tax were put us then good on him ... Whats the problem ??? The problem is that there soon won't be enough people on PAYE to keep the NHS going. ( Although we could always restrict free health care to those who don't systematically avoid paying tax ? ) ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 malc d - 2016-08-11 6:55 PM antony1969 - 2016-08-11 6:33 PM Well done The Duke ... If its all legal and he can save on paying tax which is something those who can have done since the first forms of tax were put us then good on him ... Whats the problem ??? The problem is that there soon won't be enough people on PAYE to keep the NHS going. ( Although we could always restrict free health care to those who don't systematically avoid paying tax ? ) ;-) Really ... So we punish those at the top further do we , those with wealth who create jobs and ultimately through doing so pay more into the pot ... We might do better restricting health care to those who have never paid a dime into the system ... Freeloaders / The worlds dregs that come here , sounds like a plan to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 antony1969 - 2016-08-11 7:36 PM Really ... So we punish those at the top further do we , those with wealth who create jobs and ultimately through doing so pay more into the pot ... We might do better restricting health care to those who have never paid a dime into the system ... Freeloaders / The worlds dregs that come here , sounds like a plan to me How is someone who inherits £10bn of property (via a foreign company to avoid the tax other people have to pay) and living off the rental income, creating jobs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 antony1969 - 2016-08-11 7:36 PM malc d - 2016-08-11 6:55 PM antony1969 - 2016-08-11 6:33 PM Well done The Duke ... If its all legal and he can save on paying tax which is something those who can have done since the first forms of tax were put us then good on him ... Whats the problem ??? The problem is that there soon won't be enough people on PAYE to keep the NHS going. ( Although we could always restrict free health care to those who don't systematically avoid paying tax ? ) ;-) Really ... So we punish those at the top further do we , those with wealth who create jobs and ultimately through doing so pay more into the pot ... We might do better restricting health care to those who have never paid a dime into the system ... Freeloaders / The worlds dregs that come here , sounds like a plan to me You both have a point ;-) ......... It seems we have a system where both ends have the benefits........suckered by those in the middle :-| ........... Progress eh? (lol) .............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 John52 - 2016-08-11 10:29 PM antony1969 - 2016-08-11 7:36 PM Really ... So we punish those at the top further do we , those with wealth who create jobs and ultimately through doing so pay more into the pot ... We might do better restricting health care to those who have never paid a dime into the system ... Freeloaders / The worlds dregs that come here , sounds like a plan to me How is someone who inherits £10bn of property (via a foreign company to avoid the tax other people have to pay) and living off the rental income, creating jobs? So he has no staff ... Runs everything on his own from his spare bedroom and runs around checking everything in an old transit van ... Busy fella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 antony1969 - 2016-08-11 7:36 PM malc d - 2016-08-11 6:55 PM antony1969 - 2016-08-11 6:33 PM Well done The Duke ... If its all legal and he can save on paying tax which is something those who can have done since the first forms of tax were put us then good on him ... Whats the problem ??? The problem is that there soon won't be enough people on PAYE to keep the NHS going. ( Although we could always restrict free health care to those who don't systematically avoid paying tax ? ) ;-) Really ... So we punish those at the top further do we , those with wealth who create jobs and ultimately through doing so pay more into the pot ... We might do better restricting health care to those who have never paid a dime into the system ... Freeloaders / The worlds dregs that come here , sounds like a plan to me I don't know who these " top people " are who are being " punished ". Paying tax is not a punishment, it's an obligation for those who wish to live in a civilized country. I see no difference between freeloaders who come here from other countries and those freeloaders who are born here. They all expect to be able to use the services that the rest are paying for - and probably complain the loudest when those services are not available. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 malc d - 2016-08-12 8:24 AM antony1969 - 2016-08-11 7:36 PM malc d - 2016-08-11 6:55 PM antony1969 - 2016-08-11 6:33 PM Well done The Duke ... If its all legal and he can save on paying tax which is something those who can have done since the first forms of tax were put us then good on him ... Whats the problem ??? The problem is that there soon won't be enough people on PAYE to keep the NHS going. ( Although we could always restrict free health care to those who don't systematically avoid paying tax ? ) ;-) Really ... So we punish those at the top further do we , those with wealth who create jobs and ultimately through doing so pay more into the pot ... We might do better restricting health care to those who have never paid a dime into the system ... Freeloaders / The worlds dregs that come here , sounds like a plan to me I don't know who these " top people " are who are being " punished ". Paying tax is not a punishment, it's an obligation for those who wish to live in a civilized country. I see no difference between freeloaders who come here from other countries and those freeloaders who are born here. They all expect to be able to use the services that the rest are paying for - and probably complain the loudest when those services are not available. :-| Paying tax is an obligation your right and if this fella has and is paying the tax he's obliged to pay by law then whats the problem ??? ... I don't see one do you ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 antony1969 - 2016-08-12 9:20 AM Paying tax is an obligation your right and if this fella has and is paying the tax he's obliged to pay by law then whats the problem ??? ... I don't see one do you ?? I've no idea what this blokes tax position is - that's why I didn't mention him. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 malc d - 2016-08-12 9:24 AM antony1969 - 2016-08-12 9:20 AM Paying tax is an obligation your right and if this fella has and is paying the tax he's obliged to pay by law then whats the problem ??? ... I don't see one do you ?? I've no idea what this blokes tax position is - that's why I didn't mention him. ;-) Well you don't know tha won't be enough folk paying PAYE soon to keep the NHS going either but it didn't stop ya making the comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 12, 2016 Author Share Posted August 12, 2016 antony1969 - 2016-08-12 6:33 AM John52 - 2016-08-11 10:29 PM antony1969 - 2016-08-11 7:36 PM Really ... So we punish those at the top further do we , those with wealth who create jobs and ultimately through doing so pay more into the pot ... We might do better restricting health care to those who have never paid a dime into the system ... Freeloaders / The worlds dregs that come here , sounds like a plan to me How is someone who inherits £10bn of property (via a foreign company to avoid the tax other people have to pay) and living off the rental income, creating jobs? So he has no staff ... Runs everything on his own from his spare bedroom and runs around checking everything in an old transit van ... Busy fella So if he didn't inherit £10bn of land and property tax free it would all disappear *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 John52 - 2016-08-12 9:45 AM antony1969 - 2016-08-12 6:33 AM John52 - 2016-08-11 10:29 PM antony1969 - 2016-08-11 7:36 PM Really ... So we punish those at the top further do we , those with wealth who create jobs and ultimately through doing so pay more into the pot ... We might do better restricting health care to those who have never paid a dime into the system ... Freeloaders / The worlds dregs that come here , sounds like a plan to me How is someone who inherits £10bn of property (via a foreign company to avoid the tax other people have to pay) and living off the rental income, creating jobs? So he has no staff ... Runs everything on his own from his spare bedroom and runs around checking everything in an old transit van ... Busy fella So if he didn't inherit £10bn of land and property tax free it would all disappear *-) Not tax free , he won't pay much inheritance tax but will pay every ten years after the formation of the trust fund I believe ?? He's only young and may end up paying quite a bit ... Maybe legal juggling may mean he pays less tax , if its all legal then whats the problem ??? I don't know your position but I assume if or when your parents died you'd be only too glad to give away a chunk of that estate in inheritance tax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 The Duke's property assets are likely to have been passed over to a Trust, so he no longer owns them personally, which is why inheritance tax will not apply when he dies. The Trust will benefit the Duke and his family but they will have to pay income tax on whatever they get. Likewise inheritance tax will apply to anything the Duke owns personally when he dies, which might still amount to quite a bit. There are always going to be people who want to rob the rich and give to the less rich (i.e. often themselves) but impoverishing each generation of property owners would see the end of what's left of our stately homes and lose them as places we can go and look around for the price of a ticket, like Chatsworth. All these properties will survive by virtue of being held by trusts these day and there is public benefit from allowing this. In the case of the Duke of Westminster the portfolio goes way beyond owning and perpetuating a stately home and its estate, so the public interest in allowing it to be kept intact and protected from inheritance tax for the benefit of a single family is obviously more uncertain and maybe their stately homes are not even open to the public anyway. But isn't there still some benefit to the public in having someone like a Duke of Westminster? The one who just died certainly lived a public service life as well as enjoying his family's wealth and the Queen needs to have some noble company/supporters o marry her offspring to - and I somehow felt pleasure/pride in having a noble Brit on the Stinking Rich List. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 12, 2016 Author Share Posted August 12, 2016 The slavish devotion to the upper class in England still confuses me. Nice enough chap it seems, but its nuts he can receive £10 billion in unearned income without paying tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted August 12, 2016 Author Share Posted August 12, 2016 StuartO - 2016-08-12 12:25 PMI somehow felt pleasure/pride in having a noble Brit on the Stinking Rich List. even when England has a record number of hospital admissions for malnutrition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 John52 - 2016-08-12 2:51 PMStuartO - 2016-08-12 12:25 PMI somehow felt pleasure/pride in having a noble Brit on the Stinking Rich List. even when England has a record number of hospital admissions for malnutrition?Ye don't we have a major obesity problem too in this country ... Too much money to spend on crap grub some folk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antony1969 Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 John52 - 2016-08-12 2:49 PM The slavish devotion to the upper class in England still confuses me. Nice enough chap it seems, but its nuts he can receive £10 billion in unearned income without paying tax. Chill out a little ... Don't let your obvious dislike of anything other than the working class upset your stomach ... Well save much more than his 'unpaid' tax once we've left that EU won't we ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 John52 - 2016-08-12 2:49 PMThe slavish devotion to the upper class in England still confuses me. Nice enough chap it seems, but its nuts he can receive £10 billion in unearned income without paying tax. Don't misrepresent the facts. He didn't get £10 billion in income, that's merely the value of the assets held by his family trust. He would have been liable for income tax on the benefits he did draw as personal benefits from the trust fund. His personal estate will pay inheritance tax on any personal wealth he had, just the same as anyone else. He did long service in the military reserves after giving up his military career to run the family business. He didn't have much choice about how to life his life; he had to do his duty and he did. I don't envy his lot one little bit. He did a lot for charity. He seems to have been a decent and dedicated bloke and he deserves credit for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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