Tax

[derek pringle]

hi all,

The problem as I see it is that any "loopholes' probably will be legal,the only way to stop this is change the system/rules. However when the rules are made by people wealthy enough to use any loopholes themselves it makes it harder to get any changes. As soon as any rules are made the rich have accountants scouring ways of circumventing them.

If I sound jealous there may be a reason ha

cheers

derek

[Guest pelmetman]

antony1969 - 2016-08-12 5:24 PM

John52 - 2016-08-12 2:51 PM

StuartO - 2016-08-12 12:25 PMI somehow felt pleasure/pride in having a noble Brit on the Stinking Rich List.

even when England has a record number of hospital admissions for malnutrition?

Ye don't we have a major obesity problem too in this country ... Too much money to spend on crap grub some folk

That must be why I've put on a bit of weight 8-) ........coz I haven't paid any income tax for years :D .......

[malc d]

antony1969 - 2016-08-12 9:30 AM

 

malc d - 2016-08-12 9:24 AM

 

antony1969 - 2016-08-12 9:20 AM

 

 

Paying tax is an obligation your right and if this fella has and is paying the tax he's obliged to pay by law then whats the problem ??? ... I don't see one do you ??

 

 

 

 

I've no idea what this blokes tax position is - that's why I didn't mention him.

 

;-)

 

 

Well you don't know tha won't be enough folk paying PAYE soon to keep the NHS going either but it didn't stop ya making the comment

 

 

I'm sure most people are aware that the NHS is short of money.

 

Recent rises in the tax threshold mean that over a million people are being taking out of paying tax.

 

It seems reasonable to me to assume that the money will have to come from somewhere else.

 

;-)

[globebuster]

Not enough Plumbers Mait - that's the problem

[antony1969]

malc d - 2016-08-13 10:34 AM

 

antony1969 - 2016-08-12 9:30 AM

 

malc d - 2016-08-12 9:24 AM

 

antony1969 - 2016-08-12 9:20 AM

 

 

Paying tax is an obligation your right and if this fella has and is paying the tax he's obliged to pay by law then whats the problem ??? ... I don't see one do you ??

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've no idea what this blokes tax position is - that's why I didn't mention him.

 

;-)

 

 

Well you don't know tha won't be enough folk paying PAYE soon to keep the NHS going either but it didn't stop ya making the comment

 

 

I'm sure most people are aware that the NHS is short of money.

 

Recent rises in the tax threshold mean that over a million people are being taking out of paying tax.

 

It seems reasonable to me to assume that the money will have to come from somewhere else.

 

;-)

 

Hasn't the NHS always been short of money and will continue to be so forever probably

Tax , don't our lords and masters rob Peter to pay Paul ... One person wins another loses , I'm sure that will be the case to fund the NHS ... Can't see that reductions in PAYE contributions will be the main contributing fact in the NHS not able to keep going though

[Guest pelmetman]

malc d - 2016-08-13 10:34 AM

 

antony1969 - 2016-08-12 9:30 AM

 

malc d - 2016-08-12 9:24 AM

 

antony1969 - 2016-08-12 9:20 AM

 

 

Paying tax is an obligation your right and if this fella has and is paying the tax he's obliged to pay by law then whats the problem ??? ... I don't see one do you ??

 

 

 

 

I've no idea what this blokes tax position is - that's why I didn't mention him.

 

;-)

 

 

Well you don't know tha won't be enough folk paying PAYE soon to keep the NHS going either but it didn't stop ya making the comment

 

 

I'm sure most people are aware that the NHS is short of money.

 

Recent rises in the tax threshold mean that over a million people are being taking out of paying tax.

 

It seems reasonable to me to assume that the money will have to come from somewhere else.

 

;-)

 

If they stopped trying to be an International health service....... and just looked after the those that pay their wages then they probably wouldn't be in such a mess ;-) .........

 

Just to add a bit more fuel to the fire......I wonder how much of the NHS budget is spent on legal fees now days? :-| .........

 

 

[antony1969]

pelmetman - 2016-08-13 2:52 PM

 

malc d - 2016-08-13 10:34 AM

 

antony1969 - 2016-08-12 9:30 AM

 

malc d - 2016-08-12 9:24 AM

 

antony1969 - 2016-08-12 9:20 AM

 

 

Paying tax is an obligation your right and if this fella has and is paying the tax he's obliged to pay by law then whats the problem ??? ... I don't see one do you ??

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've no idea what this blokes tax position is - that's why I didn't mention him.

 

;-)

 

 

Well you don't know tha won't be enough folk paying PAYE soon to keep the NHS going either but it didn't stop ya making the comment

 

 

I'm sure most people are aware that the NHS is short of money.

 

Recent rises in the tax threshold mean that over a million people are being taking out of paying tax.

 

It seems reasonable to me to assume that the money will have to come from somewhere else.

 

;-)

 

If they stopped trying to be an International health service....... and just looked after the those that pay their wages then they probably wouldn't be in such a mess ;-) .........

 

Just to add a bit more fuel to the fire......I wonder how much of the NHS budget is spent on legal fees now days? :-| .........

 

 

Well just to also let Malc know why the NHS has no money

I know someone close to me that works for the NHS , that person got overpaid one month by nearly £3000 pounds ... They immediately tried to get the money returned and eventually because of the farce it turned into in trying to return the money kept a log of the calls and emails sent to accounts in trying to sort out the over payment , it wasn't a straight forward repayment as maternity leave came into it too ... The payment was last year and she long since gave up dealing with accounts after being told by a colleague who was overpaid £5000 to forget it and keep the money , that is exactly what she intends to do and it sits in her account still

The reason the NHS is in such a mess is because it's not run like a real accountable business ... Too many people in too many not needed positions answering to no one ... Imagine an accounts department in the real business world run like the one I mention

[StuartO]

I was chatting to a management accountant who ran payroll systems for large companies and asked him how many payroll staff he would need to run a payroll for a 3000 employee company using modern methods and software and he replied one or two at most.  My local NHS Trust had 3,000 staff of whom there were 27 payroll staff.

 

I met a PR lady (i.e. an outsider working in the NHS) who had worked for an NHS Trust and told me that in her experience NHS managers don't really try to make things happen or pursue an organisational "mission" or a management goal in a personal way, preferring instead to guard the spending mechanisms, leave it to subordinates to make supplications for spending permission, which they would then delay dealing with for as long as possible, never saying no but never quite saying yes either.

 

[malc d]

StuartO - 2016-08-14 9:16 AM

 

I was chatting to a management accountant who ran payroll systems for large companies and asked him how many payroll staff he would need to run a payroll for a 3000 employee company using modern methods and software and he replied one or two at most.  My local NHS Trust had 3,000 staff of whom there were 27 payroll staff.

 

 

 

 

But there is the problem. I doubt if the NHS is using " modern methods and software ".

 

........... and if they did introduce a new system can you just imagine what a c*ck -up that would be !

 

( Cheaper to employ more staff ?? ).

 

;-)

[John52]

Yes of course there are inefficiencies in the NHS.

But is that a reason to tax the poor to pay for it, instead of the uber-rich?

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2016-08-14 1:50 PM

 

Yes of course there are inefficiencies in the NHS.

But is that a reason to tax the poor to pay for it, instead of the uber-rich?

 

How are the poor being taxed?.....Who are these so called poor? :-S ..........

 

We can earn over 20k as a couple tax free ;-) .........how much do you need? :-| ..........

 

 

[StuartO]

John52 - 2016-08-14 1:50 PMYes of course there are inefficiencies in the NHS.But is that a reason to tax the poor to pay for it, instead of the uber-rich?

Is that the "poor" who receive housing benefits, relief from council tax, all sorts of other personal and family benefits, also have access to a wide variety of charity support - and don't work because they do drugs and because of our welfare system have never actually needed to work?

 

[John52]

pelmetman - 2016-08-14 2:32 PM

 

John52 - 2016-08-14 1:50 PM

 

Yes of course there are inefficiencies in the NHS.

But is that a reason to tax the poor to pay for it, instead of the uber-rich?

 

How are the poor being taxed?.....Who are these so called poor? :-S ..........

 

We can earn over 20k as a couple tax free ;-) .........how much do you need? :-| ..........

 

 

Don't you pay VAT then *-)

[John52]

StuartO - 2016-08-14 3:24 PM

John52 - 2016-08-14 1:50 PMYes of course there are inefficiencies in the NHS.But is that a reason to tax the poor to pay for it, instead of the uber-rich?

Is that the "poor" who receive housing benefits, relief from council tax, all sorts of other personal and family benefits, also have access to a wide variety of charity support - and don't work because they do drugs and because of our welfare system have never actually needed to work?

Why are you picking the worst example you can think of in an effort to justify someone receiving a £10billion unearned windfall free of tax?

[Tracker]

John52 - 2016-08-14 4:11 PM

 

Yes of course there are inefficiencies in the NHS.But is that a reason to tax the poor to pay for it, instead of the uber-rich?

 

Why are you picking the worst example you can think of in an effort to justify someone receiving a £10billion unearned windfall free of tax?

 

Probably necause that is the direct opposite of what you are doing to justify your argument?

 

Why tax the 'uber rich' as you refer to them, who possibly never use the public side of the NHS, to subsidise those who do use it?

 

We are a wealthy country and can well afford a decent NHS - much more than we can afford to subsidise the 'poor' whilst chasing the unattainable but politically very nice sounding 'abolition of poverty'.

 

I have not worked full time in 15 years but neither did I take a penny in benefit prior to my state pension - for which I paid the full price - whilst I continued to pay umpteen forms of taxation.

 

I for one resent the sheer volume of benefit handed out to all comers that Gordon Brown and his oiks imposed on the rest of us without asking in his rush to secure more votes for himself.

 

And if I've got that all wrong - it don't bloomin feel like it at times!

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2016-08-14 4:09 PM

 

pelmetman - 2016-08-14 2:32 PM

 

John52 - 2016-08-14 1:50 PM

 

Yes of course there are inefficiencies in the NHS.

But is that a reason to tax the poor to pay for it, instead of the uber-rich?

 

How are the poor being taxed?.....Who are these so called poor? :-S ..........

 

We can earn over 20k as a couple tax free ;-) .........how much do you need? :-| ..........

 

 

Don't you pay VAT then *-)

 

Is VAT charged on the essentials?.........Unless you think fags booze and wide screen tv's are essentials? *-) ..........

 

I've no problem with people sitting on their backsides as a lifestyle choice......providing they fund it :-| .....

 

 

[StuartO]

John52 - 2016-08-14 4:11 PM

StuartO - 2016-08-14 3:24 PM

John52 - 2016-08-14 1:50 PMYes of course there are inefficiencies in the NHS.But is that a reason to tax the poor to pay for it, instead of the uber-rich?

Is that the "poor" who receive housing benefits, relief from council tax, all sorts of other personal and family benefits, also have access to a wide variety of charity support - and don't work because they do drugs and because of our welfare system have never actually needed to work?

Why are you picking the worst example you can think of in an effort to justify someone receiving a £10billion unearned windfall free of tax?

But he hasn't received a £10 billion unearned windfall free of tax, can't you see that?  It was his family's wealth, probably accumulated over a long period of time, and the family trust is merely a way of avoiding paying more tax than the law says they have to pay.  Isn't that what you do with your assets and income, claim the allowances you are entitled to and so on?  Clearly there is a difference in scale but not in principle surely?

These big noble fortunes were often made largely from the profits of slavery hundreds of years ago (the Duke of Devonshire's certainly was) but that's another issue.  In recent times they have at least been paying such taxes as they could not avoid.

 

[John52]

Tracker - 2016-08-14 4:24 PM

 

I for one resent the sheer volume of benefit

 

Well yes I don't mind the unemployed getting REASONABLE benefits. But the Royal Family are just taking the p*ss (!)

[John52]

StuartO - 2016-08-14 5:25 PM

John52 - 2016-08-14 4:11 PM

StuartO - 2016-08-14 3:24 PM

John52 - 2016-08-14 1:50 PMYes of course there are inefficiencies in the NHS.But is that a reason to tax the poor to pay for it, instead of the uber-rich?

Is that the "poor" who receive housing benefits, relief from council tax, all sorts of other personal and family benefits, also have access to a wide variety of charity support - and don't work because they do drugs and because of our welfare system have never actually needed to work?

Why are you picking the worst example you can think of in an effort to justify someone receiving a £10billion unearned windfall free of tax?

But he hasn't received a £10 billion unearned windfall free of tax, can't you see that?  It was his family's wealth, probably accumulated over a long period of time, and the family trust is merely a way of avoiding paying more tax than the law says they have to pay.  Isn't that what you do with your assets and income, claim the allowances you are entitled to and so on?  Clearly there is a difference in scale but not in principle surely?

These big noble fortunes were often made largely from the profits of slavery hundreds of years ago (the Duke of Devonshire's certainly was) but that's another issue.  In recent times they have at least been paying such taxes as they could not avoid.

Actually they got their fortune about 600 years ago when an ancestor married a 12 year old girl,and with her came a dowry of several hundred acres of Mayfair. Worthless swamp at the time, but successive Governments have concentrated wealth in London to make it worth what it is today. They have been able to avoid inheritance tax by paying expensive accountants to set up offshore trusts - the costs of doing this are beyond those of modest means who pay inheritance tax.If the Duke employed a servant and paid him £500k for a lifetime's work, he would have to pay tax on it. Wheras if he gave him £10bn - thats TWENTY THOUSAND TIMES WHAT SOME PEOPLE GET FOR A LIFETIMES WORK as an unearned inheritance, he pays no tax. And you think thats fair????

[John52]

pelmetman - 2016-08-14 4:37 PM

 

Is VAT charged on the essentials?......

 

Successive Governments have reduced income tax and replaced it with stealth taxes instead. Income tax is directed towards the better off, wheras stealth taxes are not.

So stealth taxes hit the poor the hardest.

People who sleep on the street in cardboard boxes pay VAT (on takeaway food)

[John52]

I have worked all my life and mostly enjoyed it. So I consider myself very fortunate because many are not able to work.

We are all just a car accident away from being disabled for life.

[globebuster]

Blimey John!

 

You're starting to sound like an ex-forum member - he was obsessed with the Royal Family .............

.........and Plumbers Mait!.

 

What was his name?.......Ahh yes, I remember - Peter James I think, I believe he got banned.

Mind you, he had some strange habits as well if I recall.

[antony1969]

StuartO - 2016-08-14 9:16 AMI was chatting to a management accountant who ran payroll systems for large companies and asked him how many payroll staff he would need to run a payroll for a 3000 employee company using modern methods and software and he replied one or two at most.  My local NHS Trust had 3,000 staff of whom there were 27 payroll staff.

 

I met a PR lady (i.e. an outsider working in the NHS) who had worked for an NHS Trust and told me that in her experience NHS managers don't really try to make things happen or pursue an organisational "mission" or a management goal in a personal way, preferring instead to guard the spending mechanisms, leave it to subordinates to make supplications for spending permission, which they would then delay dealing with for as long as possible, never saying no but never quite saying yes either.

Been out for day with the person who received the NHS over payment I mentioned Turns out I got it wrong , also in her department another member of staff had a 15 Grand overpayment which was never returned and her manager received an overpayment that she admits went a long way to building an extension on her home without giving the exact amount ... Those cases just in a small department ... Disgraceful but not a surprise ... I could also tell a story of a hospital worker I know who sells computers and hospital furniture on the knock as a little side line

[antony1969]

John52 - 2016-08-14 9:26 PM

 

pelmetman - 2016-08-14 4:37 PM

 

Is VAT charged on the essentials?......

 

Successive Governments have reduced income tax and replaced it with stealth taxes instead. Income tax is directed towards the better off, wheras stealth taxes are not.

So stealth taxes hit the poor the hardest.

People who sleep on the street in cardboard boxes pay VAT (on takeaway food)

 

Ye they also can afford to drink a lot more booze than me lucky sods

[Guest pelmetman]

John52 - 2016-08-14 9:26 PM

 

pelmetman - 2016-08-14 4:37 PM

 

Is VAT charged on the essentials?......

 

Successive Governments have reduced income tax and replaced it with stealth taxes instead. Income tax is directed towards the better off, wheras stealth taxes are not.

So stealth taxes hit the poor the hardest.

People who sleep on the street in cardboard boxes pay VAT (on takeaway food)

 

Remind me how much is the VAT on cannabis, Meth or a bit of cocaine now days? ;-) .........

 

Call me old fashioned, but as I see it your hard done by poor, are usually idle feckless workshy waste of space folk, who have no intention of getting a job :-| ........

 

Every penny they receive in benefits in my view is a penny wasted *-) ........as you can see I don't do tea and sympathy

 

:D ...........