Bailey's ongoing fault

[henrypartridge]

I've been reading about the new improved Bailey Autographs. I can't believe they're persisting with the silly Whale fresh water system. You have to use a hose with a special coupling or an optional extra pump from aqua roll etc. If you want to top up with, say, a watering can, you have to lift a trapdoor INSIDE the van. When I had a Bailey it drove me mad and I'd never have another till they provide a simple filler cap in the side of the van. Improved and redesigned my backside.

[Tracker]

We had a similar set up on our Executive and as you say heaven alone knows what the designers were thinking when they fitted that abomination.

 

My work around was to remove the blue blue block connector from the daft flat hose that you had to unroll all the way to get any flow so I could attach it to a normal tap via a normal hose.

 

Whilst I had it apart I also took out the non return valve which is not needed for this use and that too helps increase flow by reducing obstruction.

 

I removed two more obstructing non return valves from inside the van and disconnected any 12 volt cables that might or might not have contributed to the reduced flow and the result was an acceptable flow rate and an ease of connection and filling via a normal tap and I was happy with the result.

 

It's not as good or as simple as the old fashioned hole in the wall filler but it cost nothing to do and it is good enough to get a proper fill without taking forever.

 

 

[Steve928]

henrypartridge - 2016-10-08 3:58 PM

 

I've been reading about the new improved Bailey Autographs. I can't believe they're persisting with the silly Whale fresh water system. You have to use a hose with a special coupling or an optional extra pump from aqua roll etc. If you want to top up with, say, a watering can, you have to lift a trapdoor INSIDE the van. When I had a Bailey it drove me mad and I'd never have another till they provide a simple filler cap in the side of the van. Improved and redesigned my backside.

 

Your thread title refers to a fault yet you haven't mentioned a fault, rather a feature that you don't like. Perhaps in fairness to Bailey you should reword the title..

 

I really like the Whale filler system and enjoy using it and keeping my feet dry. I don't carry a watering can (I leave that at home in the greenhouse) but on the rare occasions that I need to put in water from a jerrycan then again I like the access that Bailey have provided; pop up the hatch, unscrew the tank 'lid' and pour. It works really well and is fast too.

[Brock]

I tend to fill my Hymer through the trapdoor in the van although I do have a food grade hose. I would never buy a van with the Whale type of filler, or one that needs an aquaroll or a wastemaster, or one that has a piddly waste tap [unless the waste tank was small].

[Rayjsj]

As Steve says, it isnt a fault, but a poor design feature, it allows them to have only low pressure connections inside the van, but I think it is a mistake. I used to have an Autocruise which had a Truma crystal 2 caravan pump type of filling system, i managed to get around it by simply putting a Truma connection fitting on the end of an ordinary filling hose, which worked for me, just needed to make sure all of the jubilee clips on the pipework towards the tank were tight. However I understand that the Whale system is a bit differant, the blue block has pressure reducing gubbins added, non return valves etc., which would all need to be removed, to use a filling hose at mains pressure. All totally unneccessary IMHO. Bailey must have shares in Whale and Hitchman (makers of Aquarolls). Not all Motorhomers like the caravanners way of doing things.....in fact most dont.

They should at least offer the option of a standard filler cap, or fit one as standard, as Autosleeper did, as well as the unneccessary Whale.

[Keith T]

Surely Bailey (and other manufacturers who seem to only offer this system now) must be aware of the differences is lifestyle between Caravan and Motorhomes.

 

As motorhomers we can carry (or fill up on site) to around 100 litres of fresh water, which keeps up going for several days, then I have a jerrycan of 10 litres, to top up with, through the usual, external, filler . Or if I wish I can top up direct into the tank internally through the large removable cap on the top of the tank.

 

We are currently looking to change our MH, and this is another of the things I will need to look at.

The other one seemingly coming to the fore is the type of Fridge, and for my purposes, I will only go for a MH which uses the standard Mains, Battery on move, or Gas power.

 

It does seem that many designers (what are they!!) or manufacturers are less concerned about the ease of use than something which undoubtedly costs more and is simply not needed.

[Steve928]

Rayjsj - 2016-10-09 9:36 AM

 

it allows them to have only low pressure connections inside the van, but I think it is a mistake..

 

I'm unsure what you mean by that, Ray?

The distribution side of the water system is like any other motorhome's pressurised water system and is maintained at c. 15psi by the pressure pump, with all plumbing in bog-standard JohnGuest Speedfit.

The fill side between the Whale wall point and the tank is also JG Speedfit and will take whatever mains pressure you plug into it.

[rolandrat]

There's a very simple remedy, if you don't like it don't buy it. Most things regarding the leisure industry is a compromise.

[Tracker]

rolandrat - 2016-10-11 11:07 AM

 

There's a very simple remedy, if you don't like it don't buy it. Most things regarding the leisure industry is a compromise.

 

Err not quite - if you like it other than issues you can fix yourself - or pay someone else to fix - buy it and fix it - all vans are a compromise somewhere for someone!

[bertieburstner]

as others have said, it's not a fault. Our Bailey has this system and at first I did not want it, having had 4 previous motorhomes with "normal" filling systems.

 

I now love the system. We have a garage and I put an aquaroll in there if we are any distance from a tap.

 

It's alot easier than traipsing around a heavy roll of hose.

 

BTW we use quite alot of water (we normally cycle so have two showers each a day (lol) (lol) ) so the "watering can" method would not work for us.

 

Each to their own!!

[QFour]

Cannot see whats wrong with the large filler hole in the side. It works for everyone. Bailey seem to think that a MH is a caravan and as such you need to drag round and STORE an aquaroll as part of your kit. Do these designers ever get out in the real world and see how people use MH's. We don't all use camp sites and some of us fill up with water from a variety of taps in some very strange locations.

[Solwaybuggier]

QFour - 2016-10-12 10:36 PM

 

Cannot see whats wrong with the large filler hole in the side. It works for everyone. Bailey seem to think that a MH is a caravan and as such you need to drag round and STORE an aquaroll as part of your kit. Do these designers ever get out in the real world and see how people use MH's. We don't all use camp sites and some of us fill up with water from a variety of taps in some very strange locations.

 

Wrong - you don't have to use an Aquaroll at all. We take (and occasionally use) a smaller Fiamma roll tank but generally fill up with the hosepipe on our Bailey Approach SE, which came with the Whale pump as standard - I believe it's now an extra.

 

I don't like the water filling system but you get used to it.

[QFour]

Solwaybuggier - 2016-10-13 7:26 AM

 

QFour - 2016-10-12 10:36 PM

 

Cannot see whats wrong with the large filler hole in the side. It works for everyone. Bailey seem to think that a MH is a caravan and as such you need to drag round and STORE an aquaroll as part of your kit. Do these designers ever get out in the real world and see how people use MH's. We don't all use camp sites and some of us fill up with water from a variety of taps in some very strange locations.

 

Wrong - you don't have to use an Aquaroll at all. We take (and occasionally use) a smaller Fiamma roll tank but generally fill up with the hosepipe on our Bailey Approach SE, which came with the Whale pump as standard - I believe it's now an extra.

 

I don't like the water filling system but you get used to it.

 

I suppose the point I was trying to make was .. Do the people who design these systems ever get out of the office and try them in the real world or do they just head for the nearest campsite.

[Tracker]

When you are charging eye watering sums of money for a product it surely pays to make it appeal to as many buyers as possible and the loss of profit from one lost sale might well be less that than having the option to include both kinds of filler from new, even at a cost option - as long as the dealers are savvy enough to understand how vans, especially those without vast stotrage ares - will be used?

 

Silly me, there I go again, thinking that common sense might apply!!

[Derek Uzzell]

Keith T - 2016-10-09 12:45 PM

 

Surely Bailey (and other manufacturers who seem to only offer this system now) must be aware of the differences is lifestyle between Caravan and Motorhomes...

 

 

Historically Bailey has concentrated on caravan manufacture, only moving to motorhome production relatively recenty.

 

Although there may be a significant difference in usage between caravanning and motorcaravanning abroad, I believe that’s much less true for the UK. As far as I can see many UK owners of motorhomes confine themselves to touring in the UK and rallying, where staying on caravan sites for several days is the norm. Essentially, these people treat their motorhome as if it were a caravan.

 

I don’t know how many people buy a motorhome without first going through the caravan ownership phase first, but if you’ve had a caravan and become used to the Whale/Aquaroll approach to fresh-water replenishment, you’ll probably be very happy if you find that your new Bailey motorhome has the same familiar water system as your previous (Bailey?) caravan.

 

It’s generally a lot easier and cheaper to drill a big hole in motorhome’s bodywork and lead a large-bore hose to the fresh-water tank, than to install the Whale system, but Bailey don’t do this despite moaning from some Bailey motorhome owners and negative comments in Press reviews. The conclusion must be that Bailey persists with the Whale water-filling system because the company believes it will be more attractive to potential Bailey motorhome buyers than the hole-in-the-side system.

 

I don’t want the Whale system, but I’m never going to buy a Bailey motorhome. However, I can well believe that, if a Bailey motorhome is to be used by an ex-caravanner and predominantly for campsiting/rallying in the UK, the Whale system could be a valuable selling-point.

[Steve928]

I think that the use by Bailey of the Whale filler system has less to do with their heritage as a caravan builder but more to do with the advantages that it offers their design and production teams. With only a single flexible 12mm pipe going to the water tank they are free to site the tank wherever they wish without regard to the location of furniture units, cookers, fridges and the like that may normally constrain designers working around a large diameter gravity-fed filler arangement. The vast majority of Bailey purchasers will tell you that it was the internal space and layout that layout that attracted them to the van and with the Whale system that element of the design and build isn't comprimised, plus the tank can be situated where the designers would like it in terms of weight distribution and balance.

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

UK motorhome manufacturers commonly site the fresh-water tank beneath the vehicle’s floor and it will undoubtedly be the case that the Whale system with its narrow-bore flexible filler-hose will (as you rightly say) facilitate where the tank can be located. Once the fresh-water tank is brought inboard and sited under a seat or beneath a bed, installing a wide-bore filler-hose should be less of a problem.

 

Siting the water-tank externally will maximise internal space and lower the vehicle’s CofG - the downside being that vulnerability to freezing conditions increases. Conversely siting the tank internally will reduce storage space and raise the CofG, but the tank is better insulated.

 

I still think this is primarily a ‘UK caravan mentality’ choice by Bailey however, simply because (to the best of my knowledge) no Continental-European motorhome builder chooses the Whale system (nor the Truma equivalent) for their products, although the Truma system is found in caravans abroad.

 

If fitting the Whale system to Bailey motorhomes was negatively affecting the company’s sales figures and hoards of people were contacting Bailey saying “We would buy one of your motorhomes except they all have this loathsome Whale water-filling system” I’m sure Bailey would soon change to the hole-in-the-side approach. But although some people (like the Original Poster) say they dislike the Whale system enough to stop them buying a motorhome having it, others tolerate the system or even like it.

 

 

[Tracker]

If one converter is using a system that nobody else in the whole of Europe is using does that not send a clue?

 

Maybe Bailey have bought or agreed to buy too many Whale systems not to use them?

 

It did not stop me buying our Executive which was otherwise ideal but used the same water filling system as I found it easy to modify the filler to work as I wanted it to work.

 

I am not in the market for a Bailey but has anyone who is asked them for a comment to try and get a balanced view?

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Tracker - 2016-10-13 2:47 PM

 

If one converter is using a system that nobody else in the whole of Europe is using does that not send a clue?...

 

 

What I actually said was that (as far as I was aware) no non-UK manufacturer fitted the Whale/Truma type of water-filling arrangement to MOTORHOMES. This type of system is commonly fitted to caravans (which is why Truma find a market for it) but only UK motorhome builders have seemingly chosen to use it for motorhomes.

 

It’s clearly a deliberate business decision on Bailey’s part to fit the Whale system to their motorhomes and I can’t see any obvious benefit in asking them why they choose to do this.

 

Much more useful would be to interrogate Bailey about the TPMS system fitted to their Boxer-based motorhomes and how this system is (or is not) matched to the tyre pressures Bailey recommends.

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/More-TPMS-fun-games/43610/

 

[Colin Leake]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-10-13 2:14 PM

 

UK motorhome manufacturers commonly site the fresh-water tank beneath the vehicle’s floor and it will undoubtedly be the case that the Whale system with its narrow-bore flexible filler-hose will (as you rightly say) facilitate where the tank can be located. Once the fresh-water tank is brought inboard and sited under a seat or beneath a bed, installing a wide-bore filler-hose should be less of a problem.

 

Siting the water-tank externally will maximise internal space and lower the vehicle’s CofG - the downside being that vulnerability to freezing conditions increases. Conversely siting the tank internally will reduce storage space and raise the CofG, but the tank is better insulated.

 

I still think this is primarily a ‘UK caravan mentality’ choice by Bailey however, simply because (to the best of my knowledge) no Continental-European motorhome builder chooses the Whale system (nor the Truma equivalent) for their products, although the Truma system is found in caravans abroad.

 

If fitting the Whale system to Bailey motorhomes was negatively affecting the company’s sales figures and hoards of people were contacting Bailey saying “We would buy one of your motorhomes except they all have this loathsome Whale water-filling system” I’m sure Bailey would soon change to the hole-in-the-side approach. But although some people (like the Original Poster) say they dislike the Whale system enough to stop them buying a motorhome having it, others tolerate the system or even like it.

 

 

I rather suspect most buyers are not even awear what system is fitted and don't appreciate the problems and limitations untill they use it and or talk to other motorhome owners. I've certainly come across some who are less than happy with it.

[Derek Uzzell]

A Brownhills salesman once told me that three things ‘sold' a motorhome - layout, layout and layout. It should also be evident from past forum postings that many experienced motorcaravanners who have owned a particular motorhome for years can still lack a basic understanding of the vehicle’s technical aspects.

 

This mid-2015 forum thread discussed Auto-Sleepers’s use of Whale’s ‘daft’ water-filling system, but it also mentioned Bailey motorhomes

 

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Autosleepers-water-filling-system/38931/

 

I can understand people wishing to fill their motorhome’s fresh-water tank from an external container via a 12V submersible pump. I recall seeing a UK motorcaravanner doing this on a French campsite and the motorhome (a UK-built vehicle) had the standard hole-in-the-side filling-point, but with an adjacent 12V socket that the pump could be plugged into. Although this arrangement was not as versatile as the Whale system, it did allow fast tank-filling via a hose, plus watering-can and ‘Aquaroll’ filling.

[Steve928]

Derek Uzzell - 2016-10-15 8:21 AM

I recall seeing a UK motorcaravanner doing this on a French campsite and the motorhome (a UK-built vehicle) had the standard hole-in-the-side filling-point, but with an adjacent 12V socket that the pump could be plugged into.

 

That could easily have been me as that is how I used to top up the tank on my previous vans. The Whale version of this combines the hose and power cable into one and has the electrical contacts for the pump within the wall socket itself so is very easy to use; just push the plug into the wall socket and the pump starts, pull it out and it stops.

 

From what I've been able ascertain the Bailey and Autosleepers implementations of the Whale system differ somewhat. While Autosleeper have opted for the 'fully bonkers' version with tank level-controlled solenoid valve opening and closing the flow to the tank and also restricting that flow somewhat, Bailey's is nothing more than a 'slightly daft' plug and socket arrangement replacing the more usual hose and (e.g.) Zadi filler. There are no keys and no filler cap to leave behind which could even be considered an advantage.

 

As one of the oft-repeated criticisms of the system is the inability to top up with a watering can I thought I'd look at this and in fact it is easily done, on Bailey's implementation at least. All it needs is a short piece of flexible hose that is pushed over and onto the spigot within the wall socket. The spout of the watering can is pushed into the other end of the hose - I'm sure that larger spout diameters could be accomodated by stepping-up the hose size. Then you just pour away and hey presto you can top up with a watering can too. A similar length of hose with a funnel on the end would likely allow topping-up from all manner of containers.