Smudge345 Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 Hi Everyone I'm looking for some advice if anyone can help , at the moment i don't have a motorhome but i'm to purchase one in around 18 months , my plan is to either purchase one in Portugal or the UK , the reason for this is i have an Apartment in the Algarve which is always going to be my end point for ex amount of months. i'm favouring buying one in the UK because of the language etc and possible ease for repairs , parts etc but how long can a UK registered MH be out of the UK and would insurance be an issue , chances are we'll be touring most of the time in Portugal , Spain and France and maybe even further but always returning to the apartment in the Algarve. The other idea is to purchase one in Portugal and store it there , but my other thought is , what if i want to come back and tour around the UK , how long can i be away from Portugal with the MH and is insurance is an issue with this as well , most of the 2nd hand MH i've been looking at in Portugal have some weird configuration with bunk beds etc and really all we want is a back end lounge. Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated but i guess i have a lot of time to mull over what i do. TIA Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaggy Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 I'm sure will get some more specific advise than mine, but this imy understanding. You can buy policies in the uk for touring for 365 days a year as long as you have a permanent uk address to register you motorhome to. The problem will arise that if you keep your motorhome in any country for more than 6 months In any one year you are required to register it in that country to remain legal. Also some countries are I believe adverse to registering a RHD drive vehicle. So I would suggest that, if you are storing it in Portugal when not in use, you are better buying there. I hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboyprowler Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 We are in Spain with a similar problem. As said the theoretical maximum time that the vehicle can be in another EU country is 6 months, beit all at once or in bits. In Spain, if a non resident buys a van then all local laws apply. All vehicles have to be legal in the country of registration. We chose to buy a UK registered van as the paperwork is so much easier. Ours is RHD, which is really no problem, and we store it at a local industrial site. Problems, having to return to the UK for MOT, but insurance and tax is no problem. Tax is cheaper in Spain, as are repairs, but insurance is more expensive, and the paperwork can be a nightmare. However, can't speak for Portugal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 If it is UK registered, it must be UK tested, taxed, and insured to be legal. If Portuguese registered, then tested, taxed, and insured in Portugal. Wherever the vehicle is registered, if it is out of that country for more than 6 months it is deemed exported. The only way that could be proved with a UK registered vehicle is a comparison of outbound and home bound ferry/shuttle ticket records. As the EU internal land borders are open, there seems no realistic chance that anyone could tell when you left, or returned to, any given country. Credit card spending records or mobile phone usage would indicate where you were, but not whether you had travelled in your van. The legislation seems, in practical terms, unworkable. It is really a matter of which language you would prefer to argue in! :-) Rear lounges are very much a British preference. Most continental motorhomers do not spend lengthy periods sitting around in their vans, and prefer fixed beds with forward dinettes for seating/eating. To get the rear lounge you would almost certainly have to buy a British made van, which would almost certainly have to be RHD and UK registered. By all accounts, it is far more difficult to get a RHD van re-registered abroad, than to get a LHD van re-registered in UK (which is actually quite straightforward). In terms of driving, LHD in left hand traffic and RHD in right hand traffic is not a major problem as the sitting position is relatively high so one looks over the average car. The main problem arises with overtaking. On dual carriageways, with well adjusted mirrors, it is fine. On two way roads it is problematic if the driver is on the nearside. With a van, one has to pull much further out to see ahead of a truck or whatever than would be the case with a car, which is the moment of maximum risk. This is a bit academic in UK, due to our traffic volumes and (generally) narrower roads. Once across the ditch, however, especially when on their secondary roads - which are generally wider and much quieter than in UK - overtaking is easily possible if one can see ahead. So, under those circumstances (and at some of their more "eccentric" road junctions), LHD has a considerable advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudge345 Posted November 29, 2016 Author Share Posted November 29, 2016 Hi Everyone Thanks for your comments/feedback - it's all very helpful , my preference would be to buy here but we're just not sure how long we'll be staying in the Algarve , it's all going to be a huge trial the first year as we plan to rent out our house in the UK to part fund what we want to do so potentially we could be out the UK for 12 months or more which makes me think should we buy in Portugal and store it there when not in use , i think our end point will always be our apartment in the Algarve but i would never right touring in the UK as well , i guess it's a nice problem to have but we just need to make the correct decision. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinM50 Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Some good advice here but I'd just add a couple of points. Firstly the MoT issue only arises with a M/H over three years old. So if you buy brand new you've got three years to work out that you bought the wrong configuration and your second brand new van will be a different layout. : :-) So you could keep it in Portugal/Europe for 3 years before needing an MoT Secondly, having run a HR function for six years in France up to 2010 with 400 UK employees I know a little about this. After much searching we found a couple of insurance brokers who were quite happy to insure a UK vehicle WITHOUT the need for the car to have UK car tax on it. Can't remember the brokers details, but one of them was in Cardiff and might have been called Brian James (??) but not 100% sure on that point. A bit of digging will find a broker who can offer this sort of policy. Only negative thought on the no road tax ruse, is if you do come back to UK you have to make sure you get UK road tax before you get back here. What with all the ANPR cameras, esp around the channel ports, you will get caught and chances then are they might confiscate the M/H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 ColinM50 - 2016-11-29 10:39 AM Secondly, having run a HR function for six years in France up to 2010 with 400 UK employees I know a little about this. After much searching we found a couple of insurance brokers who were quite happy to insure a UK vehicle WITHOUT the need for the car to have UK car tax on it. Colin, This may well have applied in 2010 but is no longer the case. If a vehicle is not taxed then it must be declared SORN and can only be SORN'ed if it is actually in the UK. "Your vehicle must stay in the UK for your SORN to be valid." https://www.gov.uk/sorn-statutory-off-road-notification/overview And if your vehicle is out of the UK for over 12 months it must be 'Permanently exported' https://www.gov.uk/taking-vehicles-out-of-uk Finally, as you did say, you cannot drive a vehicle back into the UK which is not taxed. https://www.gov.uk/taking-vehicles-out-of-uk/for-less-than-12-months So the long and short is your vehicle MUST remain taxed the entire time it is out of the UK and cannot be out of the UK for longer than 12 months without being permanently exported. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Smudge345 - 2016-11-29 9:38 AM Hi Everyone Thanks for your comments/feedback - it's all very helpful , my preference would be to buy here but we're just not sure how long we'll be staying in the Algarve , it's all going to be a huge trial the first year as we plan to rent out our house in the UK to part fund what we want to do so potentially we could be out the UK for 12 months or more which makes me think should we buy in Portugal and store it there when not in use , i think our end point will always be our apartment in the Algarve but i would never right touring in the UK as well , i guess it's a nice problem to have but we just need to make the correct decision. Thanks I would wait until you are nearer the time when you purchase a van. Hopefully the brexit will be solved in 18 months time ! Then things may change! PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 But not necessarily for the better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Derek Uzzell - 2016-11-29 2:03 PM But not necessarily for the better... Scaremonger :D ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Keithl - 2016-11-29 11:00 AM ColinM50 - 2016-11-29 10:39 AM Secondly, having run a HR function for six years in France up to 2010 with 400 UK employees I know a little about this. After much searching we found a couple of insurance brokers who were quite happy to insure a UK vehicle WITHOUT the need for the car to have UK car tax on it. Colin, This may well have applied in 2010 but is no longer the case. If a vehicle is not taxed then it must be declared SORN and can only be SORN'ed if it is actually in the UK. "Your vehicle must stay in the UK for your SORN to be valid." https://www.gov.uk/sorn-statutory-off-road-notification/overview And if your vehicle is out of the UK for over 12 months it must be 'Permanently exported' https://www.gov.uk/taking-vehicles-out-of-uk Finally, as you did say, you cannot drive a vehicle back into the UK which is not taxed. https://www.gov.uk/taking-vehicles-out-of-uk/for-less-than-12-months So the long and short is your vehicle MUST remain taxed the entire time it is out of the UK and cannot be out of the UK for longer than 12 months without being permanently exported. Keith. Plus, to the best of my knowledge, for a vehicle to be legal on foreign roads (under the Vienna Convention on International Traffic) it must fully comply with the legal requirements of its home state. Being taxed is one of those legal requirements for UK registered vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Slightly off topic What is the situation regarding the Motor Homers, who spend all the time living in Mh abroad? technically they must have exported their vans ?? And become "homeless" persons?? i know that if you live abroad for more than 6 months, in any one country, and have a UK registered car, you are supposed to re register in that country. i know of some persons who did live in Spain and France, and did not do this. Got away with it , by saying that main home was in Uk, and that the Spanish/French home was a holiday home. Maybe when retired and not working, lifes one big holiday, so spending more time in another country is a holiday home ? Any full timers on the forum? Dave may have to watch out (only joking Dave and Sue) PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 PJay Relevant advice on vehicle registration etc. can be found here http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/registration/index_en.htm http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/registration/taxes/index_en.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smudge345 Posted December 16, 2016 Author Share Posted December 16, 2016 Hi Folks Some very helpful info from you all here , thanks again and have a great Christmas and New Year. E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 When we first moved to France we had a Suzuki Grand Vitara which was registered in the Uk at our holiday address. There were good reasons but after only a few weeks our UK insurance and Mot expired, and we had to renew the insurance in France before we could drive back to the UK to renew the MOT and RFL we intended to sell the car in the UK not long after, so did not intend to register that car in France. It was all about the project leader really underestimating the amount of work needed to make our pile of stones fit to live in,and how long we would need to tow a trailer, we had thought we would only need to sort out the garden. The important bit is we insured the car, with it's UK registration number, and UK address, with AXA in France, and the car was MOT'd and taxed in the UK, even though the insurance company showed our address in France . When we had to register the car in France, the UK people refunded the balance of the RFL. AXA were very competitive on price, and made only a token charge to change the details. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Complicated, innit? And we all have DIFFERENT complications, too! We're moving to France in May, and want to end up with a French MH. But our van is our sole vehicle, and we want to take our time selling it (to get a good price), AND take our time choosing the right French van. Our solution is to buy a cheap LHD car as temporary transport, sell "Roxie" (shh, we haven't told her yet!), then export the car and register it in France. Once settled, we'll start looking for the right can, then finally sell the car. Try figuring out the insurance implications of that little lot! Apols for the hijack, but I'll keep watching this thread for helpful ideas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Tony The (potentially) tricky bit will be identifying the best way to handle the insurance for the UK-registered LHD car that you’ll be taking abroad with you when you move to France. You might try seeking guidance from here: https://www.keithmichaels.co.uk/specialist-car-insurance/expat-car-insurance/taking-a-uk-car-to-europe/ https://www.hertsinsurance.com/expats/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Yes. The current plan is either to insure it for a full year (and take the cancellation hit when we export it), or to look for temporary month-by-month cover - which will also be pricey! However, we're going over for a week or so at the end of January (Roxie's last trip with us!), so we might take the car's paperwork with us and see if we can register and insure it at our French address and take its new plates home for it. Then we can cancel the UK insurance, declare it to be exported, and use it as a "French vehicle visiting the UK" for the remaining 3 months until we move. But I'll need to check the legalities of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvin marvin Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Tony Jones - 2016-12-17 9:53 PM Complicated, innit? And we all have DIFFERENT complications, too! We're moving to France in May, and want to end up with a French MH. But our van is our sole vehicle, and we want to take our time selling it (to get a good price), AND take our time choosing the right French van. Our solution is to buy a cheap LHD car as temporary transport, sell "Roxie" (shh, we haven't told her yet!), then export the car and register it in France. Once settled, we'll start looking for the right can, then finally sell the car. Try figuring out the insurance implications of that little lot! Apols for the hijack, but I'll keep watching this thread for helpful ideas! This is a blast from the past....where the heck have you been? Or have I been sleeping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 You may well have been sleeping Tony - I couldn't possibly comment! - but you're quite right, I've not been haunting OAL much of late. Busy with work, and planning the Great Retirement Adventure! Also got a bit fed up with arguments and stuff, but maybe if I stay away from Chatterbox .... ?? And when did I become a "Forum Master???" Sounds almost as good as my "Global Moderator" rank over on the Other Side! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randonneur Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 Tony, you cannot register the vehicle in France and the UK at the same time.The vehicle can only have one set of registration papers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted December 18, 2016 Share Posted December 18, 2016 That's ok, I don't need dual registration (unless I get a genuine Aston Martin DB5 of course, with revolving number plates!) If I take the paperwork to France in Feb, it'll be to import it permanently, cancelling the UK reg. Or I can leave it til we actually move, and export it then. As from moving day we won't have a UK address anymore, so it's just getting the order right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted December 19, 2016 Share Posted December 19, 2016 Phase 1 accomplished - bought our left hooker for collection in New Year. Now got to sort out some insurance from then until export day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Now you’ve got your LHD car, you could think laterally (literally) and explore the Clip-Car option. This has a devoted following in France and would prove your willingness to immerse yourself fully in French camping-car culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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