Upgrading fiat light to 4000kg.

[colin]

colin - 2017-01-27 9:17 AM

 

I've just been browsing GOCA, and rules there appear to be just the same as UK, the MMA (as they call MAM) is the limit not the actual weight.

 

Brian, as I posted here, GOCA the Belgian authority say the B cat is up to 3.5t plated, not actual.

Now it is the case that a vehicle such as mine technicaly has a 4t capacity but is plated at 3.5t, and I can only guess this is what is being alluded to.

[Brian Kirby]

colin - 2017-02-07 9:53 PM

 

colin - 2017-01-27 9:17 AM

 

I've just been browsing GOCA, and rules there appear to be just the same as UK, the MMA (as they call MAM) is the limit not the actual weight.

 

Brian, as I posted here, GOCA the Belgian authority say the B cat is up to 3.5t plated, not actual.

Now it is the case that a vehicle such as mine technicaly has a 4t capacity but is plated at 3.5t, and I can only guess this is what is being alluded to.

Agreed Colin, but it could not be driven on a B licence if re-plated to 4,000kg MAM, as Monique seems to be suggesting. Otherwise, I can see no point in pursuing a 4,000kg MAM upgrade, merely to plate it back down to 3,500kg, so as to drive it on a B licence.

[Derek Uzzell]

I THINK Monique is saying that it is now possible to have all the necessary modifications made to turn a 3500kg Ducato ‘light’ into a 4000kg version, and then have it ‘replated’ so that its uprated axle-loadings are shown on the revised data-plate but with no MAM increase shown. That way the vehicle could still be driven legally on a B-licence and it would be a simple matter to subsequently ‘uprate’ further to 4000kg MAM, at which point a C1-licence (at least) would be required.

 

Incidentally, France does have a C1 driving-licence entitlement. It didn’t use to have, but a few years ago France was ‘compelled’ to introduce that category,

 

http://www.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/permis-de-conduire/passer-son-permis/les-permis-professionnels-permis-c-transport-de-marchandises-ou-materiel

 

[Brian Kirby]

Derek Uzzell - 2017-02-08 10:00 AM

 

I THINK Monique is saying that it is now possible to have all the necessary modifications made to turn a 3500kg Ducato ‘light’ into a 4000kg version, and then have it ‘replated’ so that its uprated axle-loadings are shown on the revised data-plate but with no MAM increase shown. That way the vehicle could still be driven legally on a B-licence and it would be a simple matter to subsequently ‘uprate’ further to 4000kg MAM, at which point a C1-licence (at least) would be required.

 

Incidentally, France does have a C1 driving-licence entitlement. It didn’t use to have, but a few years ago France was ‘compelled’ to introduce that category,

 

http://www.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/permis-de-conduire/passer-son-permis/les-permis-professionnels-permis-c-transport-de-marchandises-ou-materiel

Could be. It still puzzles me a bit though that one would go to the additional expense of obtaining a 4 tonne van on a "light" chassis, if it were then to be downplated to 3.5 tonnes, in preference to just buying the van on the heavy chassis at 4 tonnes (downplated or not), or buying the light chassis plated at 3.5 tonnes if what one wants/can drive, is 3.5 tonnes. However, I'm sure Monique knows.

 

Thanks for the update on French C1. I had been under the impression that when the government was "persuaded" to accept their error in not recognising "grandfather rights", they had just issued qualifying drivers with straight C licences.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

To get a licence plate not the driver licence you have to show the coc where the maker is allowed to put it on the road in europe. The national licence paper shows the coc data: under or above 3500kg class is your own choice. If your coc have higher data and plates they remain valid and there will be no replating to 3500 kg. Once you receive the licence plate via your insurance company your are not still road legal. you have to pass the Goca station for testing and they ask you above or under 3500kg. They run the 3500 test and determine your payload and max passengers by weight and show a total weight on their document. Declaring that the provider is responsible for the liquids fill including gas. That can be including the drive train about 200kg.Excluding 120 ltr diesel tank. This first test is the most important so move all loose things out. It can be an extra passenger on the paper document. If you have 3850-4000 plates on the light no problem. This test in belgium is repeated every year but their will be no weight tests anymore and the original document first test keeps valid and is a birth certificate.Unless the tester see that you that have made weight rebuilds there will be a weight test. Not axles and tires but the whole thing together. It looks to me absurd to replate a uk motorhome down to 3500 kg just for the licence if it can carry a higher weight.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

It is not done in Belgium alone. It is in all sales documents in the Netherlands, Germany, Sweden, Norway Etc. Is your gasbottle thicker in the UK?

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

My beloved cockier Phil died this morning only 7 months old of brain Mismatch. I am in tears for a while.

[goldi]

colin - 2017-02-04 7:28 PM

 

I've been mulling this over trying to think where this might be useful.

I agree with above if wanting to have 4t van it would be best to buy one on the heavy chassis, but there are a couple of cases where upgrading the 3.3t to 3.5t might be handy, a point in case would be the Adria Twin, originally these came out the factory as 3.3L or 3.5H (and I believe still do), the early 3.3s have a tendency to overload the front axle, an upgrade of the axles to 3.5t would resolve the front axle problems and give some extra load capacity.

If I was looking to buy a new Twin I would prefer it to be on a 3.5L, if as I believe Adria won't supply this I would investigate having the 3.3 upgraded to 3.5 as opposed to having the 3.5H as the ride is better.

 

Good afternoon,

 

I had the earlier Adria twin which was a great van To accommodate the weight of scooter on the back I uprated to 3.5 from3.3. Which was a paper excercise I would not have wanted to go any higher because I felt that the brakes were at their full capacity. I now have the globe car on heavy chassis with 16 inch wheels rated at 3.5 this feels well on top of the job. I agree with what Brian Kirby says about decending steep hills on the continent such as coming down the Pyrenees into France or down the hill into Clermont Ferrond .

 

 

norm

[Derek Uzzell]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2017-02-08 4:02 PM

 

To get a licence plate not the driver licence you have to show the coc where the maker is allowed to put it on the road in europe. The national licence paper shows the coc data: under or above 3500kg class is your own choice. If your coc have higher data and plates they remain valid and there will be no replating to 3500 kg. Once you receive the licence plate via your insurance company your are not still road legal. you have to pass the Goca station for testing and they ask you above or under 3500kg. They run the 3500 test and determine your payload and max passengers by weight and show a total weight on their document. Declaring that the provider is responsible for the liquids fill including gas. That can be including the drive train about 200kg.Excluding 120 ltr diesel tank. This first test is the most important so move all loose things out. It can be an extra passenger on the paper document. If you have 3850-4000 plates on the light no problem. This test in belgium is repeated every year but their will be no weight tests anymore and the original document first test keeps valid and is a birth certificate.Unless the tester see that you that have made weight rebuilds there will be a weight test. Not axles and tires but the whole thing together. It looks to me absurd to replate a uk motorhome down to 3500 kg just for the licence if it can carry a higher weight.

 

Monique

 

The UK has no similar system.

 

A person orders a new motorhome from a dealership and defines the specification they require.

 

When the motorhome arrives at the dealership, a UK registration-number is assigned to it by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) that assigns the vehicle to the appropriate UK tax class. The tax class is selected by the DLVA based on the motorhome’s maximum overall weight (up to 3500kg or over 3500kg) and whether or not there is a CO2 emissions figure on the motorhome’s ‘final’ Type Approval Certificate of Conformity (CofC). It is a bit more complicated that that, but most new motorhomes are assigned to Tax Class 11 (up to 3500kg weight) or Tax Class 10 (over 3500kg weight).

 

Details of the current UK vehicle taxation classes are here:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/508618/V149_170316.pdf

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/561258/V355X1-Notes-about-tax-classes.pdf

 

Once a UK registration number has been assigned to the motorhome by the DVLA, the motorhome dealership has registration-plates made up (or the dealer may make them) and fits the plates to the vehicle.

 

The buyer of the new motorhome pays the dealer and drives it away.

 

The UK registration-document (V5C) is posted to the buyer’s home-address.

 

The amount of ‘technical’ information is on a motorhome’s V5C can vary and is often not a great deal. There’s a description/sample of a V5C here:

 

http://car-from-uk.com/v5c.php

 

You’ll see that the UK registration process is relatively simple, with no testing or inspection being performed.

 

Where driving licences are concerned, the UK regulations are shown here

 

https://www.gov.uk/driving-licence-categories

 

For motorhome owners, if they passed their ‘car’ driving test before 1 January 1997, they would have been awarded a “C1” entitlement (vehicles up to 7500kg MAM) as well as a “B” entitlement. If they passed their ‘car’ driving test on or after 1 January 1997, they would have just been awarded a “B” entitlement (vehicles up to 3500kg MAM).

 

In the UK motorhomes are weight-uprated because their owners want more payload or find that the vehicle is overloaded, and doing this will have driving-licence implications if the motorhome’s MAM is increased beyond 3500kg

 

Weight-downrating to 3500kg is normally carried out if the motorhome’s owner only has a “B” driving-licence entitlement, perhaps because they have decided to relinquish their “C1” entitlement at age-70, or sometimes because the “C1” entitlement has been removed for medical reasons.

 

(Sorry to hear about Phil.)

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Never was aware of this that you can put a motor home this way on the road in the uk. Just by paper. What about periodical testing? What about used imported ones. Who can make the replating and what happens whit the originals. Can you import RHD motorhomes from europe clean of all taxes ? My Wheels and tyres just fit for the above upgrade. On the light you can also use the 5x118 6.0J 15 et68 1150kg or 1200 kg 16 inch. And a suitable Tyre load index. In case of driver licence overload the fines are different in europe making a difference between technical and the licence of the driver. Also no drive or unload is different. I prefer the technical upgrade because most insurance companies follow this. In case check this.As we a aware their are a lot of national deviations technical and taxes. The netherlands have their BPM on mobility. For a premium motor home about 12000 euro extra besides the VAT which is also different. Next week i look for a new dog to replace my Phil. That is just life. To Derek thank you he was very short on display. Life goes on.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

In the meantime checked my light-metal wheels having 1075kg load. The agilis CP load number 109=1030 kg.May i drive at 100 percent or 90 percent actual loads? Michelin also uses a misleading dual figure 109/107 in their spec. The last lower figure being applicable to two tires on one end axle. But the sidewall marking is 109/80 psi. Not a clue about 107 index.Also find out that the tracks 1810-1980 are for steel wheels at off-set 68.And that my LM wheels having 60 off-set increase the tracks to 1826-1996. Assuming that is the increase of 68-60=8x2=16. Fiat-alko still uses the 3850 limit and also fiat-fiat. No any builder has it as an option .How about SV tech? And fiat? And the builder because an extra 500 kg is stored somewhere in the house. Is this heading before the Fall? No it is not it is done by goldschmitt with all approvals in germany and as far i understand also in other countries. Just fit for purpose.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Correction: The house built on a fiat light or heavy is the same thing.

[Brian Kirby]

monique.hubrechts@gm - 2017-02-09 5:48 PM

Never was aware of this that you can put a motor home this way on the road in the uk. Just by paper. What about periodical testing?

First test three years after first registration. Subsequent tests annual.

 

What about used imported ones.

Three years after first registration in export country. Subsequent tests due annually, on anniversary of first registration in export country.

 

Who can make the replating and what happens whit the originals.

Authorised automotive engineers. New plate attached over, or beside, original so that change is visible.

 

Can you import RHD motorhomes from europe clean of all taxes ?

Yes. (I think you probably mean LHD?) If new, VAT is payable in the UK. If VAT was paid when buying, this can be claimed back when the UK VAT is paid. If used, less than 6 months old, and with less than 6,000km recorded, VAT is paid as for a new vehicle. If over 6 months old, or over 6,000 recorded km, the VAT cannot be reclaimed, but no additional VAT is payable on import to the UK.

[Derek Uzzell]

General advice on importing a vehicle into the UK is in this DVLA leaflet:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/561488/INF106-How-to-import-a-vehicle-into-the-United-Kingdom-_UK_.pdf

 

For a vehicle to be considered ‘used’ it will need to have been registered outside the UK for at least 6 months or have travelled at least 6000km. The vehicle’s age (ie. when it was built) is not relevant in this instance.

 

It is sometimes practicable to order a new RHD motorhome from a Continental European dealership and import it into the UK, but it is much more usual for motorhomes ‘privately’ imported to be in LHD format. Prior to UK-registration the imported motorhome will need to be inspected to confirm that its lights, speedometer markings, etc. meet UK technical regulations. This procedure is described here:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/222591/apply-commission-notice-motorhomes.pdf

 

Tyres that are marked “CP” (Camping Pneu) carry only a single load index, indicating that their normal use is single fitment (ie. on an axle with a single wheel on each end). For dual fitment (ie. on an axle with twinned-wheels on each end) the axle load capacity is considered to be 1.85 times that of a single wheel fitment axle. For a 215/70 R15CP tyre with a load index of 109, this would make the tyre roughly equivalent to a 215/70 R15C 'commercial’ tyre with 109/106 load indices.

 

A motorhome manufacturer will (should?) ensure that the load-carrying capacity of the tyres fitted to the vehicle are adequate for the vehicle’s axle-loadings. Consequently, if the vehicle has CP tyres with a 109 load-index (1030kg) and the axle is ‘single wheel’ type, the axle’s maximum loading should not exceed 2060kg (2 x 1030kg). In the unlikely event that those tyres were fitted to a ‘twinned wheel’ axle, the axle’s maximum loading should not exceed 3811kg (2060kg x 1.85).

 

If the motorhome were loaded so that its axle-loadings exceeded the maxima shown on the vehicle’s ‘final’ data-plate, the vehicle would no longer be in a legal condition.

 

Obviously if a motorhome has tyres that do not have the design-capability to cope with the vehicle’s maximum axle-loadings (eg. if the motorhome had been weight-uprated unsympathetically) tyre-failure could result if the axles were loaded to their maxima.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Wow what a knowledge spread by Brian and Derek.Since Phil is no longer beside me i have to stretch my senses. If tomorrow never comes tell her i loved you. But i was unable to do so. Alko sites are very bad in information . The best site is camper on line Italy. Al-ko Alexandro Buttrini is famous in presenting alko motor home products on this site.Since John Wickers ham left us. On topic the up graders do not mention the new front and rear axle loads. I did a full air suspension study on fiat- alko on every single part. To understand their basic set up is already very complicated in relation to fully unload our famous grease position and fully loaded. That swing of the arms being your ride heights separate from each other on both sides can lead to non horizontal. One tooth is about some multiplied by three torsion bars. That swing arm should match your shock absorber. The topic is upgrading fiat camping chassis but alko torsion bars in fiat light being alko38 L fits. Their bump stop of the two is 2140 kg. If you go over this they can explode in your axle tube. In case of full air suspension on alko rear retro which is the same price as new. The flwg material is removed: two front struts,6 torsion bars.two swing arms if single axle. Relaxed by two new bars and air brackets. These brackets are very critical on their attachment to chassis. They take 90 percent of the load. No data what happens whit the new relaxed swing arms in relation to greasing but it remains in case of air.

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

Be aware of the following. Chassis identification numbers like the fiat ZFA should beside the plates have a permanent press identification in the chassis metal like in the old days. In a MGB i was imported once it was in the gear tunnel under heavy carpet and unreadable because of the thin material to stamp the hand symbol Stamping. Not sure how fiat do it now but they are difficult to read if at all possible. Check that you can read yourselves.The Belgium rule is that you can show all identification by yourself to the authorizes. Take also a recording of your engine number stamped on the engine block. In case you see your engine for sale on the internet when-your motor home was stolen and was taken apart.