Refillable gas cylinders

[Accipiter Nisus]

I currently use two Flogas 6kg propane bottles in my motorhome, these being the largest size that will fit in the gas locker. I was thinking that I might change one for a refillable cylinder of the same size, the kind you can fill yourself at a garage, and I would be interested to know what others think about swapping over to this type of bottle, and their experience with them. Any thoughts as to the best make or the least expensive bottles to go for?

 

Also, do refillables use the same POL male LH thread fitting as my existing bottles and if not, is there a converter to fit a POL tail.

[StuartO]

If you are converting to refillable, it's worth having at least an 11kg bottle (or tank) so you can benefit from the cheaper refillable gas without having to keep refuelling frequently.  This is especially true if you tour mainly in UK where refuelling opportunities aren't all that common.

 

When my system was installed (professionally) they cut the top handles and rim off the 11kg bottles to get them into the gas locker.

 

If your locker is impossibly small the alternative might be an underslung tank to get a worthwhile carrying capacity for refillable gas.

 

If I was starting again I would install one 11kg refillable bottle and use a small second bottle (maybe a rental bottle rather than a second refillable) as emergency back up, planning to refill within every three weeks or so, which is what a single 11kg lasts us when we are touring.

 

Refillables do all use a POL connection for drawing gas.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Flogas quotes the dimensions of its 6kg propane bottle as

 

Height: 495mm approx

 

Diameter: 256mm approx

 

https://www.flogas.co.uk/shop/cylinders/flogas-gas-cylinders/6kg-propane-gas

 

Regarding user-refillable bottles to replace the Flogas container and that should fit in your gas-locker OK, Gaslow offers a 6kg “R67” bottle

 

http://www.gaslowdirect.com/Gaslow-R67-6kg-Refillable-Cylinder-No1

 

Autogas 2000 offers a 6kg “RV bottle"

 

http://www.autogasleisure.co.uk/pdf/rv.pdf

 

and GAS-It offers two 6kg containers - a ‘2-hole’ bottle

 

http://www.gasit.co.uk/leisure-gas-refillable-products/-gas-it-refillable-bottles/gas-it-6kg-refillable-gas-bottle-with-level-/-contents-gauge-price-includes-vat.html

 

and a more expensive '4-hole’ bottle

 

http://www.gasit.co.uk/leisure-gas-refillable-products/3-gas-it-plus-4-hole-bottles/4-hole-6kg-12-ltr-gas-it-plus-upright-refillable-cylinder.html

 

The outlet of metal user-refillable bottles has a 21.8LH male thread (NOT a POL fitting), but a converter (example on following link) can be obtained to allow connection to a UK-norm (propane) POL-fitting gas-hose.

 

http://www.gasit.co.uk/leisure-gas-refillable-products/7-gas-pipes-pigtails-and-vapour-tank-accessories/gas-bottle-butane-gas-outlet-to-uk-pol-propane-adaptors.html

 

Based on the advertised prices, the Gaslow 6kg “R67” product (though not the cheapest) would be the best bet.

 

 

[Robbo]

I don't wish to disagree with StuartO but my Gaslow refillable uses a 21.8 LH connection at the cylinder oulet end.

 

I have a similar set up, one refillable and one Calor propane cylinder.

 

Suggest the OP needs to purchase a new pigtail with a 21.8 LH connector to connect with a refillable.

 

The new refillable cylinders (4 hole type) have a more accurate level indicator which is mounted into the top of the cylinder. Viewing the level indicator can be difficult but Gaslow seem to have overcome this problem by raising the level indicator so it can also be viewed from the side.

 

Cheap is not always best especially if you have limited capacity within your gas locker.

 

I've previously bought from this website, lots of info and will give you an idea of the relative costs between the Gaslow and Gasit systems although other makes are available: http://www.motorcaravanning.co.uk/shopuk/gaslow_refillables.htm

 

Edit: just seen Derek's post and obviously there is an adapter to convert from POL to a 21.8 LH fitting.

[StuartO]

Robbo - 2017-06-01 2:06 PMI don't wish to disagree with StuartO but my Gaslow refillable uses a 21.8 LH connection at the cylinder oulet end.....

I stand corrected - clearly I've led a sheltered life!

 

[Derek Uzzell]

AN’s motorhome is a 2016 Elddis Accordo 105 and the manufacturer quotes its gas-carrying capability as "Compartment for 2x 7kg gas bottles, with fitted gas regulator”.

 

With Flogas propane cylinders currently being used, if (say) a Gaslow user-refillable bottle were chosen the choices would be

 

a) To swop the present POL-ended gas ’pigtail’ for one with a 21.8 LH end (as used with a UK Calor 4.5kg butane bottle) that would connect directly to the refillable bottle without the need for a converter, and to add a 21.8LH to POL converter

 

http://leisurelines.net/adaptor-butane-pig-t---pol-propane-827-p.asp

 

to the pigtail if it became necessary to connect to the Flogas bottle. This is the ‘tidiest’ option.

 

b) To add a POL to 21.8LF converter to the existing gas pigtail to permit that pigtail to be connected to the refillable bottle. This is undoubtedly the cheapest option and such converters are readily available.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=pol+to+21.8LH+adapter

 

It’s perhaps worth mentioning that there is a user-refillable gas container that does have a POL outlet. It’s Safefill’s composite-construction bottle

 

http://www.safefill.co.uk/our-cylinders.html

 

but the diameter of all three sizes of Safefill bottle is 305mm, so they may well not fit in an Accordo 105’s gas-locker.

 

As StuartO says, it would be worth AN checking whether a user-refillable bottle larger than 6kg-capacity can be shoehorned into his motorhome’s gas-locker, as the cost-difference between an 11kg and a 6kg refillable container is not huge and the interval between refillings is significantly extended with the larger bottle.

 

After a decision has been reached regarding which user-refillable bottle to buy, the next thing that will need to be decided is whether to ‘plumb’ that bottle in semi-permanently, or to refill it ‘directly’.

 

Gaslow markets “Direct Fill” R67-bottle ‘kits’ that include a refilling adapter

 

http://www.outdoorbits.com/gaslow-direct-fill-bottles-c-123_457.html

 

but (as it says on that link) a permanently-fitted system will be potentially less ‘controversial’ when it comes to refilling.

 

http://www.dicklanemotorhomes.co.uk/pdfs/gaslow-filling-instructions.pdf

 

 

 

[Accipiter Nisus]

Thanks to all for your helpful comments. Derek is indeed right, my motorhome is a 2016 Elddis Accordo 105 and the gas locker is 630mm high by a very tight 300mm wide. It's doubtful that it would be possible to manoeuver anything much wider than a 256mm 6kg bottle into place.

 

I'm really looking to have just one 6kg self refillable bottle with the existing Flogas as a backup. I understand from your replies that the gas take off for most self refillables is 21.8mm male, and I already have an adaptor from a 4.5 Calor butane left over from my last motorhome which should do nicely.

 

Where I could do with some advice, as I have no experience at all, is on the availability of the gas and the refilling of the bottles. One link from Derek shows, "Industrial sheet 028" dated June 2007 which suggests filling bottles that are not plumbed into the van is unacceptable and implied it should be illegal. That was ten years ago, so where does the law stand now? Can I refill stand alone bottles, or is this a non starter?

 

 

[Ocsid]

Accipiter Nisus - 2017-06-02 9:41 AM

 

Where I could do with some advice, as I have no experience at all, is on the availability of the gas and the refilling of the bottles. One link from Derek shows, "Industrial sheet 028" dated June 2007 which suggests filling bottles that are not plumbed into the van is unacceptable and implied it should be illegal. That was ten years ago, so where does the law stand now? Can I refill stand alone bottles, or is this a non starter?

 

 

I have no reason to believe it is illegal but know that garage forecourts around me with LPG pumps will not allow you to fill a stand alone refillable.

User friends say "hide what you are doing till its too late to be stopped", but I don't want to rely on "getting away with it", I would rather be able to use my local garage.

 

A fixed system removes that endless worry.

[AndyLou]

Recently had a 11KG GAS-IT bottle fitted (at Newbury show) with external filling point £250 including European and POL adapters.

The 6kg is about £10-£15 cheaper I think.

The advantage of the external filling point is never having to lift bottle in and out again and no worries on the forecourt.

Most Texaco garages near me have Autogas pumps.

 

While I have your attention.

We used 6 litres from Thursday to Monday over the bank holiday is this a lot?

 

Thanks

 

Andy.

[mgnbuk]

"We used 6 litres from Thursday to Monday over the bank holiday is this a lot?"

 

Depends. How much were you using the heating / hot water ? Was the fridge running on gas ? Did you cook in much ?

 

On my last van (Roller Team T-Line 670 with Truma gas-only Combi 4), I used under 11 litres of Autogas on a 3 week summer tour - hot water on every day from parking up until leaving ( 2 showers daily + washing & washing-up), with some use of the fridge on gas & some cooking.

I used 12 litres in 3 night between Xmas & New Year (when it was barely above freezing during the day & well below at night) - heating / hot water on from parking up to leaving (same hot water usage), some cooking & fridge on electric !

 

Your appliance handbooks will give the gas consumption in grammes per hour, so you should be able to get an idea of gas usage by working out how long you were running the appliances for.

 

Nigel B

[Derek Uzzell]

Accipiter Nisus - 2017-06-02 9:41 AM

 

...Where I could do with some advice, as I have no experience at all, is on the availability of the gas and the refilling of the bottles. One link from Derek shows, "Industrial sheet 028" dated June 2007 which suggests filling bottles that are not plumbed into the van is unacceptable and implied it should be illegal. That was ten years ago, so where does the law stand now? Can I refill stand alone bottles, or is this a non starter?

 

 

The following two video-clips show ‘autogas’ refilling of a “Safefill” container (designed to be user-refillable) and refilling of an ‘exchange-only’ canister (not designed to be user-refillable).

 

 

 

In both cases there’s a strong likelihood that (in many countries) refilling a gas-botlle that is not installed in a vehicle will cause a service-station attendant to object. As Ocsid has said, there’s no law (in the UK at least) preventing this type of refilling, but service-station staff are equally entitled to prohibit such methods if they so choose.

 

As has always been advised, a fully ‘plumbed in’ system with an external filling-point minimises the risk of objections from service-station staff.

 

Regarding availability of autogas, these links should help

 

http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/i-have-lpg/where-can-i-purchase-fuel/

 

https://www.mylpg.eu/stations/

 

(What you need to decide is whether your LPG-usage now and in the future merits opting for a user-refillable system. If you don’t use much gas now and don’t plan to change that, you might be better staying with your two Flogas bottles.)

[flyboyprowler]

Purely on the usage issue, we changed to a one refillable, and one normal bottle and haven't regretted it at all. We run on the refillable, and in the unlikely event of running that down, then there is always a full one to switch over to. Availability of gas, no problem, and even in Spain, a lot more garages are supplying gas, albeit, you need to carry adaptors for the different countries, no problem, and little cost for the set. After all, you will use gas at the same rate, but have the convenience, and cost saving option of refilling rather than having to find a replacement bottle. If you run the refillable dry, then use the other, and refill when convenient, so when the normal bottle is dry, switch to the refillable again. You could look for secondhand bottles to save costs, but have them fitted professionally, and as the bottles have an expiry date, get one with a long time to run and always use new gas pipe!!

[keninpalamos]

I have 2 Original MTH 20 litre barge pole bottles. I've christened them with that name because years ago someone on the forum said they wouldn't touch them with the afore mentioned :-D which I can understand as they are not refilable bottles in the strictest sense of the word. (or, not to the public) But if you follow the safety instructions you can refill them safely. I have got used to them over 10 years or more. Last year I perchased a Safefill refillable 9.5 litre bottle which just, and only just fits the gas locker of my Auto/Sleeper which I have to load into the gas locker from inside the van. When refilling it I have to remove it from the locker, before arriving at the garage and place it by the offside rear sliding door and it is held in place between the rear seat box and the floor mounted table leg else I'd be pushing it around the van trying to get the delivery pistol connected. The video of the Safefill shows how easy it all is with the adapter used in France to fill a free standing bottle. Which in itself is debatable wether a French filling station would let you do that. I'd like to see how they tackle the UK connection in the same conditions. I don't think my little camper is suitable for a refillable but I can't bring myself to pay calor gas or camping gas prices any more.

[Bulletguy]

 

My choice is made very simple.....in a Duetto you have just about enough room to squeeze a couple of 3.9kg Propane cylinders in and that's it! However neither Calor or CampingGaz is cheap and when away from UK i use Polish gas. The cylinders are 3.4kg and a refill costs just £4........yes four quid!! The regulator is the most expensive part which comes in at a mind blowing £7.50! I have three Polish bottles and usually return home with one full so i have ample for the following year.

[Accipiter Nisus]

Thanks for all the information. I would be quite happy to buy an adaptor and refill the Flogas bottles myself as I feel I could manage that without a problem. However, these bottles are only rented to me and I'm not sure about the legality of doing this. Nor do I want to risk a confrontation on the garage forecourt.

 

I am minded to buy a 6kg refillable bottle, but I cannot see the need to run a hose connection to a fixed filler in the side of my motorhome. What's wrong with opening the gas locker, screwing on the connector and filling the bottle in situ? I'm sure somebody will tell me.

[flyboyprowler]

I appreciate that this is too big for your van but it would be a good price and maybe even cheaper for the smaller version.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gaslow-Refillable-gas-system-for-motorhome-/112422827521?hash=item1a2cec3601:g:BIgAAOSwlMFZKy~f

[flyboyprowler]

Or maybe this which is the right size, I think?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gaslow-Refillable-gas-system-for-motorhome-/112422827521?hash=item1a2cec3601:g:BIgAAOSwlMFZKy~f

[Keithl]

flyboyprowler - 2017-06-03 5:51 PM

 

I appreciate that this is too big for your van but it would be a good price and maybe even cheaper for the smaller version.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gaslow-Refillable-gas-system-for-motorhome-/112422827521?hash=item1a2cec3601:g:BIgAAOSwlMFZKy~f

 

flyboyprowler - 2017-06-03 10:35 PM

 

Or maybe this which is the right size, I think?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gaslow-Refillable-gas-system-for-motorhome-/112422827521?hash=item1a2cec3601:g:BIgAAOSwlMFZKy~f

 

But they're both the same item!

[flyboyprowler]

Ah yes, senior moment there, but there are several 6 kg bottles on ebay, and this was one I was looking at as my bottle is expiring next year!

[Accipiter Nisus]

Thanks, but any thoughts as to why it's considered necessary to have a fixed gas filler fitted to the side of the van as opposed to screwing the adaptor directly onto the bottle and filling it in situ? I can't see any safety reasons for this except perhaps where the gas locker makes access for filling difficult, which is not the case in my van.

[Ocsid]

Fumbling in a locker could well be seen as up to some clandestine act and the attendant has no way of knowing if in there you have some potential ignition source to set off the venting puff of LPG, a torch, light or some other electrical item?

 

Quite simply, most high flammability fluid fillers are exposed and it is safer that way, and I would expect that is the stance that would be taken.

 

Having said that I have read of users bragging they discretely on the hidden side wind down a car window to fill Safefill bottles in the rear seat footwell! There we have any number of ignition sources from window winders to fan motors etc.

[hallii]

There have been fires caused by what I believe were "home made" adapter set ups to fill ordinary cylinders.

Understandably, many, if not all, LPG pump attendants have been told not to allow the filling of cylinders directly.

 

It is far better to have a proper filler on the outside of the M/H and put an "Autogas" sticker around it (on ebay). You won't have problems filling if you do that, and I have filled all over Europe without problems.

 

H

[Derek Uzzell]

Accipiter Nisus - 2017-06-04 11:24 AM

 

Thanks, but any thoughts as to why it's considered necessary to have a fixed gas filler fitted to the side of the van as opposed to screwing the adaptor directly onto the bottle and filling it in situ? I can't see any safety reasons for this except perhaps where the gas locker makes access for filling difficult, which is not the case in my van.

 

Gaslow markets "Direct Fill" R67 bottles that include a refilling adapter - it Is the type of bottle I have chosen but, of course, it does require the gas-locker door to be opened before refilling can be carried out.

 

[Accipiter Nisus]

Thanks Derek, that's interesting. I think I might take the same route with one refillable and one Flogas spare. My gas locker lid drops down flush with the side of the van and as the width of the locker is just 300 mm wide, the filler would be close to the aperture and easy to use. Stray gas at the end of the filling should mostly be vented outside and any that went into the locker would quickly drain away. This seems a safe and secure method of refilling.

 

Since, if I understand you correctly, you are using this method of filling, I am very interested to know if you have encountered any problems at garages particularly in the UK.

 

 

 

[monique.hubrechtsgm]

What a connection Mess running on gas whit a refill. I run whit two Bp light bottles now downsised to 10 klg each. Running on 20 kg propane and a spare one or two depending where you go. Spare me the hassle you described. Apart from the electrical power connections you have on the UK camp sites.