Solar Panel Power

[StuartO]

Here here!

[Charles]

Quote "Solar Charger electronics can be slow to react causing a spike on the output. This then goes into the Motorhome 12v systems and can exceed the rating of the component inside the regulator causing failure to the regulator AND any 12v connected devices."

 

What kind of spike in the output? Voltage? Current?

Where do you get this fact from? I respect your experience working on van charging and battery systems, I bought my Votronic controller on your recommendation, (for the record I don't encourage anybody to disconnect the battery whilst the controller is connected I was merely stating it wouldn't be damaged if the fuse blew or you pulled it out) but your underpinning knowledge of electronic theory is very hit and miss.

 

I'm very sorry to hear you are having to have chemo, my wife had to go through it in 2010, she's still going strong, hopefully cured, so keep your chin up, cancer is not the death sentence it once was ;-)

[david lloyd]

aandncaravan - 2017-09-22 6:27 PM

 

This attack has really hacked me off, probably the Chemotherapy making me feel rubbish and causing me to over react, but this seems like a good time to pack it all in.

 

Bye everyone.

 

 

 

Please don't do that Alan. I, for one, have benefitted from your advice on a couple of occasions. Before that I now know I knew very little about motorhome 12v systems, charging, batteries and solar systems. From the advice given by you (and others such as Brambles) I have been able to rewrite my own solar charge setup installing a good regulator and the necessary safety fuses to make my system safe and much more efficient.

 

If you go, your input will be missed.

 

David

[aandncaravan]

This thread appears to have become well read so can we add 'a job' we dealt with yesterday where a poor Solar installation has cost a 'Couple' a fortune in repair costs to the Base vehicle?

 

We got an email from Adam Donato at North East Truck, a Fiat Professional Dealership in York, that went as follows :

 

"We are a Fiat Professional dealership in York and are having an issue with what we believe is a Schaudt EBL 271 charger/power unit.

It is installed in a Pilote/Fiat motorhome 2012 and the fault is that the body marker lights are always on since we have replaced the engine ECU.

We have been in touch with the supplying motorhome dealer and they have told us the EBL has been spiked during battery disconnection and they can supply us a replacement at £475 +VAT.

I see from your feed back you are well and truly up to speed with these units so I am asking if you can advise if you think the EBL is in fact “spiked” and needing replacement and if so can you supply us a remanufactured one? Or fix this one?

Any help would be much appreciated. Please see attached photos",

 

 

 

The photos showed a picture of the EBL with a none Pilote/Schaudt recommended 'House Solar' regulator installed which was not only the incorrect regulator but had been wired badly.

 

So we asked more questions.

 

Since the 'professionally' installed Solar was put in they have had no end of issues. Starter battery failure, lots of Dash warning lights coming on, Breakdowns and finally ECU failure.

£1,000's in repair costs so far.

 

The Solar installer had wired the 'Load' output of the regulator, a very basic, poor quality unit, directly to the Starter Battery circuit, presumably in some vain hope it would charge the Starter battery?

 

On this regulator, as per most with a 'Load output', it is designed to power a Motor, Light Bulb, etc when certain battery voltage thresholds are met and Solar power is being produced.

 

Not only does it have a 'fixed' voltage of around 12.3v, so no real battery charging capability which requires around 14v, but there were no blocking diodes to prevent power from the Starter battery turning the regulator into a 'Heater' when the Sun went down.

Obviously being designed to power a Light Bulb, etc. there would never be any 'power' at the end of the cable for blocking diodes to be required.

 

As a result the Solar regulator 'Load' side overheated and shorted providing a virtual straight through path for the 21v Solar Panel to spike the vehicle electrics.

 

No wonder the Dash lit up like a Christmas tree and fried the Engine ECU and the EBL!!

I think they were lucky not to lose more.

 

 

So please can we point out the Load circuit MUST NOT be used to charge a battery. To charge a battery the output needs to be 14.4v when the battery is low, dropping to 13.8v or less when the battery is charged

 

 

Can we also suggest you think about checking your Solar install to ensure the Load output isn't being used to charge a Starter battery, this Motorhome Dealer has probably installed more than one Solar Panel?

 

We suggest you avoid anything apart from Motorhome specific Solar chargers. If the Solar regulator doesn't have Starter battery and Habitation battery charging along with a low 13.4v trickle charge it is most likely not for a Motorhome, but a House Solar regulator which have very different design criteria.

 

 

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Someone just asked a question about the Dealer who installed the Solar, it was a Motorhome Dealer, not the Fiat Professional Dealership who I have to say really impressed with the way they tackled the broken EBL issue.

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Re the above 'job' for the Fiat Professional Garage : The burnt out poor quality Solar Regulator was isolated until the correct one can be fitted and all the 'broken' bits fixed. Now working properly, steady, stable 14.4v at the Starter Battery.

 

All done over the phone. Having a really good Autoelectrician at North East Trucks made it easy for us.

 

 

Adam just emailed :

 

"Allan, Thank you so much for getting back to me so quickly and for taking the time to explain exactly where things were going wrong!

I am referring my customer direct to yourself for the Solar fix and in future any of our motorhome customers that are thinking about a solar installation or having problems with battery maintenance I will be pointing them in your direction with a high recommendation.

 

Adam Donato,

Workshop Controller"

 

 

[aandncaravan]

Charles - 2017-09-22 10:28 PM

 

Quote "Solar Charger electronics can be slow to react causing a spike on the output. This then goes into the Motorhome 12v systems and can exceed the rating of the component inside the regulator causing failure to the regulator AND any 12v connected devices."

 

What kind of spike in the output? Voltage? Current?

Where do you get this fact from? I respect your experience working on van charging and battery systems, I bought my Votronic controller on your recommendation, (for the record I don't encourage anybody to disconnect the battery whilst the controller is connected I was merely stating it wouldn't be damaged if the fuse blew or you pulled it out) but your underpinning knowledge of electronic theory is very hit and miss.

 

 

I am sorry you are disappointed that I don't know everything about everything with your claim that my "underpinning knowledge of electronic theory is very hit and miss" but some of us mere mortals just don't know it all.

 

I learnt about electronics thanks to a brilliant Science Teacher, Mr Collier, who when I asked for help, at the age of 11, with a one transistor radio that I had built at home and couldn't get to work, showed me the fault.

From then on right through School he encouraged me, sometimes bringing in components to School for me to enhance circuits I had built.

You see he knew I lived in a Children's Home, he probably thought he could help me find a better life through learning than many in my position usually attain.

 

By the time I was 16, I was working in a local TV/Radio repairers on a Saturday repairing Valve TV's and Radios and the occasional transistor version.

 

It has all been self taught, based on graft, not a degree education in Electronics.

 

Being brought up in a Children's Home made getting into a Technical college a real challenge in the 1970's, let alone University.

I went on to repair/build computers, but primary career was in Computer Software then projects, maintaining a strong link with the hardware side the whole time. For that I truly thank Mr Collier.

 

 

As to your question on us stating not to remove battery leads while being charged by Solar -

"What kind of spike in the output? Voltage? Current? Where do you get this fact from?"

 

 

You answer that yourself, when you write - "On the Votronic duo 250 if you pull the fuse out, in effect you are disconnecting the battery and unloading the solar panel so the output voltage rises to the same as the input voltage (19v ish)".

 

To be more correct it is likely to be higher than 19v on a decent panel, more like 22v maybe? Possibly as high as 27v on some arrays?

 

 

So what will happen if the regulator is plugged into the Power controller, like a Sargent EC328 and someone removes the battery leads? According to you, 19v ish will be supplied directly into the power controller 12v circuit?

 

Which remember is connected to every part of the 12v habitation area, Fridge Controller, heating Controller, charger, lights, Laptop chargers - EVERYTHING with a 12v supply at that time receives, using your own words 19v ish, but more likely 22v +.

 

 

Like we said above, "Solar Charger electronics can be slow to react causing a spike on the output. This then goes into the Motorhome 12v systems and can exceed the rating of the component inside the regulator causing failure to the regulator AND any 12v connected devices."

 

You are clearly looking at it from a very simple view of the regulator always being connected directly to the battery.

 

 

For some reason you have to challenge everything I write lately, obviously because I am uneducated and you know better?

Well I will let you into a secret, despite your better knowledge and education, I am struggling to look up to you right now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Charles]

Yes but by pulling the fuse you are disconnecting the battery (and the rest of the motorhome) from the solar 'regulator'. So the output voltage will rise (I wouldn't call it a spike by the way) but there will be no current flow.

I think that we are talking about slightly different scenarios here, if the motorhome systems are still connected to the solar regulator output when the battery is disconnected, that is different to pulling the regulator fuse, which I thought was what we were talking about.

You obviously find my posts upsetting, so apologies, and I'll get me coat :'( :D

[aandncaravan]

This was never about pulling fuses, it was about isolating the Solar regulator from the panel and keeping the regulator in touch with the battery until that was done.

 

But we also said follow every Solar regulator manufacturers advice in not breaking the Solar regulator connection to the battery, of which there are several quotes from independent contributors above.

 

We wrote,

"Most Motorhome specific Solar charger documentation states that the Solar Panel should be isolated from the regulator before any battery work is done to prevent damage to the Solar Regulator or vehicle electrics".

 

 

 

Yes you are very correct, I do find the contradictory advice to ours upsetting, when by your own comments, your advice goes against manufacturers recommendations, so introducing risk for anyone following it..

It just isn't logical, like disagreeing for the sake of it, or some other motive?.

 

Your attack on my knowledge/skills I did take very much to Heart. That was personal and clearly designed to be.

 

Maybe it might be excusable if you had proven a point that the manufacturers and the advice we gave out was wrong, but you have not.

No doubt you will go on trying.

 

[aandncaravan]

Re the North East Trucks job : When the owners got the vehicle back they contacted us, one of the things Brenda wrote was,

"The solar system was fitted by a leading Pilote dealer in the UK. We find it disturbing that a reputable dealer could install a non recommended unit, resulting in so many problems".

 

Just because an install is done by a 'professional', especially a company that has all the details from the manufacturer on how it should be done, doesn't mean it's been done as well as it could be.

 

In the photo below you can just make out the 'Load' + running off to the EBL Solar 3 pin centre pin for the Starter battery.