david lloyd Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 aandncaravan - 2017-08-18 10:20 AM Bruce, I made a statement above about Solar Panels losing output as they age - "We rarely see more than about 5 amps at 14.2v on a 100w Solar panel that is older than about 2 years, so will be surprised if your older panel can match that, even with a better Solar Charger?" This is supported on a new thread about Solar Power from someone who has been using panels for some years, saying how one panel at 8 years of age is down to 60% efficiency, they quote - " fitted solar panels 80 watt so are around eight years old although are at around 60% efficient now. ". Effectively nearer a 50watt panel, rather than 80w? See here for full details : http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Solar-panels/47548/ Sorry Alan, I think this contributor was referring to his old leisure batteries which he had given to a friend and which we're now eight years old - operating at about 60% efficiency and that his friends van had an 80w solar panel fitted. His whole point was about leisure batteries losing their efficiency over time rather than the solar panel. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted August 21, 2017 Share Posted August 21, 2017 David, it is confusing as he talks about the batteries but then starts a new paragraph about 80w Solar panels. If you are right then that suggests he is trying to say that a battery at 60% efficient is one that is 'still working well' (when the industry regard a battery below 80% as past it) and is using a battery that is utterly devastated as an argument that Solar Panels won't impact a batteries useful life?That doesn't make sense either, but on rereading it you are probably right.In that case disregard that example as an pointer to deteriorating Solar Panels and instead use Stuart's quote at the start of this thread :StuartO - 2017-06-17 8:59 AMGood luck with the elderly solar panel which came with your MH - bear in mind that these panels don't last forever and older ones may not perform as well as newer, better types. My pair of panels failed last year (after about five years service) and I took it back to the original supplier, who took them down off the roof and replaced the blocking diodes, which restored what appears to be normal service. So test the output of your existing panel/regulator combination and evaluate whether it is enough for your needs. Unless it's still good enough to serve, take care not to spend good money on an old failing system. It still makes the point that they don't last for ever and just because they have a '20 year guarantee', doesn't mean they will still be 100% productive after 10 years, let alone 20.You still need to monitor their performance to be aware when it drops below the 'guarantee level' to get them replaced before it's too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin1946 Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 That was most interesting to read the information will help me as I have 2 x100 semi flexi just installed but not yet connected as I have a charging issue / or battery issue to fix first. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 Kevin, Semi flexible panels tend not to be made from Glass, so discolour/Cloud over time, like a cars plastic headlight lens, reducing light transmission and Solar output. Suggest you think about fitting good power monitoring equipment so you can monitor the degradation of the panel over the years and get it changed under warranty before the guarantee expires? These Flexis used to be the Panel of choice on Conwy Harbour/Marina boats a few years ago, we even did a few before we stopped doing Solar. The older installations really show signs of deterioration now, some down to less than 50% output. Solar Panels on Boats deteriorate a lot faster than on a Motorhome because of the harsh environment. Been a nice little insight into how Motorhome Solar Panels might age. Keep them clean, especially after being out on salted Winter roads, but be extra careful not to use an abrasive cleaner, just lots of fresh water to rinse away any grit before cleaning. No Jetwashers!!! Some of the Panels on the Boats have a 'soft' plastic surface, so suggest that unless yours were very expensive, you assume yours are too and treat them accordingly?. Unless a flexi is the only option, Glass Solar Panels will be much more efficient over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 18, 2017 Share Posted September 18, 2017 I had a semi flex for many years, very good and little if any degradation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Hello, maybe as a result of this thread, which was referred to a few times and I note has a huge number of hits, we are getting lots of emails/questions about Solar which we are struggling to answer because of the volume. We don't do Solar any more, but have created 3 dedicated Solar webpages on our website, one on 'Solar Installation Hints and Tips' : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/solar-power.php Another one on Solar Panels which includes a chart that shows how Solar Power drops in in the UK as you move North between Cornwall and Glasgow : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/solar-panels.php and a specialist page related to the different/unusual requirements of the Schaudt Elektroblock units : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/lr-1218.php There is no advertising on the pages, we don't do Solar so it is Independent advice based on what we have done, what we have seen and the problems people might see. We have put everything we know on the webpages to help everyone. The whole website is similar, just lots of information on : Batteries (we don't sell those either so also independent) How to get the best from a Motorhome charger/Controller, Long term mains EHU, Reverse Polarity, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuwsmith Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 What an interesting post! As a result of it I have just bought a Watt Meter, the same as OP and as shown in aandmcaravan post. Problem is it came with instructions in German! I'vesent PM to the OP to see if he can help with English instructions. Don't really want to connect it up in case there is something vital I should be aware of.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 If it is like the photo below, it states on the front which end is the SOURCE and the LOAD, two Red + and Black - wires in and out. You can wire it with the Source connected to the Solar Panel and the Load connected at the Solar regulator and it will measure all power, Ah, watts, volts, amps, etc that goes through the Watt meter on it's way from the Solar Panel to the Solar Regulator. This is the most efficient way to wire it as it is 'isolated' from the battery by the Solar Regulator so can't draw any power from the battery. It's sole source of energy to run the Display and electronics (about 10ma) will come from the Solar panel. However, obviously when the Sun goes down there will be no power for the Display/Electronics so it will lose all the stored data, restricting the data to just a '1 day' window. If you connect the 'Source' to the Solar regulator output and the 'Load' to the Sargent Power Distributor/Batteries then it will draw power from the battery all the time to keep the Display 'active' with up to a months data available on all the Solar power harvested. Bear in mind that located in the Solar Panel side of the Regulator it will measure all output from the Solar Panel, but in the battery side of the Regulator it will only monitor the power going to that battery, not to the Starter Battery on a Dual battery Regulator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 aandncaravan - 2017-09-20 9:29 PM If it is like the photo below, it states on the front which end is the SOURCE and the LOAD, two Red + and Black - wires in and out. You can wire it with the Source connected to the Solar Panel and the Load connected at the Solar regulator and it will measure all power, Ah, watts, volts, amps, etc that goes through the Watt meter on it's way from the Solar Panel to the Solar Regulator. This is the most efficient way to wire it as it is 'isolated' from the battery by the Solar Regulator so can't draw any power from the battery. It's sole source of energy to run the Display and electronics (about 10ma) will come from the Solar panel. However, obviously when the Sun goes down there will be no power for the Display/Electronics so it will lose all the stored data, restricting the data to just a '1 day' window. If you connect the 'Source' to the Solar regulator output and the 'Load' to the Sargent Power Distributor/Batteries then it will draw power from the battery all the time to keep the Display 'active' with up to a months data available on all the Solar power harvested. Bear in mind that located in the Solar Panel side of the Regulator it will measure all output from the Solar Panel, but in the battery side of the Regulator it will only monitor the power going to that battery, not to the Starter Battery on a Dual battery Regulator. If I could add my 2p worth... Pop such a piece of Chinese tat in the dustbin and buy a NASA BM1. Is your very expensive motorhome not worth spending £90 on a quality instrument?... Your choice mind B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 Charles - 2017-09-20 11:46 PM aandncaravan - 2017-09-20 9:29 PM If it is like the photo below, it states on the front which end is the SOURCE and the LOAD, two Red + and Black - wires in and out. You can wire it with the Source connected to the Solar Panel and the Load connected at the Solar regulator and it will measure all power, Ah, watts, volts, amps, etc that goes through the Watt meter on it's way from the Solar Panel to the Solar Regulator. This is the most efficient way to wire it as it is 'isolated' from the battery by the Solar Regulator so can't draw any power from the battery. It's sole source of energy to run the Display and electronics (about 10ma) will come from the Solar panel. However, obviously when the Sun goes down there will be no power for the Display/Electronics so it will lose all the stored data, restricting the data to just a '1 day' window. If you connect the 'Source' to the Solar regulator output and the 'Load' to the Sargent Power Distributor/Batteries then it will draw power from the battery all the time to keep the Display 'active' with up to a months data available on all the Solar power harvested. Bear in mind that located in the Solar Panel side of the Regulator it will measure all output from the Solar Panel, but in the battery side of the Regulator it will only monitor the power going to that battery, not to the Starter Battery on a Dual battery Regulator. If I could add my 2p worth... Pop such a piece of Chinese tat in the dustbin and buy a NASA BM1. Is your very expensive motorhome not worth spending £90 on a quality instrument?... Your choice mind B-) Or alternatively one can realise that no extra instrumentation is required. We are never on hookup and manage very well with 2 Leisure batteries and a roof mounted 100 watt solar panel (although I also carry a freestanding 90 watt panel to add if necessary). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 I have been thinking about fitting a NASA battery monitor for a while. I have a solar panel and Votronic SR330 regulator with the Votronic solar display panel, but this only indicates the state of solar charge and not the condition of the batteries. We regularly wild or camp off grid for a couple of nights but then use a site with EHU on the third day to recharge. It would be useful I think to have an indication of the state of charge and reasonable life left in the batteries so that we can judge when and whether we need to hook up better than we do now, which to be honest is more of a guestimate than an informed decision. I would like to ask when disconnecting the leisure batteries, is it sufficient to first remove the fuse from the Votronic regulator to isolate the solar input, or do I need to take any additional precautions with the solar side of the system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 747 - 2017-09-21 9:13 AM Or alternatively one can realise that no extra instrumentation is required. We are never on hookup and manage very well with 2 Leisure batteries and a roof mounted 100 watt solar panel (although I also carry a freestanding 90 watt panel to add if necessary). We are very much in this camp, one battery, one panel, and a simple voltage meter, just spent 5 days parked up in not the best of weather, more showers than sunshine, did check the voltage one evening just to see how the system was coping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 Deneb - 2017-09-21 2:32 PM I would like to ask when disconnecting the leisure batteries, is it sufficient to first remove the fuse from the Votronic regulator to isolate the solar input, or do I need to take any additional precautions with the solar side of the system? I am not sure about the Votronic SR 330 but think it has the fuse in the battery side, not fused on the Solar Panel side. Removing the fuse is effectively the same as removing the battery leads, in both cases there will suddenly be nowhere for the power surging through the Regulator to go. Most Motorhome specific Solar charger documentation states that the Solar Panel should be isolated from the regulator before any battery work is done to prevent damage to the Solar Regulator or vehicle electrics. A fuse should be installed just as the Solar cables enter the vehicle for electrical protection (a 150 watt Solar Panel can produce enough current to burn a faulted Solar regulator and start a fire) but this fuse can also be removed to enable the Solar Panel to be isolated from the Solar Charger when maintenance work is carried out. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 On the Votronic duo 250 if you pull the fuse out, in effect you are disconnecting the battery and unloading the solar panel so the output voltage rises to the same as the input voltage (19v ish), therefore the 80% LED comes on as well as the AES LED. Votronic don't recommend this although I don't know why, a controller that can't handle a slightly raised voltage belongs in the bin (lol) Despite the higher voltage, there can be no current flow with the battery disconnected, therefore no power can be dissipated (wattage) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 On the very rare occasion I have had to do anything on the solar circuit, I just chuck a piece of old carpet over the panel. It seems to lower the output somewhat. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 aandncaravan - 2017-09-21 7:42 PM Deneb - 2017-09-21 2:32 PM I would like to ask when disconnecting the leisure batteries, is it sufficient to first remove the fuse from the Votronic regulator to isolate the solar input, or do I need to take any additional precautions with the solar side of the system? I am not sure about the Votronic SR 330 but think it has the fuse in the battery side, not fused on the Solar Panel side. Removing the fuse is effectively the same as removing the battery leads, in both cases there will suddenly be nowhere for the power surging through the Regulator to go. Most Motorhome specific Solar charger documentation states that the Solar Panel should be isolated from the regulator before any battery work is done to prevent damage to the Solar Regulator or vehicle electrics. A fuse should be installed just as the Solar cables enter the vehicle for electrical protection (a 150 watt Solar Panel can produce enough current to burn a faulted Solar regulator and start a fire) but this fuse can also be removed to enable the Solar Panel to be isolated from the Solar Charger when maintenance work is carried out. . A fuse on the solar side is utterly pointless for protection. How does the fuse know whether the 10 amps flowing through it is charging the battery or starting a fire somewhere? A panel with the capability of delivering say 10 amps must have a bigger fuse, unless you want to be changing it regularly, therefore it will never blow. So great for isolation, pointless for protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocsid Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Charles - 2017-09-22 5:13 AM A fuse on the solar side is utterly pointless for protection. How does the fuse know whether the 10 amps flowing through it is charging the battery or starting a fire somewhere? A panel with the capability of delivering say 10 amps must have a bigger fuse, unless you want to be changing it regularly, therefore it will never blow. So great for isolation, pointless for protection. Well not "pointless" as it provides the reasonably easy panel side disconnect/reconnect prior to battery isolation feature many solar controllers require? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deneb Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Charles - 2017-09-21 8:56 PM On the Votronic duo 250 if you pull the fuse out, in effect you are disconnecting the battery and unloading the solar panel so the output voltage rises to the same as the input voltage (19v ish), therefore the 80% LED comes on as well as the AES LED. Votronic don't recommend this although I don't know why, a controller that can't handle a slightly raised voltage belongs in the bin (lol) Despite the higher voltage, there can be no current flow with the battery disconnected, therefore no power can be dissipated (wattage) It seems odd that Votronic include a fuse in their regulator that, if triggered, results in an overload to the unit which they don't recommend! Or am I misunderstanding? Alan, thanks for your comments. Am I right in thinking then that the best way to isolate solar before disconnecting the batteries is to cover the panel then remove its cables from the regulator input - and whilst I'm at it to fit a fuse in the panel wiring near to the roof entry point to simplify future maintenance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Deneb - 2017-09-22 8:03 AM Charles - 2017-09-21 8:56 PM On the Votronic duo 250 if you pull the fuse out, in effect you are disconnecting the battery and unloading the solar panel so the output voltage rises to the same as the input voltage (19v ish), therefore the 80% LED comes on as well as the AES LED. Votronic don't recommend this although I don't know why, a controller that can't handle a slightly raised voltage belongs in the bin (lol) Despite the higher voltage, there can be no current flow with the battery disconnected, therefore no power can be dissipated (wattage) It seems odd that Votronic include a fuse in their regulator that, if triggered, results in an overload to the unit which they don't recommend! Or am I misunderstanding? Alan, thanks for your comments. Am I right in thinking then that the best way to isolate solar before disconnecting the batteries is to cover the panel then remove its cables from the regulator input - and whilst I'm at it to fit a fuse in the panel wiring near to the roof entry point to simplify future maintenance? It doesn't overload it, and it doesn't damage it in any way. I know because a friend kept taking the fuse out and couldn't understand why the LEDs came on, I told him why, but he still emailed Votronic technical (nobody believes anything I say :-( ) They just told him not to do it, and said nothing about it damaging anything. Yes the best way to isolate is to fit an in line fuse in the cable down from the roof. You can get 'Maxi' blade fuses that are less fiddly and probably have the same size cables sticking out of them. Standard blade fuses come with thin wire connectors that don't seem to match in. I'll do mine when I get round to it. The reason they say cover the panel or do it at night is so there is no spark that could ignite battery flumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted September 22, 2017 Author Share Posted September 22, 2017 For what it’s worth, I installed my isolation fuse next to the solar regulator which is next to the habitation battery bank along with a notice warning that the solar must be isolated before disconnection of the batteries. Incidentally, my Votronic Duo 250 documentation specifically states underlined “Never operate the controller without the battery BOARD 1” ie the solar must be disconnected before disconnecting the batteries. I guess we can debate whether it’s really necessary, but then again, fitting an isolator is such a trivial job it hardly seems worth the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veletron Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Deneb - 2017-09-21 2:32 PM I have been thinking about fitting a NASA battery monitor for a while. I find mine to be very useful and an easy-fit. Here's an idea re dead space for fitting it: http://photos.veletron.com/picture.php?/168/category/222 Other pics on the same site Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Charles - 2017-09-22 5:13 AM aandncaravan - 2017-09-21 7:42 PM Deneb - 2017-09-21 2:32 PM I would like to ask when disconnecting the leisure batteries, is it sufficient to first remove the fuse from the Votronic regulator to isolate the solar input, or do I need to take any additional precautions with the solar side of the system? I am not sure about the Votronic SR 330 but think it has the fuse in the battery side, not fused on the Solar Panel side. Removing the fuse is effectively the same as removing the battery leads, in both cases there will suddenly be nowhere for the power surging through the Regulator to go. Most Motorhome specific Solar charger documentation states that the Solar Panel should be isolated from the regulator before any battery work is done to prevent damage to the Solar Regulator or vehicle electrics. A fuse should be installed just as the Solar cables enter the vehicle for electrical protection (a 150 watt Solar Panel can produce enough current to burn a faulted Solar regulator and start a fire) but this fuse can also be removed to enable the Solar Panel to be isolated from the Solar Charger when maintenance work is carried out. . A fuse on the solar side is utterly pointless for protection. How does the fuse know whether the 10 amps flowing through it is charging the battery or starting a fire somewhere? A panel with the capability of delivering say 10 amps must have a bigger fuse, unless you want to be changing it regularly, therefore it will never blow. So great for isolation, pointless for protection. I think you will find the short circuit current of most panels is higher than the 'running current'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Charles - 2017-09-22 8:48 AM Deneb - 2017-09-22 8:03 AM Charles - 2017-09-21 8:56 PM On the Votronic duo 250 if you pull the fuse out, in effect you are disconnecting the battery and unloading the solar panel so the output voltage rises to the same as the input voltage (19v ish), therefore the 80% LED comes on as well as the AES LED. Votronic don't recommend this although I don't know why, a controller that can't handle a slightly raised voltage belongs in the bin (lol) Despite the higher voltage, there can be no current flow with the battery disconnected, therefore no power can be dissipated (wattage) It seems odd that Votronic include a fuse in their regulator that, if triggered, results in an overload to the unit which they don't recommend! Or am I misunderstanding? Alan, thanks for your comments. Am I right in thinking then that the best way to isolate solar before disconnecting the batteries is to cover the panel then remove its cables from the regulator input - and whilst I'm at it to fit a fuse in the panel wiring near to the roof entry point to simplify future maintenance? It doesn't overload it, and it doesn't damage it in any way. I know because a friend kept taking the fuse out and couldn't understand why the LEDs came on, I told him why, but he still emailed Votronic technical (nobody believes anything I say :-( ) They just told him not to do it, and said nothing about it damaging anything. Yes the best way to isolate is to fit an in line fuse in the cable down from the roof. You can get 'Maxi' blade fuses that are less fiddly and probably have the same size cables sticking out of them. Standard blade fuses come with thin wire connectors that don't seem to match in. I'll do mine when I get round to it. The reason they say cover the panel or do it at night is so there is no spark that could ignite battery flumes. If a Solar charger is putting significant power into a battery via the power controller, as most quality manufacturers recommend, and the load of the battery is suddenly removed, the Solar Charger electronics can be slow to react causing a spike on the output. This then goes into the Motorhome 12v systems and can exceed the rating of the component inside the regulator causing failure to the regulator AND any 12v connected devices. It isn't just the regulator at risk of damage. Hence why Schaudt, who know a little bit more about Motorhome battery charging than anyone else, state in the LR1218 manual : "5 Electrical connection The output voltage of the charge regulator is not suitable for direct supply without battery. Malfunction of or damage to connected consumers : 1. Do not operate the solar charge regulator without a battery. 2. Disconnect connector ”Plus Solar module(s)” on the solar charge regulator before changing or removing the battery. 3 The solar charge regulator may only be used in buffer mode with lead acid or lead gel batteries with a minimum rating of 55 Ah". Schaudt Elektroblock charging systems are installed in more Motorhomes Worldwide than any other charger, so they should know a bit more than you and I? Covering over the Solar panel is just as good to prevent power reaching the Solar charger. But as for the Votronic fuse fitments primary function? A fuse is primarily about Electrical safety in isolating the unit so it doesn't catch fire, That is not always compatible with protecting the electronics inside the unit, which in anycase will most likely have already failed to trigger the fuse 'blowing' Charles, You are making the assumption the Solar charger electronics will react instantly, but they don't. If you want to remove the battery Leads to risk your Fridge Controller electronics, Truma Heating, etc. that is up to you. One Dometic Fridge Controller we saw for sale recently was over £300. OUR advice is aimed at helping people minimise issues. Votronic say, "Never operate the controller without the battery" and also advised your friend NOT to remove the fuse, yet you tell everyone to do so. That sounds more about trying to contradict what we said than helping people with good advice. If we are wrong, it is an unnecessary step that people are taking, if you are wrong it will cost people big money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 This attack has really hacked me off, probably the Chemotherapy making me feel rubbish and causing me to over react, but this seems like a good time to pack it all in. Bye everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagey Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 hi alan although we have not exchanged q and a on batterys, chargers, and solar i always read all your excellent advice and as yet not blown anything up i can understand that you feel a little ratty but you and nick fisher are the 2 techies of this site and if either of you was to give up you would be sadly missed just my thoughts and i would think many others i wish you well pagey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.