ellen Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Any recommendations for air suspension fitting on Fiat Ducato X250 midlands area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Depends whether it's based on an ALCO chassis or Fiat chassis (leaf springs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellen Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 Fiat chassis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJay Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 ellen - 2017-07-13 8:28 PM Any recommendations for air suspension fitting on Fiat Ducato X250 midlands area? We had ours fitted by a Fiat Commercial Garage, Not i your area though. Google Fiat commercial , and you should find one local for you. You need a commercial garage, as many garages do not have the ramp for large vehicles We had the Dunlop fitted, Makes for a better ride and cornering PJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellen Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 The vehicle is a MWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Suggest you contact http://www.svtech.co.uk for installers of air suspension in your area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Suggest you contact Dave Newell LVS based at Telford (I assume Telford is “Midlands area?) http://davenewell.co.uk/contact/ Dave writes for Practical Motorhome magazine (“Diamond Dave”) and has an excellent reputation for good workmanship. The following links relate: http://davenewell.co.uk/air-suspension/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellen Posted July 14, 2017 Author Share Posted July 14, 2017 Thanks for the video link very informative. He's not too far away from us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted July 16, 2017 Share Posted July 16, 2017 No great job any garage should be able to do it. I did my own in less than 2 hrs and never lifted a wheel off the ground. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-DUCATO-AIR-SUSPENSION-KIT-for-Motorhome-Recovery-/182640647855?epid=588416797&hash=item2a863b1eaf:g:m~YAAOSwu4BVwda~ Still ok 3 yrs and 27000 mls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 I notice that fitting ‘air suspension’ to Ellen’s Campereve motorhome was discussed at some length in this May 2017 forum thread http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Air-suspension/47118/#M532666 Ellen, I suggest you ask Dave Newell (or anyone you contact regarding fitting air suspension to your vehicle) what the likelihood is of it being worthwhile and what’s the best system to go for. Although a basic kit can be obtained for less than £300 (witzend’s link) and DIY installation should be straightforward and not take long, if you get the work carried out professionally (and properly) the overall cost will rise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Derek Uzzell - 2017-07-17 7:54 AM Although a basic kit can be obtained for less than £300 (witzend’s link) and DIY installation should be straightforward and not take long, if you get the work carried out professionally (and properly) the overall cost will rise. And all professionals won't do it properly but the cost will Rise. If anyone wants more than £80 to fit your being ripped off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 That depends on the system chosen. If gauges are to be fitted the installation time will increase and, if a compressor is also specified, the installation time will rise even further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Ellen Why you like air suspension? What are your expatations? The most expensive system have about 15 percent maxium better .driving quality whit air assited front seats. Dunlop is a air assist to your leaf springs very well developed but very complicatred.. The ultimate is that you remove the front struts and rear leaf springs and have a goldschmitt 4 corner suspension on your ducato. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Having re- read Ellen's previous thread on this subject I am doubtful about fitting air suspension to a 5.5 metre panel van as the benefit is likely to be limited if at all.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Mike In her earlier enquiry about air suspension Ellen explained why she was considering having it fitted to her Campereve panel-van-conversion (PVC) and said that she had previously owned several coachbuilt motorhomes and a VW-based PVC. Although you were (and are) adamant that fitting ‘air-assist’ to Ellen’s PVC will be a waste of money, she has experimented with reducing the vehicle’s tyre pressures and this has not addressed her dislike of the vehicle’s harsh ride quality. Although there was general scepticism regarding the effectiveness of the air-assist approach for a PVC with Ellen’s Campereve’s specification, there was one positive comment (bikey’s) that suggested the approach would be worth trying. I note that Dave Newell advises that he fits Dunlop air-suspension products and I’d expect a Dunlop rear air-assist kit (with a pressure gauge) to cost, say, £430 and on top of this would be the installation charge. It’s pot-luck whether fitting air-assist to Ellen’s motorhome will have a miraculous effect on its ride quality and its going to cost a not inconsiderable sum to have it done. I can’t see any firm that fits air-assist kits offering a money-back guarantee that Ellen’s current ride-quality criticisms will be fully resolved, but realistic options for improving the ride are limited. Even if the benefit turns out to be limited, it may be enough to justify having had the work done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Thanks Derek. I have re-read our respective comments on the earlier thread. It seemed to me that Ellen was comparing the ride on her previous vehicle - a VW T5 with her current MWB vehicle. This fact might have been lost when others commented. The ride on a V5 is virtually car like and I believe she is comparing apples with pears. I cannot recall any previous criticisms here, or anywhere else, of the ride on a MWB Fiat vehicle, and having myself had a panel van (albeit a 6m version) with air assist bellows ( to deal with a grounding issue due to the slope on my drive), I simply cannot see the benefit of the type of suspension Ellen requires to deal with ride harshness. If anything bellows stiffens the suspension and if set too low the rear of the vehicle becomes unstable in certain conditions. On other types of motorhome there is a considerable benefit but not on a MWB van. However if Ellen wants to invest in air suspension then so be it but I am merely expressing a view based on my own experience of the type of suspension Ellen requires. You too are sceptical. Ellen might get the result she requires but I remain doubtful that she will get the improvement she desires. Perhaps she should ring Dave Newell for advice as he gives out good advice freely on his slot on the Motorhome Channel and once was a regular poster on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 My ride problems on a 3m wheelbase Hymer A Class with Alko chassis have been discussed on this forum in the past. No firm would guarantee whether semi air suspension would improve the ride quality but all felt it would. I went with the Goldschmitt system in the end. If just the rear axle is the problem, then semi air suspension should help but it is a leap in hope. If it's the front or both axles, then new springs at the front may [also] be required - VB Air Suspension call these 'comfort springs'. Semi air suspension has improved the rear axle ride on my van although a Goldschmitt system is considerably more expensive than a Dunlop system. Running with half a tank of fresh water - 65l and tank between axles - makes a positive difference. I've used Diamond Dave [Dave Newell] a few times over the years. An honest artisan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvin marvin Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Brock - 2017-07-18 9:16 AM My ride problems on a 3m wheelbase Hymer A Class with Alko chassis have been discussed on this forum in the past. No firm would guarantee whether semi air suspension would improve the ride quality but all felt it would. I went with the Goldschmitt system in the end. If just the rear axle is the problem, then semi air suspension should help but it is a leap in hope. If it's the front or both axles, then new springs at the front may [also] be required - VB Air Suspension call these 'comfort springs'. Semi air suspension has improved the rear axle ride on my van although a Goldschmitt system is considerably more expensive than a Dunlop system. Running with half a tank of fresh water - 65l and tank between axles - makes a positive difference. I've used Diamond Dave [Dave Newell] a fewer times over the years. An honest artisan. On our B584 I choose to fit MAD springs on the rear. What a difference! for much less expense. Check them outside my advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I haven't seen the results of Ellen's visit to a weighbridge to obtain the individual axle, and actual laden weight, of her van. So if they are there, I'm afraid I've missed them. I'm therefore going to repeat the suggestion that she does this before she spends any money on speculative improvements via air assistance. The van should be fully laden, as when in use, and should have all passengers, dogs, food, water, camping kit, fuel, gas and whatever on board. In short, it should be at the heaviest it is ever likely to be when in use. Armed with the results, she should first check that both axles and the overall weight are within their plated limits. It is just possible that the harsh ride she is experiencing is due to overload, with the resultant settling of the suspension onto its bump-stops when compressed. Assuming all is OK, if she takes the individual axle loads and relays them to Continental's technical department, together with the tyre data from the sidewall, they will advise the pressures appropriate for the actual axle loads on her van. It isn't entirely clear whether previous advice obtained was on this basis. Then set the tyres to the recommended pressures, and see if the result is acceptable. This will cost nothing, and may give the desired result. If this yields no improvement, and particularly if the van is being used relatively light, it is probable that the suspension, designed as it will have been for the maximum permissible axle loads at both ends, is insufficiently compliant for comfort at the actual load carried. I don't think adding air assistance would be likely to improve that situation, since for the air assisters to notably soften the ride, some of the axle load would have to be transferred to them before their softer characteristics would influence ride quality. As an aside, if the van is running light relative to its limits, it might be that adding weight would improve the ride. Most vehicles smooth out and quieten when relatively heavy compared to their behaviour when lightly laden. OTOH, if the rear axle is running close to or at its maximum limit (possible, as a lot of PVCs are built on the 3,300kg chassis), air assistance could be helpful, as there would then be scope to inflate the air springs sufficiently to share the load, so softening the ride somewhat. Full air would be the ultimate remedy, possibly also with a change to alloy wheels (but only if the latter give a significant reduction in unsprung weight), but at a cost of several thousand pounds. As said above, these are somewhat crude commercial vehicles, not built with passenger (or driver) comfort as a prime consideration. They are tough, but they ride hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monique.hubrechtsgm Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Iam not familar whit Ellen's Van driving position and behavior loaded. Try to find out a test drive of a similar van who has fitted them and claimed a much better drive. You are familar whithout and can compare. Only AL-KO provide this. But not for Vans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellen Posted July 18, 2017 Author Share Posted July 18, 2017 Thanks for all the comments it's all very interesting. To clear up some points we have one leaf spring that's flat. We are riding on the bump stop. We had the van weighed fully loaded bikes on the back row bar mounted, rear passengers etc. Full tank of fuel. The van weighed 3130kg. giving us 170kg to spare. We have checked the tyres pressures with Continental as advised. We have been in contact with Dave Newell and are mulling over the possibility of Dunlop air suspension. At the cost of approx £500 including labour. Possibly easy to do you yourself if your agile and not riddled with Arthritis. Thanks again to all. Next episode to follow!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witzend Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 ellen - 2017-07-18 8:21 PM We are riding on the bump stop This is normal its not a bump stop it's a spring assistor on these vans But heres an alternative which would have been my choice if I had been aware of them http://www.leafspringassister.co.uk/peugeot-boxer-relay-ducato/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 This YouTube video-clip relates to Ducato vans’ rear suspension However, it should be noted that the vehicle in the clip has double leaf-springs and that there is a sizeable air-gap between the top spring’s upper surface and the bottom of the bump-stop. In this instance, as long as the air-gap remains when the vehicle is loaded, removing the bump-stops and replacing them with air-bellows is unlikely to improve a harsh ride quality. These two 2011 forum threads discussed an MOT-test failure and contain several useful photos. http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Ducato-X250-failed-rear-leaf-springs/23404/ http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Ducato-X250-rear-leaf-springs-MOT-issues/23529/ The MOT Inspection Manual carries the caveat “A suspension bump stop must no be confused with rubber/synthetic suspension spring assisters” but the terms are regularly used interchangeably (see attached photo) and it won’t always be easy for MOT testers to decide how to apply the Manual’s guidance when there is no air-gap and the leaf-spring (as in Ellen’s Campereve’s case) is ‘flat’. Assuming that Ellen’s motorhome’s stance is not tail-down (or nose-up) beefing up the springing of the rear suspension by adding supplementary coil springs will be unproductive and - in any case - would not address Ellen’s criticism of the vehicle’s ride quality. The link provided by witzend describes the purpose of the leaf-spring coil assisters as follows “...These Assisters/ Spring helpers will help with returning your vehicle back to the height it was from new or help when loaded up. These kits are also known as Spring Raisers, Auxilary Springs, Spring helpers.” If Ellen’s motorhome were normally tail-down, or sagged at the rear when fully loaded, coil-spring assisters would raise the vehicle’s rear end. But - unlike air-assist - coil-spring assisters have no adjustability and there would be a real risk of picking too ‘strong’ or too ‘weak’ coil-springs. In my posting of 26 May 2017 1:54 PM here http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Air-suspension/47118/#M532666 I gave sample tyre inflation-presure data from Continental’s Technical Handbook and said "If Ellen were to have her motorhome weighed in a representative loaded state (ie. with whatever people, water, gas, baggage and ‘stuff’ that is normally carried on-board) to establish its real-world axle loadings, it might be possible to safely reduce the above pressures but (as Keith has said) if high pressures were being used originally and were contributing to the harsh noisy ride, minor pressure reductions won’t make much difference.” Although Ellen’s Campereve has been weighed fully-loaded and found to be 170kg under its 3300kg maximum overall weight, it’s axle-loadings that matter when it comes to choosing tyre pressures. Ellen has said "We have checked the tyres pressures with Continental as advised”, but what axle-loadings were given to Continental to allow meaningful feedback to be provided? Realistically, there are two options to address the Campereve’s ride quality: 1: Use tyre pressures that are as low as possible but still ’safe’. This requires the motorhome’s fully-loaded axle-loadings to be measured, but there are no other expenses. 2: Have air-assist fitted that will get rid of the bump-stop, provide springing adjustability and (based on Ellen’s ‘flat spring/bump-stop’ description and coupled with lower tyre pressures) has a sporting chance of improving the ride at the vehicle’s rear. But that’s going to cost around £500. In Ellen’s shoes, I’d reduce the tyre pressures right down (say 50psi (front axle) and 60psi (rear axle) if the axle-loadings will safely allow this) and use the vehicle for, say, a thousand miles. If the ride-quality were still considered overly harsh at the end of that experiment I’d have air-assist fitted. If that failed to result in the ride-quality being considerd acceptable, I’d go back to a VW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blaven Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I fitted Dunlop units from Marcle two years ago to my Murvi Morello Fiat X244 LWB van. Whilst not eliminating the previously harsh ride completely, they have certainly made an improvement to our overall comfort, and the van certainly corners more assuredly. This after touring Scandinavia last year It is noticeable when I reduce pressure to 5 psi prior to winter storage, the drive to my storage facility is noticeably harsher and the van's rear wallows more. I normally have about 25psi in them. It is important, prior to jacking the rear up for any reason, to reduce the pressure on that side to almost nil. So, for me, £420 was a good investment. Dunlop units can also have the rubber doughnuts replaced should they fail for any reason. (Just realised I posted a similar comment on 27th. May. My apologies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldi Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Morning all, My previous ducato with a gross of 3300 was very hard and firm . It was for this reason that I had vb full air on my current van which is grossed at 3500 but on the heavy chassis, when loaded up it is superb to drive but slightly bumpy when empty. both 4m wheelbase norm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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