Second hand motorhome price fixing.

[Noody]

Last poster. Thank you, and yes.

 

Oh, by the way Brian.

 

I wouldn't allow anyone to test for damp in my van with one of those dreadful things that measure the surface, or just below surface, conductivity. It's a joke and a con.

 

A proper professional tool is none invasive and measures at varying depth by reading changes in density and whilst this require a little more intellect the tool does have instructions for it's use.

 

£600 though, or more.

 

 

[John52]

Noody - 2017-08-22 1:16 PM

 

Last poster. Thank you, and yes.

 

Oh, by the way Brian.

 

I wouldn't allow anyone to test for damp in my van with one of those dreadful things that measure the surface, or just below surface, conductivity. It's a joke and a con.

 

A proper professional tool is none invasive and measures at varying depth by reading changes in density and whilst this require a little more intellect the tool does have instructions for it's use.

 

£600 though, or more.

 

 

Failing that the best damp tester is probably your nose.

If you smell damp. walk away.

[John52]

Brian Kirby - 2017-08-22 12:43 PM

 

I broadly agree with all the above comments. As a cabinet maker, you can sell your product for what your customers are prepared to pay. If you ask too much, you don't sell. If you produce bad work, your reputation suffers. If you don't make what is wanted, you go broke. If you get all three right, you earn a reasonable living.

Depending on the competition - which is so often ignored.

In Benidorm I saw breakfasts being offered for one Euro.

Beer one Euro a pint.

Yet people still go out there and open up another bar :-S

The guy who seemed to be doing best was the signwriter, sometimes making 3 new signs for the same premises in one year.

[michaelmorris]

Although we've only ever bought the one motorhome (2ndhand from a dealer), we've bought a fair number of secondhand cars over the years. Our motorhome had an undisclosed damp problem around the bathroom window which we discovered 3 months after buying it. We contacted the dealer straight away, who immediately offered to carry out a comprehensive repair at no cost.

 

We've always bought on the basis of expecting to spend between 10% and 20% of the purchase price on 1st year unexpected repairs. On one occasion it was higher on this, on several others weve had no nasty surprises at all.

 

 

 

[Noody]

michaelmorris - 2017-08-22 1:37 PM

 

 

We've always bought on the basis of expecting to spend between 10% and 20% of the purchase price on 1st year unexpected repairs. On one occasion it was higher on this, on several others weve had no nasty surprises at all.

 

 

 

So would it have been a nice option to buy a van where every conceivable effort had been made to identify and fix habitation and mechanical problems ? And would you have paid more ?

 

Just 10% more perhaps ?

 

For the Naysayers. 10% of £27000 is getting close to £3000 pounds. Or is it £300 ?

 

QUESTION.

And I do know some answers, who amongst the contributors to this thread are dealers or associated in some way with dealers ?

[euroserv]

I don't normally get into the non technical problem threads but this one was interesting.

 

I completely agree with your frustration and would have felt pretty unhappy with the situation. I would have handled things differently though.

 

I would have advertised the vehicle privately and paid for a large enough spot to tell everyone about the problems that you have had, while explaining that all have been fixed so that any prospective purchaser would be sure that this is without doubt the best example of this vehicle available today. I would then have asked for a price that was roughly half way between what the dealer would pay you as a trade in and what he would have been selling it for on his forecourt.

 

I love to see 'warts and all' adverts that also include all the answers and prove that a fastidious owner has done their best to maintain and improve the vehicle. This sort of thing gets noticed and can encourage dealers to be more thorough about their preparation work on used vehicles so that they can offer similar assurances while making sure that other buyers know the right questions to ask and what to look for. This is also one of the benefits of a forum like this. To make people better informed. It's not all about scare-mongering and i certainly don't like it when a few owners close ranks and pooh pooh a problem to protect their own investment. I say make it public. Get a discussion started and if you are the only one with a problem; so be it but these words will be around long after we are gone and it may help someone one day make a more informed choice about a vintage motorhome purchase!

N

[michaelmorris]

Noody - 2017-08-22 2:54 PM

 

michaelmorris - 2017-08-22 1:37 PM

 

 

We've always bought on the basis of expecting to spend between 10% and 20% of the purchase price on 1st year unexpected repairs. On one occasion it was higher on this, on several others weve had no nasty surprises at all.

 

 

 

So would it have been a nice option to buy a van where every conceivable effort had been made to identify and fix habitation and mechanical problems ? And would you have paid more ?

 

Just 10% more perhaps ?

 

For the Naysayers. 10% of £27000 is getting close to £3000 pounds. Or is it £300 ?

 

We paid extra for the van by buying it from a dealer, that gave us the peace of mind that, if there were any 'surprises' (i.e. the damp issue) we could get them to sort it out.

 

Should the dealer have sold us the van with a (in hindsight) pretty obvious damp issue? - absolutely not. But they are essentially secondhand car dealers, so we went in with our eyes open. The issue is that the premium we paid of going through a dealer meant we could get them to fix the problem.

 

Of course the price should reflect the condition, but there are so many potential problems compared to buying a car my feeling is that you're going to be just plain lucky if you pick up a secondhand (In our case 12 year old) van with no issues.

 

As the van gets older we expect that more and more things will go wrong and have tried to budget accordingly.

[Mike B.]

Noody - 2017-08-22 2:54 PM

 

michaelmorris - 2017-08-22 1:37 PM

 

 

We've always bought on the basis of expecting to spend between 10% and 20% of the purchase price on 1st year unexpected repairs. On one occasion it was higher on this, on several others weve had no nasty surprises at all.

 

 

 

So would it have been a nice option to buy a van where every conceivable effort had been made to identify and fix habitation and mechanical problems ? And would you have paid more ?

 

Just 10% more perhaps ?

 

For the Naysayers. 10% of £27000 is getting close to £3000 pounds. Or is it £300 ?

 

QUESTION.

And I do know some answers, who amongst the contributors to this thread are dealers or associated in some way with dealers ?

 

Well I'm not-I'm just a realist who realises anything in the world is worth what someone is prepared to pay. In this day and age I think anyone who would want to pay £3k over the dealer price for a van that has had a lot of repairs (and may need a lot more-who knows) would be very hard to find. Furthermore, if you have kept it 3 years longer than required to rectify the problems, you probably shot yourself in the foot with a further 3 year depreciation in value of the original dealer price of 2014!

I think I would have 'got rid' 3 years ago!

Mike

[Bop]

Noody - 2017-08-22 2:54 PM

 

michaelmorris - 2017-08-22 1:37 PM

 

 

We've always bought on the basis of expecting to spend between 10% and 20% of the purchase price on 1st year unexpected repairs. On one occasion it was higher on this, on several others weve had no nasty surprises at all.

 

 

 

QUESTION.

And I do know some answers, who amongst the contributors to this thread are dealers or associated in some way with dealers ?

 

Hi Richard, do tell mate. I'm not versed up on the inside line.

 

Also, I think it's quite shocking just how much the dealers ask for some of their knackered pieces of crap on their forecourts. There's a van on a dealers forecourt close to me which has a screen price of £15,000 and yet if it was a conventional transit van then you probably couldn't get a scarp merchant to take it away.

 

All the best,

 

Andrew

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Tracker - 2017-08-21 7:35 PM

 

tonyg3nwl - 2017-08-21 1:36 PM

 

Dont worry..enjoy your outings while you have it, ..you could be 6 feet under tomorrow!

 

 

Yup - that about sums it up!

 

Yep- If I add up the sums I've spent over the last 26 years on Horace, I expect it'll run into 1000's ;-) .........

 

If I include what I've spent on building garages for him.......that'll run into 10's of 1000's 8-) ........

 

At least I got back more than what I spent on his garages B-) ........

 

So in my experience if you don't want to lose money on motorhomes :D .......

 

Don't buy one........... just build a garage for one (lol) ...........

 

 

[Noody]

Furthermore, if you have kept it 3 years longer than required to rectify the problems, you probably shot yourself in the foot with a further 3 year depreciation in value of the original dealer price of 2014!

I think I would have 'got rid' 3 years ago!

Mike

 

If I had offered my van to a dealer three years ago the dealer may have given 20.000. Put it on his forecourt at £27.000.accepted £26.000 though with a 14 years old vehicle only given a mechanical warranty of three months. The purchaser would be faced with £3000 worth of work though not all showing it's face at the same time because most is hidden from view.

 

With the Burstner pricing hasn't changed much in ten years never mind three years. If the same buyer were to buy that van van now, from me, he would get a written detail of the work done accompanied by a full service and repair record, a damp test and habition inspection report if I can find someone who won't go around poking holes in my van. I would ask £30.000, buyer might offer £27.000, I might accept £28.000 and if the deal is done the buyer would have a thirteen years old van where no stone was left unturned to find fault and repair those faults. Both the purchaser and vendor get what they need but the horse-trader continues to trade without taking any responsibilities at worst.

 

If that same horse trader spent a few hours looking in the horses mouth and up its bum, then illustrating exactly what he is selling the whole system would be more balanced.

 

Last year a pal bought a three years old motorhome from a local dealer, local in these parts is two hours drive away. That van went back to the dealer for warranty work four times because the dealer couldn't be bothered to spend the time looking for faults. One of the faults was so bad the warranty involved Fiat. The dealer I'm illustrating is huge in terms of numbers of vehicles in stock though tiny in terms of workshop facility for owners that pay for work so it's little surprise unpaid work like inspection is avoided.

 

I'm really surprised by the number of contributors to this thread who think I'm stupid, the whole reason for this thread is that dealers in used vans set prices but do not set good standards. Often just spinning vehicles round.

 

 

[747]

I am amazed that you have just discovered how things work in this branch of the Leisure Industry. As far as I am concerned, prices for everything, right down to small accessories are vastly overpriced. It is the same with anything Leisure related. I have just bought a non motorhome related item from Germany because the identical item bought online from a British supplier is almost double the price ... and I got free delivery.

 

Since your Burstner was built there has been great changes in motorhome dealerships. Some large companies have gone, others have merged and some have come and gone. Maybe they are working to a different agenda nowadays to avoid bankruptcy. Welcome to the modern world.

[Tracker]

If you buy a van, and the older the worse they tend to be, you can always find faults.

 

Dealers being dealers, or as Brian says horse traders, they want to maximise their profit and so do not go looking for faults as they, understandably, would rather splash their cash on other things.

 

If the customer finds faults the dealer should put them right but many dealers will duck and weave to avoid doing so. A warranty helps as long as the faults that emerge are within it's parameters - but warranties are a whole new can of worms!

 

If the customer fails to find faults then the dealer profits - simples!

 

Given that many people sell their van with hidden faults the phrase 'caveat emptor' always applies when buying anything used.

 

You can advertise your van at what price you like but surely the over inflated dealer retail prices would work in your favour in getting the most for your van and the dealer margin does not come into it, unless you want to trade it in or sell to a dealer?

 

Your van is worth what somebody will pay for it and if you advertise it long enough and wide enough you may, or may not, get your price.

 

Personally I would never dream of paying that sort of money for a van that old, but others may be lured if it is in exceptional condition.

 

It really is a very simple situation of market forces and supply and demand and I relly don't know why this conversation is dragging on like it is?

[crocs]

Noody - 2017-08-23 7:23 AM

 

Furthermore, if you have kept it 3 years longer than required to rectify the problems, you probably shot yourself in the foot with a further 3 year depreciation in value of the original dealer price of 2014!

I think I would have 'got rid' 3 years ago!

Mike

 

If I had offered my van to a dealer three years ago the dealer may have given 20.000. Put it on his forecourt at £27.000.accepted £26.000 though with a 14 years old vehicle only given a mechanical warranty of three months. The purchaser would be faced with £3000 worth of work though not all showing it's face at the same time because most is hidden from view.

 

With the Burstner pricing hasn't changed much in ten years never mind three years. If the same buyer were to buy that van van now, from me, he would get a written detail of the work done accompanied by a full service and repair record, a damp test and habition inspection report if I can find someone who won't go around poking holes in my van. I would ask £30.000, buyer might offer £27.000, I might accept £28.000 and if the deal is done the buyer would have a thirteen years old van where no stone was left unturned to find fault and repair those faults. Both the purchaser and vendor get what they need but the horse-trader continues to trade without taking any responsibilities at worst.

 

If that same horse trader spent a few hours looking in the horses mouth and up its bum, then illustrating exactly what he is selling the whole system would be more balanced.

 

Last year a pal bought a three years old motorhome from a local dealer, local in these parts is two hours drive away. That van went back to the dealer for warranty work four times because the dealer couldn't be bothered to spend the time looking for faults. One of the faults was so bad the warranty involved Fiat. The dealer I'm illustrating is huge in terms of numbers of vehicles in stock though tiny in terms of workshop facility for owners that pay for work so it's little surprise unpaid work like inspection is avoided.

 

I'm really surprised by the number of contributors to this thread who think I'm stupid, the whole reason for this thread is that dealers in used vans set prices but do not set good standards. Often just spinning vehicles round.

 

 

Good luck with your sale. Come back and let us know how much you sold it for.

[Tracker]

Noody - 2017-08-23 7:23 AM

 

I'm really surprised by the number of contributors to this thread who think I'm stupid, the whole reason for this thread is that dealers in used vans set prices but do not set good standards. Often just spinning vehicles round.

 

 

I don't think it is fair to chuck such accusations around just because others disagree with your thinking and it is hardly the best way to elicit support from those very same people.

 

It used to be called debate but the modern take seems to be I'm right and everyone else is wrong?

 

Regardless of the past which cannot be changed with the benefit of hindsight, we are where we are and the best way forward is what counts.

 

[Noody]

 

I don't think it is fair to chuck such accusations around just because others disagree with your thinking and it is hardly the best way to elicit support from those very same people.

 

 

 

Sorry, it wasn't meant the way it sounds and I really have felt quite stupid and struggled to represent my feelings at times.

 

 

[StuartO]

Noody - 2017-08-24 4:14 AM

I don't think it is fair to chuck such accusations around just because others disagree with your thinking and it is hardly the best way to elicit support from those very same people.

Sorry, it wasn't meant the way it sounds and I really have felt quite stupid and struggled to represent my feelings at times.

 

I didn't read your post that way and don't suppose many others did either.

 

Don't worry about Tracker, he's not been well and this is just him getting back to being his usual pontificating self!

 

[Bulletguy]

747 - 2017-08-23 8:30 AM

 

I am amazed that you have just discovered how things work in this branch of the Leisure Industry. As far as I am concerned, prices for everything, right down to small accessories are vastly overpriced. It is the same with anything Leisure related. I have just bought a non motorhome related item from Germany because the identical item bought online from a British supplier is almost double the price ... and I got free delivery.

I couldn't agree more with this and the manufacture of many accessories and parts are very poor too. The ludicrous prices just make matters worse. Whilst away recently a Dutch couple parked up next to me and they'd had quite a nasty experience of a roof vent suddenly parting company and flying off with an almighty crack as they were driving along. Fortunately for them, the motorhome was rented so it cost them nothing, but as they said it made them realise just how delicate and flimsy everything in motorhomes are.

 

Overall UK pricing is quite ridiculous anyway (look forward to further increases coming soon!) so i'm not surprised at your experience regards Germany. My water pump failed whilst in Germany and i got my van into the nearest Garage which turned out to be a VW Main Dealer. They charged me just over £300 including parts (new pump and belts) and labour......yet my local independent Garage charged me almost £100 for an oil change and filter yesterday!

 

For m/h accessories in UK there is one dealer i make an exception for and i've mentioned this chaps business before; https://www.thecaravanshop.co.uk/index.php

 

I've bought a fair bit of stuff from him over the years as even with p&p costs (which are always reasonable), his item prices are cheaper than what local accessory shops are charging.

[Tracker]

StuartODon't worry about Tracker, he's not been well and this is just him getting back to being his usual pontificating self!

Don't pay too much regard to Stuart as he is a known nasty work of art who has fallen out with most people in the short time he has been on the forum.

[Tracker]

Noody - 2017-08-23 1:14 PM

 

 

I don't think it is fair to chuck such accusations around just because others disagree with your thinking and it is hardly the best way to elicit support from those very same people.

 

 

 

Sorry, it wasn't meant the way it sounds and I really have felt quite stupid and struggled to represent my feelings at times.

 

 

No problem, it didn't offend me and I certainly do not regard you as stupid.

[euroserv]

Before this falls off a cliff completely I would like to say that a very fair point has been made and it applies to most used whatever dealers. I would hope that a broader realisation that the supposed comfort and security that we kind of expect the huge dealer margin to provide is at best a myth and at worst a terrible lie would eventually lead to more people buying and selling privately; at more reasonable prices and with independent inspections and after-market warranties being as commonplace as they are in the car market.

The buyer should be wary and armed to the teeth with professional help.

Should this change be unwelcome to the dealers and they can no longer afford their stately sites without the unjustifiable margins on used vehicles or accessories; well they might just have to do a better job.

Plenty of industries have found themselves falling out of favour and had to reinvent themselves over the years. Maybe it's time for change here. In the meantime... more private sales is the only way forwards.

[StuartO]

Tracker - 2017-08-24 6:29 AM

StuartODon't worry about Tracker, he's not been well and this is just him getting back to being his usual pontificating self!

Don't pay too much regard to Stuart as he is a known nasty work of art who has fallen out with most people in the short time he has been on the forum.

 

Not got your sense of humour back yet then. :-D

 

[Brian Kirby]

Agreed, Richard makes a vary fair point. Would that the world was as he would prefer it to be. If it was, we should all be better off.

 

I think that all in reality all any of us ageing cynics have been saying is that it isn't, and we have just become accustomed to navigating the world as, unfortunately, it is. Sadly, trust exacts a high fee.

[John52]

I've looked round motorhome dealers and started to add up the costs of all those motorhomes standing rotting away, being pullled about by visitors, needing constant valeting, security, rent, business rates, heat and light, wages, national insurance, 20% VAT, warranty repairs, etc etc.

Needs some mark up to pay for all that...

If anyone thinks its easy money they might try it for themselves?

[Noody]

I suppose the subject of dealer pricing being the influence has been well-aired, whilst I hear what you are saying, I don't accept it and avoid dealers in the case of motorhomes.

 

I doubt I'm still a motorhome virgin because I learnt a lot in the 9 years I owned this van which has been my first. I was looking for an Elegance i591 for two years knowing I had to pay a lot more for an A class compared to caravan stuffed onto the back of a Fiat chassis/cab. I wonder if Mr Tracker knows the difference because even though 2004 to 2006 i591 are priced around £27.995 (Why do they do that ?) can we call it 28.000. At least two have been advertised over £30.000. One was sold by Southdowns and advertised at £32.000 but they wouldn't tell me how much they let it go for or any other details.

 

I've been offered £27.000 for my lemon, I would have taken £28.000. I'll keep my van, I'll keep on attending to each and every issue that needs attention and keep instructing my garage to look for work when the van goes on the lift.

 

I'm the worlds worst liar or conman preferring honesty and can detect bullshxt just by the look on a face so I assume you-all may have similar skills.