Habitation electrics stopped working

[Kevin1946]

Help please,( Elddis 400rl 2004 on a MWB Boxer 290 1.9 )

Yesterday I drove 195 miles from Wicklow to Doneygall 4 hours & a bit without an issue.stayed for about 4 hours using TV water pump etc,started back before dusk with lights,heater,wipers and fridge all on.

After an hour (40 ish miles) the battery warning light came on ( it was charging ok) I continued on for another 140 miles home with the red warning light on.

When I got home the habitation electrics would not work

No battery reading on the gauge when on AUX or on BATT no lights no pump no fridge ignition nothing

The auxiliary battery was fully charged when we started and showing 12.8 when starting home ( tv is 12 led)

Any ideas please.It drove perfectly at 50 to 70 mph and averaged 27 mpg over a 395 mile round trip I was delighted with it.

Kevin Deasy

[Derek Uzzell]

The 'red warning light’ illuminating when a vehicle’s motor is running normally indicates that charge (or insufficient charge) is not being provided to the vehicle’s starter-battery. Common causes might be the alternator’s drive-belt breaking or slipping, or the alternator having developed a fault.

 

How did you know that “...(it was charging OK)...” despite the red light being on? Did you take a voltage reading at the starter-battery’s terminals or what? I’d expect there to be over 14V at the terminals with the vehicle’s motor running (and lights/wipers/heater not switched on) if the alternator were charging properly. On the other hand, if the alternator were not charging, 3 hours of driving with lights/wipers/heater operating would put a heavy strain on the starter-battery.

 

Assuming that the red light is still on (you haven’t said if that’s so) the first thing to do is confirm that the alternator is charging the starter-battery and whether the leisure-battery is also being charged.

 

It sounds like an alternator-related fault developed on your trip home and (somehow or other) the vehicle’s lights/wipers/heater/fridge all ran from the leisure-battery for 3 hours, flattening the leisure-battery in the process - which, of course, would explain why the habitation electrics would not work. Dunno if that’s technically likely, but the obvious thing to check first is what the alternator is doing charging-wise.

 

This ASOF thread may be of use

 

http://www.autosleeper-ownersforum.com/t16644-dreaded-red-battery-light

 

 

[alanedwin]

Must agree with Derek.

Our merc based van exhibited the exact same symptoms in Holland last year and it turned out the alternator was on the way out.

For such a young van I think I would be checking all connections and fuses first, particularly the large ones next to the batteries.

[Kevin1946]

Yes on the volt meter is showing 14+ .Van battery is charged ok.but when I switch it over from Aux to van there is no power in the habitation area & mo reading on the dial .

The electric charger is charging ok

[tonyg3nwl]

Firstly, get access to habitation battery with a test meter, direct on the battery terminals.

Then check the big fuse next to the habitation battery, and the terminals on the battery.

Use a voltmeter to test for voltage from hab battery positive to engine battery negative, or chassis earth, just in case the hab battery earth strap has corroded (or engine battery earth)

 

If you have access to individual cells, check if electrolyte is above the top of plates..might not be possible if battery is sealed type.

 

These tests should determine where to go next, or confirm battery failure.

 

Hope it might help.

 

Tonyg3nwl

[Kevin1946]

I checked all fuses in habitation area and all are ok DID As Derek suggested and found the fuse at the van battery burned and the fuse holder corroded so I fitted a new holder & fuse and now the habitation electrics work ok on aux and van settings BUT THE RED light is still on.I will put the van battery on charge as well and get the two fully charged and see if the light goes out

 

Kevin

PSthanks for the help

[blaven]

Please heed aandncaravans' advice re: tired/ unserviceable batteries being the prime cause of alternator failure. A new alternator is still going to be stressed by hanging on to old discharged batteries in the vain hope that, somehow, they will be rejuvenated. They don't even have to be old if they've been discharged beyond redemption.

My neighbour hadn't realised this, and his new battery lasted six months. It's now attached to my electric fence and rotated with other old batteries in my collection.

[Kevin1946]

At 7oc the two batteries are fully charged ( I used a separate 7.5 amp charger on the van battery) altinator chargin 14.2 v all electrics working BUT THE RED LIGHT still on.

The habitation battery is dated 10/2016 and van battery 09/2015 I know these dates don't mean a lot but they are not ancient,I bought the van in June 2017 and I only use it in Ireland as a day van, I did a couple of over nights with hook up.

[Derek Uzzell]

A 2004 Peugeot Boxer Manual says about the battery-charge warning light:

 

“... If it comes on while the engine is running, it may indicate

- faulty operation of the charging circuit.

- slack battery or starter terminals.

- a cut or slack alternator belt.

- an alternator failure.

Contact a PEUGEOT dealer.”

 

There are on-line discussions about the warning light remaining illuminated

 

http://tinyurl.com/ycercbgj

 

with various suggestions as to what might cause this.

 

The red charge-warning light relates to the Peugeot Boxer part of the motorhome and, as you’ve addressed the burnt fuse/corroded fuse-holder fault, charged up both batteries and confirmed that the alternator is putting out over 14 volts, you should be able to discount the vehicle’s ‘habitation’ electrics as far as the red charging-light is concerned.

 

To cause the red light to illuminate 12V power is being provided to the light via the ignition-switch and the light is being effectively earthed, presumably through the alternator. That the light remains lit suggests that the regulator itself is failing to switch off the light.

 

There are plenty of on-line diagrams/pictures relating to alternator wiring

 

http://tinyurl.com/y9zzjhhd

 

but I suggest you begin by checking the rear of the alternator for detached/loose wires and/or corroded connector-terminals.

 

If you cannot find anything obvious, you’ll need to involve an auto-electrician

[Kevin1946]

Thanks I will check all the wires but I am getting a good charge from the altinator exept the habitation battery is discharging while I drive,Is there any relays that might control this???

Kevin

[747]

Some vans also have a small fuse near where you found the big corroded one, it is only around 2 amp and is connected to the charging circuit. I had these 2 fuses on my last Burstner (of a similar age to your van). There were 2 lots of these fuses, one close to the Hab batteries and the other close to the van battery.

[Kevin1946]

Unfortunately there is only one,

The local fiat dealer checked the batteries & charging rate and said the van electrics are ok it is the Elldis set up is faulty .They suggested contacting Elddis.They would not touch it.

[Keithl]

Kevin,

 

IIRC Elddis use a strange way of wiring the habitation battery and fridge where they use one relay near the starter battery to control power back to the habitation battery and then another relay to connect the habitation battery to the fridge.

 

It sounds like the main relay near the starter battery has failed and so is not charging the habitation battery. The reason your habitation battery is then discharging is because the second relay IS still working, hence your fridge is discharging your habitation battery.

 

Search under the bonnet for, I believe, a small cover held in place with nuts near the centre at the base of the windscreen, it should reveal a relay and possibly fuses.

 

Best of luck,

Keith.

[Kevin1946]

Unfortunately there is only one,

The local fiat dealer checked the batteries & charging rate and said the van electrics are ok it is the Elldis set up is faulty .They suggested contacting Elddis.They would not touch it.

[Keithl]

Kevin/1946 - 2017-09-20 7:55 PM

 

Unfortunately there is only one,

The local fiat dealer checked the batteries & charging rate and said the van electrics are ok it is the Elddis set up is faulty .They suggested contacting Elddis. They would not touch it.

 

Kevin,

 

The relay/fuse connection unit I am referring to will be an add on part and not Fiat original. Try looking along the back edge of the bonnet aperture for a small black box. Unfortunately (or fortunately for me) I do not have a Fiat so cannot post a picture of what you should be looking for, perhaps someone else could please?

 

Keith.

 

Edit. From a very old discussion it is described as "a black plastic cover secured by two 6 mm nuts behind a pipe".

[Derek Uzzell]

Keithl - 2017-09-20 7:13 PM

 

...It sounds like the main relay near the starter battery has failed and so is not charging the habitation battery. The reason your habitation battery is then discharging is because the second relay IS still working, hence your fridge is discharging your habitation battery...

 

 

That sounds reasonable - though even if the fridge were being powered by the habitation battery and that battery were not receiving charge, would this result in an (apparently) fully-charged habitation battery becoming totally discharged after just a few hours of driving?

 

And (as I understand it) the red battery-charginging light is still staying illuminated.

 

I would have thought that the red battery-charging light issue could be considered a Fiat ‘problem’, but I can fully understand a Fiat agent choosing not to get involved with a motorhome’s habitation electrical system.

[Kevin1946]

Thanks to all of you for all your help,unfortunately in Ireland we don't have any proper Elddis Motorhome agent and as my van is old it does make it harder exept FOR THE KNOWLEDGE AND HELP HERE I would be lost.

Thanks again.

Kevin

P.S I did contact a couple of auto electricians, 2 wouldn't touch it & no 3 said it could take from 1 hour to whatever,his minimum charge 100€ to start & 60€ per hour + vat and couldn't guarantee he could fix it.

[aandncaravan]

Keith is right, we have seen the scenario he describes a couple of times, but not with the 'Alternator charge fault' lit at the same time.

 

Yesterday we looked at Mr Knight's Tag axle Autotrail with a seemingly faulty Sargent EC325 to find the Alternator output was not just below 13v, but fluctuated down to 12v, suggesting poor regulation.

That vehicle was 'discharging' the habitation batteries while driving, because the Alternator output was enough to trigger the D+ circuits, but not enough to supply any real output. This problem followed a long period of the vehicle 'supporting' two poor batteries.

 

 

On Monday we saw Nick Win....'s Burstner which also 'discharged' the batteries while driving. Again the Alternator output was low, but steady suggesting poor Earths or Alternator to engine block contact.

Again output was high enough to trigger the Schaudt Elektroblock to switch to 12v Fridge, etc yet didn't put out more than 2 amps.

The Alternator was only a 110amp version, so Nick (a mechanic) was going to fit a 180a Bosch version and new earth straps and report back.

 

 

In both cases the 'Alternator Charge Fault' Red light was not lit but the fact the Red light is illuminated in Kevins case indicates a clear Alternator output issue so is the key, in our opinion.

 

We think the cause of the Red light illumination should be investigated before anything else, it is a strong warning the Alternator and wiring is not happy.

 

It is possible the Motorhome habitation electrics are overloading/shorting the Alternator D+ circuit, but the investigation should start at the Alternator by an Auto sparky, checking both Voltage AND Current are perfect, and he will then be able to isolate the D+ feed to the system (BCA?) to see if that is having an impact.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kevin1946]

Thanks for all that information,as I intend keeping this van for a couple of years and reading all you have said & not knowing how old the altinator is I have booked it in for Tuesday to have a new altinator,regulator & earth straps fitted this will cost 240€ Which is not a bad price.They will check the rest of the electrics.I will buy 2 batteries if they think they are needed,I have read on this site that the Varta are a good brand .

Thanks Kevin

[Derek Uzzell]

As long as your motorhome starts well and the starter-battery does not lose charge rapidly when the vehicle is standing idle, I can’t see any persuasive reason to replace the starter-battery at the moment. (If that battery’s electrolyte can be topped up, I assume you have checked that the electrolyte-level is correct.)

 

I note from a previous posting that your Elddis’s leisure-battery was a Platinum SD1110L and that you were attempting to confirm how old it was - did you manage to do this?

 

As the leisure-battery has now been totally discharged, it may have become damaged and require replacement (and, even if it does not appear to be damaged, if it’s getting on in years it might be wise to replace it as a precationary measure).

 

Varta’s LFD90 battery is regularly recommended on this forum as a excellent choice for a motorhome leisure-battery. It apparently has similar length and height dimensions to a Platinum 6110L, but its height is lower (190mm rather than the Platinum’s 230mm). So a LFD90 ought to fit OK in your Elddis without any modifications being required.

 

It’s stating the obvious perhaps, but even if the alternator/regulator/earth-strap work cures the red charge-warning light issue, there may still be a problem with the motorhome’s habitation electrics. Given your comment about lack of motorhome-related technical expertise where you live, I’m not sure how this possibility might be addressed. I suppose the best you can do is check VERY carefully after the work-on-Tuesday has been carried out that EVERYTHING now functions properly.

[Kevin1946]

Thanks,I will let you know what happens on Tuesday after the work is finished.I did get the age of the battery it is 9/10 2016 & I purchased the van in 6/2017 so it is not old but has been completely drained which could have damaged it.I have 2 X 100 watt new solar panels (photonic universe) on the van which have not been connected until I get this charging fixed.we don't intend doing any wild camping with the van and want it for touring Ireland & UK.

Kevin

[Alanb]

I have been using my MH for its intended purpose in the Scottish Highlands for the last two weeks, and in some places internet coverage was limited, hence my late contribution.

 

The combination of symptoms outlined by Kevin have intrigued me, and I hope that I have absorbed the pertinant facts.

 

May I offer a possible solution, by suggesting that symptoms could be explained by an open circuit fault in the vehicle or habitation D+ wiring, and the burnt/corroded fuse located by Kevin.

 

If the alternator warning lamp and split charge relay became detached from the alternator D+ terminal,, the alternator may struggle to "build up" (start generating), but it is possible that it could do so, depending on the amount of residual magnetism in the rotor.

 

I have verified experimentally that it is possible to operate a 65 ohm (measured) automotive relay via a 2.2W 12V bulb. The lamp glows quite noticeably, and the relay operates with a decisive click.

 

As all else now seems to be working, it is possible that the warning light is glowing because it is supplying the split charge relay?

 

However if Kevin's Elldis is fitted with a CBE PC200 electrical system which does not make a connection to D+, my suggestion fails to explain the situation.

 

By way of explanation, normal operation of a vehicle alternator circuit of the stated age, is for the warning lamp current from the vehicle battery to provide the initial supply to the alternator rotor (field), this allows the alternator to start generating. When this occurs the voltage at the D+ terminal oposes the battery voltage and the warning lamp is extinguished, and the split charge relay will be energised from the D+ terminal.

 

Alan

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Kevin’s motorhome is a 2004 Autoquest 400RL.

 

This Elddis handbook should relate to it and contains an “Autoquest” wiring diagram.

 

http://www.elddis.co.uk/documents/Handbooks/2004/motorhome-handbook.pdf

 

I don’t know who would have made the electrical system’s components, but (based on the handbook) it would not have been CBE.

[Alanb]

Derek, thank you for the link. I had previously located the manual, but as I do not share your breadth of knowledge on motorhome models, I lacked the definative "Autoquest". Kevin only mentioned Elddis 400rl in his original post.

 

Even when printed out at A4 size, the diagram is a challenge to read. In view of the unnecessary wire crossings, abruptly terminating wires lacking any notation and other shortcomings I could not recommend it as a good example.

 

There are three relay bases shown on the diagram to the left of the fuses. The lower one is the water pump relay, and seems to have a different terminal layout to the others. This is quite possible as it could be smaller.

 

The middle relay is the split charge relay, and also serves to disconnect the habitation supplies when the engine is running. It is operated by the 12V power supply to the fridge.

 

The upper relay is for the changeover between vehicle and auxiliary batteries.

 

The derivation of the red power lead for the fridge is not shown. I must assume that it is routed via a relay located under the bonnet, or elsewhere, and controlled via a D+ connection.

 

If the warning light on Kevin's vehicle continues to illuminate subsequent to the alternator replacement, I suggest that the assumed D+ connection point to the vehicle wiring should be examined.

 

Alan

[Kevin1946]

Thanks Alan,the van went in yesterday,the alternator is faulty when the engine revs over 1500,so a new one is on the way.I will get the timing kit done while they are replacing the alternator as I don't know when it was done,I hope the batteries are not damaged

Kevin