Guest pelmetman Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 Bulletguy - 2017-11-04 11:23 PM Violet1956 - 2017-11-04 6:13 PM Bulletguy - 2017-11-04 5:55 PM Our "Kneegate" 'scandal' sort of pales by comparison to the Weinstein revelations which have now become 'open season' for all potential claimants of everything from smutty jokes to full on rape. Our witchhunt is like a budget based version of the American one. >snipped as post in full can be read< Hartley-Brewer herself called Fallon's resignation "insane, absurd and ridiculous". Trial by media is not the way forward otherwise we may just as well close down all the courts, abandon the legal system, and hand it over to the vigilante social justice keyboard warriors on Twitter and Mumsnet rad-fems. I agree Bullet that trial by media is not the best way forward but at the same time one has to wonder why some people who claim to have been victims have come to use the media to tell their story rather than any other mechanism. I would venture that for some it was because there was no other mechanism available to them that would reliably achieve anything. Taking MPs in the UK as one example. Victims of sexual harassment in Westminster or on its party-political fringes have perhaps long since understood that their right to be protected from this sort of behaviour would be sacrificed on the altar of what is politically expedient rather that what was morally right and just. Another example (more fitting in light of the Weinstein scandal)- What were Hollywood actors and actresses likely predict to be the studio’s response to any complaint? Might that not be that they would respond in a way that was least likely to adversely affect revenues? Most of the actresses in the Weinstein case are now multi millionaires with an established career. From the cases i've read none filed reports with the police at the time of the alleged events so the serious issue here is IF any of these allegations make it into a courtroom to be tested before a jury....how many younger women after them suffered due to their (the older actresses) 'wall of silence'? To confound this even more we've now got allegations against Kevin Spacey by Anthony Rapp of sexually abusing him.....at the time Spacey was 26 and Rapp a 14 year old child actor. The event apparently occurred at an 'after show party' at night. So immediately i'm wondering wtf is a 14 year old child doing partying and drinking anyway?? Where was his mother?? And if she could not be there, where was his chaperone which all child actors are provided with?? Rapp who is gay should never have been allowed to get into that environment in the first place. Another ex-child actor, Corey Feldman has said he will "name names" of Hollywoods sex abusers.........but not until he's made his movie he's currently after funds for. What kind of message is that sending out? Apparently Spacey's sexual orientation was an 'open secret' for years among the Hollywood hierarchy but he's only just openly announced he's gay to coincide with the revelations which has sent the LGBT folk into a tizzy because of obvious links of gay men with underage adolescent boys (Hebephilia). Regards gay actors it's worth remembering the huge efforts Hollywood went to protecting Rock Hudson from any possibility of public suspicion by ensuring every red carpet ceremony he attended, there was a woman on his arm. They'd invested millions of $ in Hudson and the last thing they wanted was the public ditching him......girls adored him! He was a Hollywood 'heart throb' for many teen girls. Over "Kneegate" i just think we've gone a bit crazy now. Hartley-Brewer dealt with it at the time and that should have been the end of it. But touching the knee of the opposite sex? Depends if it is only the knee and not further up. If the knee (which is how it was described) then i honestly don't understand the fuss, be it male to female or female to male. It's a knee fgs......not a boob or crotch!! Whilst i don't share Julia Hartley-Brewers politics i certainly think she has it right saying "Parliament was in the midst of a “media witchhunt” and that it risked creating a "sterile world, where men and women never speak or touch in the workplace". This is the flip side to turning the slightest thing into "sexual harassment" or "unwanted attention" (i'm not talking Weinstein here). And as you can see from my previous post re, the comment from a female poster, "i'd smack him in the chops and tell him to whistle dixie........unless he's hot that is", there are double standards being applied and it's often coming from women. If we aren't careful we are descending into a gender war. This video clip is about domestic abuse but it's an interesting watch as it illustrates how female to male violence is perceived very differently to male on female. Watch the facial reactions of the bystanders very carefully...you might need view it a couple of time to see what i mean. Violet1956 - 2017-11-04 9:11 PM pelmetman - 2017-11-04 8:16 PM Violet1956 - 2017-11-04 8:06 PM pelmetman - 2017-11-04 6:48 PM Is it me?........but these revelations hardly compare with the rape of 1000's of children *-) ........ The only common denominator I can see is that those who should've spoke out didn't :-| ....... You're right Dave. In the scheme of things these scandals pale into significance when it comes to the abuse of children. However that doesn't mean it is of no importance or that it does not need to be addressed. Yes dear *-)........ lets focus on the minutia whilst we ignore the bleedin obvious :-| ...... If you think these issues we discuss in this thread are trivial then I question why you contribute to the discussion at all Dave. Have the good grace at least to acknowledge that I have not suggested for a moment that they are more important than child exploitation and abuse. . I honestly don't know why you bother responding to either of this pair who are just trolling and deflecting with their usual garbage, unable to engage in mature adult discussion. Just ignore them and they'll slunk off and find somewhere to play with each other. And whilst I understand that the epithet “dear” was intended to provoke and belittle me and/or denigrate the views I express, I am confident that it will be seen by others for what it is i.e. a rather cheap misogynistic jibe. Rather ironic in view of the issues under this discussion. ;-) Precisely that. So say's the defender of the indefensible *-) ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 Bulletguy - 2017-11-04 11:23 PM Violet1956 - 2017-11-04 6:13 PM Bulletguy - 2017-11-04 5:55 PM Our "Kneegate" 'scandal' sort of pales by comparison to the Weinstein revelations which have now become 'open season' for all potential claimants of everything from smutty jokes to full on rape. Our witchhunt is like a budget based version of the American one. >snipped as post in full can be read< Hartley-Brewer herself called Fallon's resignation "insane, absurd and ridiculous". Trial by media is not the way forward otherwise we may just as well close down all the courts, abandon the legal system, and hand it over to the vigilante social justice keyboard warriors on Twitter and Mumsnet rad-fems. I agree Bullet that trial by media is not the best way forward but at the same time one has to wonder why some people who claim to have been victims have come to use the media to tell their story rather than any other mechanism. I would venture that for some it was because there was no other mechanism available to them that would reliably achieve anything. Taking MPs in the UK as one example. Victims of sexual harassment in Westminster or on its party-political fringes have perhaps long since understood that their right to be protected from this sort of behaviour would be sacrificed on the altar of what is politically expedient rather that what was morally right and just. Another example (more fitting in light of the Weinstein scandal)- What were Hollywood actors and actresses likely predict to be the studio’s response to any complaint? Might that not be that they would respond in a way that was least likely to adversely affect revenues? Most of the actresses in the Weinstein case are now multi millionaires with an established career. From the cases i've read none filed reports with the police at the time of the alleged events so the serious issue here is IF any of these allegations make it into a courtroom to be tested before a jury....how many younger women after them suffered due to their (the older actresses) 'wall of silence'? To confound this even more we've now got allegations against Kevin Spacey by Anthony Rapp of sexually abusing him.....at the time Spacey was 26 and Rapp a 14 year old child actor. The event apparently occurred at an 'after show party' at night. So immediately i'm wondering wtf is a 14 year old child doing partying and drinking anyway?? Where was his mother?? And if she could not be there, where was his chaperone which all child actors are provided with?? Rapp who is gay should never have been allowed to get into that environment in the first place. Another ex-child actor, Corey Feldman has said he will "name names" of Hollywoods sex abusers.........but not until he's made his movie he's currently after funds for. What kind of message is that sending out? Apparently Spacey's sexual orientation was an 'open secret' for years among the Hollywood hierarchy but he's only just openly announced he's gay to coincide with the revelations which has sent the LGBT folk into a tizzy because of obvious links of gay men with underage adolescent boys (Hebephilia). Regards gay actors it's worth remembering the huge efforts Hollywood went to protecting Rock Hudson from any possibility of public suspicion by ensuring every red carpet ceremony he attended, there was a woman on his arm. They'd invested millions of $ in Hudson and the last thing they wanted was the public ditching him......girls adored him! He was a Hollywood 'heart throb' for many teen girls. Over "Kneegate" i just think we've gone a bit crazy now. Hartley-Brewer dealt with it at the time and that should have been the end of it. But touching the knee of the opposite sex? Depends if it is only the knee and not further up. If the knee (which is how it was described) then i honestly don't understand the fuss, be it male to female or female to male. It's a knee fgs......not a boob or crotch!! Whilst i don't share Julia Hartley-Brewers politics i certainly think she has it right saying "Parliament was in the midst of a “media witchhunt” and that it risked creating a "sterile world, where men and women never speak or touch in the workplace". This is the flip side to turning the slightest thing into "sexual harassment" or "unwanted attention" (i'm not talking Weinstein here). And as you can see from my previous post re, the comment from a female poster, "i'd smack him in the chops and tell him to whistle dixie........unless he's hot that is", there are double standards being applied and it's often coming from women. If we aren't careful we are descending into a gender war. This video clip is about domestic abuse but it's an interesting watch as it illustrates how female to male violence is perceived very differently to male on female. Watch the facial reactions of the bystanders very carefully...you might need view it a couple of time to see what i mean. I agree Bullet that in general touching someone’s knee sitting next to you in a restaurant is not what this should be about. You also make a valid point, if I get your drift correctly, that both men and women are capable of the sexual harassment or assault of another. I wouldn’t be surprised if that instances where men have been subjected to it are under-reported given the societal attitudes that are all too apparent in the video you posted. Drawing the line between flirting or “testing the water” with the object of your desire and harassment/assault may in some instances be problematic but by applying the legal test on what amounts to harassment that I mentioned earlier should make it possible in most cases to draw the distinction. The context in which any behaviour occurs will have a big part to play in drawing that distinction. You’re also right in that I should try harder to ignore the irrelevant and banal asides from the usual quarters. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletguy Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 Violet1956 - 2017-11-05 12:31 PM Bulletguy - 2017-11-04 11:23 PM Violet1956 - 2017-11-04 6:13 PM Bulletguy - 2017-11-04 5:55 PM Our "Kneegate" 'scandal' sort of pales by comparison to the Weinstein revelations which have now become 'open season' for all potential claimants of everything from smutty jokes to full on rape. Our witchhunt is like a budget based version of the American one. >snipped as post in full can be read< Hartley-Brewer herself called Fallon's resignation "insane, absurd and ridiculous". Trial by media is not the way forward otherwise we may just as well close down all the courts, abandon the legal system, and hand it over to the vigilante social justice keyboard warriors on Twitter and Mumsnet rad-fems. I agree Bullet that trial by media is not the best way forward but at the same time one has to wonder why some people who claim to have been victims have come to use the media to tell their story rather than any other mechanism. I would venture that for some it was because there was no other mechanism available to them that would reliably achieve anything. Taking MPs in the UK as one example. Victims of sexual harassment in Westminster or on its party-political fringes have perhaps long since understood that their right to be protected from this sort of behaviour would be sacrificed on the altar of what is politically expedient rather that what was morally right and just. Another example (more fitting in light of the Weinstein scandal)- What were Hollywood actors and actresses likely predict to be the studio’s response to any complaint? Might that not be that they would respond in a way that was least likely to adversely affect revenues? Most of the actresses in the Weinstein case are now multi millionaires with an established career. From the cases i've read none filed reports with the police at the time of the alleged events so the serious issue here is IF any of these allegations make it into a courtroom to be tested before a jury....how many younger women after them suffered due to their (the older actresses) 'wall of silence'? To confound this even more we've now got allegations against Kevin Spacey by Anthony Rapp of sexually abusing him.....at the time Spacey was 26 and Rapp a 14 year old child actor. The event apparently occurred at an 'after show party' at night. So immediately i'm wondering wtf is a 14 year old child doing partying and drinking anyway?? Where was his mother?? And if she could not be there, where was his chaperone which all child actors are provided with?? Rapp who is gay should never have been allowed to get into that environment in the first place. Another ex-child actor, Corey Feldman has said he will "name names" of Hollywoods sex abusers.........but not until he's made his movie he's currently after funds for. What kind of message is that sending out? Apparently Spacey's sexual orientation was an 'open secret' for years among the Hollywood hierarchy but he's only just openly announced he's gay to coincide with the revelations which has sent the LGBT folk into a tizzy because of obvious links of gay men with underage adolescent boys (Hebephilia). Regards gay actors it's worth remembering the huge efforts Hollywood went to protecting Rock Hudson from any possibility of public suspicion by ensuring every red carpet ceremony he attended, there was a woman on his arm. They'd invested millions of $ in Hudson and the last thing they wanted was the public ditching him......girls adored him! He was a Hollywood 'heart throb' for many teen girls. Over "Kneegate" i just think we've gone a bit crazy now. Hartley-Brewer dealt with it at the time and that should have been the end of it. But touching the knee of the opposite sex? Depends if it is only the knee and not further up. If the knee (which is how it was described) then i honestly don't understand the fuss, be it male to female or female to male. It's a knee fgs......not a boob or crotch!! Whilst i don't share Julia Hartley-Brewers politics i certainly think she has it right saying "Parliament was in the midst of a “media witchhunt” and that it risked creating a "sterile world, where men and women never speak or touch in the workplace". This is the flip side to turning the slightest thing into "sexual harassment" or "unwanted attention" (i'm not talking Weinstein here). And as you can see from my previous post re, the comment from a female poster, "i'd smack him in the chops and tell him to whistle dixie........unless he's hot that is", there are double standards being applied and it's often coming from women. If we aren't careful we are descending into a gender war. This video clip is about domestic abuse but it's an interesting watch as it illustrates how female to male violence is perceived very differently to male on female. Watch the facial reactions of the bystanders very carefully...you might need view it a couple of time to see what i mean. I agree Bullet that in general touching someone’s knee sitting next to you in a restaurant is not what this should be about. You also make a valid point, if I get your drift correctly, that both men and women are capable of the sexual harassment or assault of another. I wouldn’t be surprised if that instances where men have been subjected to it are under-reported given the societal attitudes that are all too apparent in the video you posted. Drawing the line between flirting or “testing the water” with the object of your desire and harassment/assault may in some instances be problematic but by applying the legal test on what amounts to harassment that I mentioned earlier should make it possible in most cases to draw the distinction. The context in which any behaviour occurs will have a big part to play in drawing that distinction. You’re also right in that I should try harder to ignore the irrelevant and banal asides from the usual quarters. ;-) Regards abuse,violence etc, particularly domestic, articles by Erin Pizzey make a chilling read. Best remembered as the woman who pioneered shelters for women victims of domestic abuse and/or violence, she had her eyes opened when speaking with women in her Aid shelters, realised abuse wasn't a 'one way street'. Much was perpetrated by women but male victims rarely speak up. So Pizzey did........and promptly got torn to shreds by third wave feminists (remember some of those are even men believe it or not!). She received a deluge of hate mail, death threats, bomb threats and harassment. Eventually her entire mail was being processed by the Bomb Squad before she received it. She was hounded out of UK and went to live in South America running a refuge there dealing with sex abusers and paedophiles, but the campaign of hatred followed her and she relocated to Cayman islands. She only returned back to UK in the 90's. https://honest-ribbon.org/domestic-violence-law/refuting-40-years-of-lies-about-domestic-violence/ https://www.standard.co.uk/news/erin-pizzey-champion-of-womens-rights-says-radical-feminist-plans-to-let-victims-of-domestic-abuse-6918013.html Sexual harassment/assault, 'touching', and flirting should (to most adults) have pretty distinct differences but the problem is what one sees as banter/flirting, another will view as full on 'sexual assault'. Once we start elevating banter/flirting into the realms of 'sexual', in my opinion it diminishes the seriousness of the latter. Groping a womans boobs or grabbing a mans crotch is entirely different to a tap on the bum. I'm uneasy with much of what's going on at the moment with this sudden spate of allegations coming out which has turned into a trial by media. I'm sure some will be genuine (particularly re.Weinstein).......but what about those that are embellishing their stories for impact, or worse still, making totally false allegations which can completely destroy a persons life and in some cases have even led to them taking their own life. You might remember a case involving Mark Pearson, a man going about his daily commute on the London underground who got snared up in an false allegation of sexual assault. The woman who instigated the allegation was an actress (she has anonymity in UK media but i found her name on a US website....i'd never heard of her). The nasty part in this case was the CPS actually tampered with cctv footage in an attempt to secure a conviction. This was discovered by a forensic computer analyst brought in by Mr Pearsons legal team. They even told the Prosecution their case was seriously flawed due to the tampering, yet the CPS were determined to take it to court. Chilling stuff.....but that's just one example. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/man-falsely-accused-of-sexually-assault-on-actress-wants-apology-from-cps-over-bemusing-case-a6877036.html Mr Pearson also found a notable supporter........Erin Pizzey. Both appeared on the "This Morning" show; He also gave a talk here for Justice for Men & Boys. 40 minutes long but well worth listening to. His experience should serve as a chilling reminder of what happens to somebody suddenly faced with a false allegation of a serious sex offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet1956 Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 Bulletguy - 2017-11-05 4:56 PM Violet1956 - 2017-11-05 12:31 PM Bulletguy - 2017-11-04 11:23 PM Violet1956 - 2017-11-04 6:13 PM Bulletguy - 2017-11-04 5:55 PM Our "Kneegate" 'scandal' sort of pales by comparison to the Weinstein revelations which have now become 'open season' for all potential claimants of everything from smutty jokes to full on rape. Our witchhunt is like a budget based version of the American one. >snipped as post in full can be read< Hartley-Brewer herself called Fallon's resignation "insane, absurd and ridiculous". Trial by media is not the way forward otherwise we may just as well close down all the courts, abandon the legal system, and hand it over to the vigilante social justice keyboard warriors on Twitter and Mumsnet rad-fems. I agree Bullet that trial by media is not the best way forward but at the same time one has to wonder why some people who claim to have been victims have come to use the media to tell their story rather than any other mechanism. I would venture that for some it was because there was no other mechanism available to them that would reliably achieve anything. Taking MPs in the UK as one example. Victims of sexual harassment in Westminster or on its party-political fringes have perhaps long since understood that their right to be protected from this sort of behaviour would be sacrificed on the altar of what is politically expedient rather that what was morally right and just. Another example (more fitting in light of the Weinstein scandal)- What were Hollywood actors and actresses likely predict to be the studio’s response to any complaint? Might that not be that they would respond in a way that was least likely to adversely affect revenues? Most of the actresses in the Weinstein case are now multi millionaires with an established career. From the cases i've read none filed reports with the police at the time of the alleged events so the serious issue here is IF any of these allegations make it into a courtroom to be tested before a jury....how many younger women after them suffered due to their (the older actresses) 'wall of silence'? To confound this even more we've now got allegations against Kevin Spacey by Anthony Rapp of sexually abusing him.....at the time Spacey was 26 and Rapp a 14 year old child actor. The event apparently occurred at an 'after show party' at night. So immediately i'm wondering wtf is a 14 year old child doing partying and drinking anyway?? Where was his mother?? And if she could not be there, where was his chaperone which all child actors are provided with?? Rapp who is gay should never have been allowed to get into that environment in the first place. Another ex-child actor, Corey Feldman has said he will "name names" of Hollywoods sex abusers.........but not until he's made his movie he's currently after funds for. What kind of message is that sending out? Apparently Spacey's sexual orientation was an 'open secret' for years among the Hollywood hierarchy but he's only just openly announced he's gay to coincide with the revelations which has sent the LGBT folk into a tizzy because of obvious links of gay men with underage adolescent boys (Hebephilia). Regards gay actors it's worth remembering the huge efforts Hollywood went to protecting Rock Hudson from any possibility of public suspicion by ensuring every red carpet ceremony he attended, there was a woman on his arm. They'd invested millions of $ in Hudson and the last thing they wanted was the public ditching him......girls adored him! He was a Hollywood 'heart throb' for many teen girls. Over "Kneegate" i just think we've gone a bit crazy now. Hartley-Brewer dealt with it at the time and that should have been the end of it. But touching the knee of the opposite sex? Depends if it is only the knee and not further up. If the knee (which is how it was described) then i honestly don't understand the fuss, be it male to female or female to male. It's a knee fgs......not a boob or crotch!! Whilst i don't share Julia Hartley-Brewers politics i certainly think she has it right saying "Parliament was in the midst of a “media witchhunt” and that it risked creating a "sterile world, where men and women never speak or touch in the workplace". This is the flip side to turning the slightest thing into "sexual harassment" or "unwanted attention" (i'm not talking Weinstein here). And as you can see from my previous post re, the comment from a female poster, "i'd smack him in the chops and tell him to whistle dixie........unless he's hot that is", there are double standards being applied and it's often coming from women. If we aren't careful we are descending into a gender war. This video clip is about domestic abuse but it's an interesting watch as it illustrates how female to male violence is perceived very differently to male on female. Watch the facial reactions of the bystanders very carefully...you might need view it a couple of time to see what i mean. I agree Bullet that in general touching someone’s knee sitting next to you in a restaurant is not what this should be about. You also make a valid point, if I get your drift correctly, that both men and women are capable of the sexual harassment or assault of another. I wouldn’t be surprised if that instances where men have been subjected to it are under-reported given the societal attitudes that are all too apparent in the video you posted. Drawing the line between flirting or “testing the water” with the object of your desire and harassment/assault may in some instances be problematic but by applying the legal test on what amounts to harassment that I mentioned earlier should make it possible in most cases to draw the distinction. The context in which any behaviour occurs will have a big part to play in drawing that distinction. You’re also right in that I should try harder to ignore the irrelevant and banal asides from the usual quarters. ;-) Regards abuse,violence etc, particularly domestic, articles by Erin Pizzey make a chilling read. Best remembered as the woman who pioneered shelters for women victims of domestic abuse and/or violence, she had her eyes opened when speaking with women in her Aid shelters, realised abuse wasn't a 'one way street'. Much was perpetrated by women but male victims rarely speak up. So Pizzey did........and promptly got torn to shreds by third wave feminists (remember some of those are even men believe it or not!). She received a deluge of hate mail, death threats, bomb threats and harassment. Eventually her entire mail was being processed by the Bomb Squad before she received it. She was hounded out of UK and went to live in South America running a refuge there dealing with sex abusers and paedophiles, but the campaign of hatred followed her and she relocated to Cayman islands. She only returned back to UK in the 90's. https://honest-ribbon.org/domestic-violence-law/refuting-40-years-of-lies-about-domestic-violence/ https://www.standard.co.uk/news/erin-pizzey-champion-of-womens-rights-says-radical-feminist-plans-to-let-victims-of-domestic-abuse-6918013.html Sexual harassment/assault, 'touching', and flirting should (to most adults) have pretty distinct differences but the problem is what one sees as banter/flirting, another will view as full on 'sexual assault'. Once we start elevating banter/flirting into the realms of 'sexual', in my opinion it diminishes the seriousness of the latter. Groping a womans boobs or grabbing a mans crotch is entirely different to a tap on the bum. I'm uneasy with much of what's going on at the moment with this sudden spate of allegations coming out which has turned into a trial by media. I'm sure some will be genuine (particularly re.Weinstein).......but what about those that are embellishing their stories for impact, or worse still, making totally false allegations which can completely destroy a persons life and in some cases have even led to them taking their own life. You might remember a case involving Mark Pearson, a man going about his daily commute on the London underground who got snared up in an false allegation of sexual assault. The woman who instigated the allegation was an actress (she has anonymity in UK media but i found her name on a US website....i'd never heard of her). The nasty part in this case was the CPS actually tampered with cctv footage in an attempt to secure a conviction. This was discovered by a forensic computer analyst brought in by Mr Pearsons legal team. They even told the Prosecution their case was seriously flawed due to the tampering, yet the CPS were determined to take it to court. Chilling stuff.....but that's just one example. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/man-falsely-accused-of-sexually-assault-on-actress-wants-apology-from-cps-over-bemusing-case-a6877036.html Mr Pearson also found a notable supporter........Erin Pizzey. Both appeared on the "This Morning" show; He also gave a talk here for Justice for Men & Boys. 40 minutes long but well worth listening to. His experience should serve as a chilling reminder of what happens to somebody suddenly faced with a false allegation of a serious sex offence. Interesting I had not heard of all the Erin Pizzey stuff. Will take a look the videos when I have a mo. 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John52 Posted November 6, 2017 Share Posted November 6, 2017 The Tories must be hoping for another sex scandal to bury news about their tax dodging. Wonder if Lord Ashcroft has come out of the toilet yet *-) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-41880024/paradise-papers-lord-ashcroft-hides-from-trust-question Remember when he and Cameron fell out spectacularly - Cameron denied Ashcroft that lovely promotion and from that we got the leak about Cameron "making love" to a pig's head in retaliation. ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted November 6, 2017 Author Share Posted November 6, 2017 Sorry, postred in the wrong thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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