Police Duty of Confidentiality

[Bulletguy]

nowtelse2do - 2017-12-03 7:10 PM

 

All this has come about because a lady has accused Green of touching her knee a couple of months ago. Well I must admit that is something I can also be accused of doing.

 

Dave

"Fleetingly touched" i believe was the precise description. Ooo-----err.....shocking! What a pervert!!

 

Even more 'shocking' was Green sent a text message to the lady concerned, Tory activist Kate Maltby, which she describes as "suggestive". The text said, "Long time no see. But having admired you in a corset in my favourite tabloid I felt impelled to ask if you are free for a drink anytime?" She had posed in a corset for The Times :-S

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41827264

 

This is the photograph

[derek pringle]

hi,

This whole episode comes across to me as these police officers are doing what they are for personal reasons against Greene and if legal or not it could serve their purpose to mud-sling. How many votes I wonder would it have cost him in an election if he declared beforehand for instance that his hobby was watching porn channels, I am not saying it was his hobby but that is what mud slinging does. Whilst this issue was left at the time it should not be now and the reasons behind this very late declaration should be investigated and action if any required should be taken quickly.

cheers

derek

[Guest pelmetman]

nowtelse2do - 2017-12-03 7:10 PM

 

All this has come about because a lady has accused Green of touching her knee a couple of months ago. Well I must admit that is something I can also be accused of doing.

 

Dave

 

At least Antony's not the kinda chap to complain :D ........

 

 

[Brian Kirby]

Bulletguy - 2017-12-03 9:07 PM

 

nowtelse2do - 2017-12-03 7:10 PM

 

All this has come about because a lady has accused Green of touching her knee a couple of months ago. Well I must admit that is something I can also be accused of doing.

 

Dave

"Fleetingly touched" i believe was the precise description. Ooo-----err.....shocking! What a pervert!!

 

Even more 'shocking' was Green sent a text message to the lady concerned, Tory activist Kate Maltby, which she describes as "suggestive". The text said, "Long time no see. But having admired you in a corset in my favourite tabloid I felt impelled to ask if you are free for a drink anytime?" She had posed in a corset for The Times :-S

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41827264

 

This is the photograph

"Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of people" seems to me the most appropriate comment. Political tribalism (my party, right or wrong) has much to answer for, IMO.

[RogerC]

According to today's media it is possible the two unscrupulous ex coppers could be in line for criminal charges.  Met Commissioner says she will be looking to see if there are grounds for action.  Possibility is charges under the Data Protection Act.  Now wouldn't that be ironic?  Two slimy ex coppers spill the beans on 'legal' stuff they found on someone's computer and 'they' get nicked.....love it (Just hope it happens....hehe)

[Bulletguy]

RogerC - 2017-12-04 5:09 PM

 

According to today's media it is possible the two unscrupulous ex coppers could be in line for criminal charges.  Met Commissioner says she will be looking to see if there are grounds for action.  Possibility is charges under the Data Protection Act.  Now wouldn't that be ironic?  Two slimy ex coppers spill the beans on 'legal' stuff they found on someone's computer and 'they' get nicked.....love it (Just hope it happens....hehe)

The 'slime' isn't just on one side though Roger. A junior civil servant working in the HO then under Jacqui Smith, who told shadow Home Sec Davis he was a 'committed Tory' willing to leak sensitive documents at which point Davis should have red flagged the guy but instead recommended him to Green who "wanted as much information as possible to damage them” (Labour Gov) and to "get as much dirt on the Labour party, the Labour government as possible”.

 

Add to that an ambitious Miss Maltby who for reasons best known to herself had kept the 'corset text message' for 17 months and Bob Quicks long running feud with Green, and it was a simmering pot of trouble bound to boil over eventually. Personally i think the 'porn' is too convenient a deflection away from the core issue but UK being UK we will no doubt pay more attention and interest to that than the serious issues which will get buried.

 

The 'inappropriate behaviour' that needs addressing are the actions of senior ministers indulging dirty politics.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/how-kate-maltby-revealed-corset-text-from-damian-green-17-months-ago-a3705051.html

[RogerC]

Bulletguy - 2017-12-04 6:40 PM

RogerC - 2017-12-04 5:09 PMAccording to today's media it is possible the two unscrupulous ex coppers could be in line for criminal charges.  Met Commissioner says she will be looking to see if there are grounds for action.  Possibility is charges under the Data Protection Act.  Now wouldn't that be ironic?  Two slimy ex coppers spill the beans on 'legal' stuff they found on someone's computer and 'they' get nicked.....love it (Just hope it happens....hehe)

The 'slime' isn't just on one side though Roger. A junior civil servant working in the HO then under Jacqui Smith, who told shadow Home Sec Davis he was a 'committed Tory' willing to leak sensitive documents at which point Davis should have red flagged the guy but instead recommended him to Green who "wanted as much information as possible to damage them” (Labour Gov) and to "get as much dirt on the Labour party, the Labour government as possible”.Add to that an ambitious Miss Maltby who for reasons best known to herself had kept the 'corset text message' for 17 months and Bob Quicks long running feud with Green, and it was a simmering pot of trouble bound to boil over eventually. Personally i think the 'porn' is too convenient a deflection away from the core issue but UK being UK we will no doubt pay more attention and interest to that than the serious issues which will get buried.The 'inappropriate behaviour' that needs addressing are the actions of senior ministers indulging dirty politics.https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/how-kate-maltby-revealed-corset-text-from-damian-green-17-months-ago-a3705051.html

It is quite likely you are correct regarding underlying issues however until anything different is thrown into the public 'ring' for our delectation we can only debate on what is fed to us and surmise the rest.

I think one thing is for certain...(IMO) Bob Quick is a despicable, vindictive individual who has done a great disservice to the Police Force in terms of committing a gross breach of confidentiality (apparently as part of a petulant vendetta) exercising extremely poor judgement and bringing the force into disrepute.  He has shown his judgement and moral compass is not to be trusted and had it been known he should never have been allowed to wear the uniform he has brought shame on.  As I have said before I hope, whole heartedly, that the slimeball gets the book thrown at him...and his sidekick as well. 

[Bulletguy]

RogerC - 2017-12-04 10:10 PM

 

It is quite likely you are correct regarding underlying issues however until anything different is thrown into the public 'ring' for our delectation we can only debate on what is fed to us and surmise the rest.

 

I think one thing is for certain...(IMO) Bob Quick is a despicable, vindictive individual who has done a great disservice to the Police Force in terms of committing a gross breach of confidentiality (apparently as part of a petulant vendetta) exercising extremely poor judgement and bringing the force into disrepute. He has shown his judgement and moral compass is not to be trusted and had it been known he should never have been allowed to wear the uniform he has brought shame on. As I have said before I hope, whole heartedly, that the slimeball gets the book thrown at him...and his sidekick as well.

Talking of 'moral compass' none of this would ever have occurred had Davis exercised his and reported Galley to Jacqui Smith, the then Home Secretary. Instead his morals just flew out the window.

[Brian Kirby]

There is no moral "high ground" here. Labour called in the police because they were suffering politically embarrassing leaks. There was no risk to national security. Green, by all accounts, was so anxious to score a quick point against Labour that he "procured" the dirt he wanted by making vague offers to the silly Civil Servant concerned. The silly Civil Servant (who seems to have been a lifelong Conservative supporter) concerned was (correctly) sacked for his actions. The police officers concerned seem to have acted, at least in part, out of political motivation, and to have grossly exceeded their authority. There is little point, IMO, in picking on one or other of those concerned as the bigger rogue. The only one who has suffered so far is the silly sap of a Civil Servant, which seems to me mildly unjust as he was cynically used and discarded as a pawn in a pointless game.

 

This was the product of myopically tribal party politics, where people conflate national interest with party interest, and justify to themselves everything they do on the basis that wrong-footing "the other side" is in the national interest. It is tangible even on here, where individuals (I doubt that they know who they are! :-)) leap to the defence of "their side", however indefensible their actons, wailing that the "other side" will destroy the whole country.

 

One might think that, as reasonably mature individuals who have been around for half a century or more, they might have noticed that as governments come and go over the years life for most of us continues more or less uninterrupted, and that individual governments have very limited powers to impose change. A bit of influence, yes, but no real power.

 

The electorate remains broadly in the political centre, occasionally shifting a little to the left, or a little to the right, and tends to shun the political extremes. Collectively, people know when change is due; when one party has been too long in power, and vote for change. Long may it continue, with a little more modesty on all sides. We all need to remember that no-one, individual or party, has a monopoly on good ideas. Surely that must be abundantly clear to anyone with half a brain under present circumstances?

[RogerC]

Brian Kirby - 2017-12-05 11:52 AMThere is no moral "high ground" here. Labour called in the police because they were suffering politically embarrassing leaks. There was no risk to national security. Green, by all accounts, was so anxious to score a quick point against Labour that he "procured" the dirt he wanted by making vague offers to the silly Civil Servant concerned. The silly Civil Servant (who seems to have been a lifelong Conservative supporter) concerned was (correctly) sacked for his actions. The police officers concerned seem to have acted, at least in part, out of political motivation, and to have grossly exceeded their authority. There is little point, IMO, in picking on one or other of those concerned as the bigger rogue. The only one who has suffered so far is the silly sap of a Civil Servant, which seems to me mildly unjust as he was cynically used and discarded as a pawn in a pointless game.This was the product of myopically tribal party politics, where people conflate national interest with party interest, and justify to themselves everything they do on the basis that wrong-footing "the other side" is in the national interest. It is tangible even on here, where individuals (I doubt that they know who they are! :-)) leap to the defence of "their side", however indefensible their actons, wailing that the "other side" will destroy the whole country.One might think that, as reasonably mature individuals who have been around for half a century or more, they might have noticed that as governments come and go over the years life for most of us continues more or less uninterrupted, and that individual governments have very limited powers to impose change. A bit of influence, yes, but no real power.The electorate remains broadly in the political centre, occasionally shifting a little to the left, or a little to the right, and tends to shun the political extremes. Collectively, people know when change is due; when one party has been too long in power, and vote for change. Long may it continue, with a little more modesty on all sides. We all need to remember that no-one, individual or party, has a monopoly on good ideas. Surely that must be abundantly clear to anyone with half a brain under present circumstances?

I agree with most of, and the sentiment implied in, the opening paragraph.  However I do honestly believe the likes of Bob Quick have no place in public office, least of all as an Assistant Commissioner. (Hindsight is a wonderful thing)  As such he had access to all sorts of seriously confidential information and has now clearly demonstrated that he can not be trusted nor can his judgement be considered to be a process of moral or sound reflection on the likely outcome of his actions.  Then again maybe he is so blinded by his clear animosity towards Damian Green that he is not concerned about being seen as an untrustworthy scheming little oik who is prepared to disregard confidentiality rules and in doing so bring the force into disrepute?  I hope most sincerely he is stripped of his Police pension.  Having brought the force into disrepute I feel he has forfeited his right to be sustained by it financially.

As for the rest Brian.... I agree with your premise regarding the 'political roundabout'.  I believe I have said before that the real power lies with the mandarins/the senior 'civil servants'(oxymoron?) and us mere plebs only get to tinker at the edges in a display of 'democracy' every now and then.

As for 'leaping to the defence' and defending the indefensible through political leanings or loyalty.....or simply looking to inject some heat into a debate even on this forum.....long may it continue.  Life would be boring without it.

[StuartO]

Bob Quick is now saying that he didn'tpersonally release this information into the public domain at all, it was a journalist getting hold of it after he reported it to an official body.  He's also saying he had and has no axe to grind toward Damian Green.

 

So whether he, or anyone else, is culpable remains to be proved!

 

[StuartO]

Brian Kirby - 2017-12-06 2:52 AM.... as governments come and go over the years life for most of us continues more or less uninterrupted, and that individual governments have very limited powers to impose change. A bit of influence, yes, but no real power.

 

The electorate remains broadly in the political centre, occasionally shifting a little to the left, or a little to the right, and tends to shun the political extremes. Collectively, people know when change is due; when one party has been too long in power, and vote for change. Long may it continue, with a little more modesty on all sides. ...

But hasn't populism changed all that Brian, so that Trump is now POTUS and there is a credible risk of Jeremy Corbyn, hitherto seen as another unelectable Michael Foot, actually becoming Prime Minister, with John McDonald as his Chancellor?

 

[Brian Kirby]

It might, but it would still be democracy. If they make a big enough mess of it, as I suspect they might, they will get chucked out when people become fed up with the consequences. I don't really see them in the mould of populists such as Trump.

If one prefers right wing parties, one will be sceptical of left wing parties, and vice versa. It is how we've done politics for as long as I can remember. It is costly, destructive, time wasting, and inefficient. However, it seems to be the way we prefer it.

Others, who we invariably judge wrong - though they seem to prosper better than we do overall - do things differently, and IMO better. But I guess we will just doggedly stick with what we know. It's what we do, isn't it? :-)

[StuartO]

Brian Kirby - 2017-12-07 8:11 AMIt might, but it would still be democracy. If they make a big enough mess of it, as I suspect they might, they will get chucked out when people become fed up with the consequences. ...

 

Democraacy comes in various forms, some of which are more open to abuse than others.  For example robert Mugabe was elected democratically to start with, then he got a grip and wouldn't let go.

 

I think we need to specify the democracy we want to rely on; we need a safe Constitution, to prevent abuse.  Our Constitution has evolved over long enough to be fairly robust but I wouldn't be 100% sure it was robust enough to survive the internet age and the power which populism seems to have acquired.  Maybe we could survive the five year wait for another election here in UK but "democracy" doesn't of itself guarantee that.

 

[Brian Kirby]

Not sure any democratic system could, Stuart. The wider the democratic net is spread, the weaker it becomes as a decision making tool. What is popular, is not necessarily what is good. Yet, it is popularity that determines how many vote. That is why I have serious reservations about the idea of lowering the voting age to 16. In fact, I think it is already too low. It is one small step from populism (at least as I understand it) to clientalism, and one should surely look to Greece to see where that leads. Politicians cynically making impossible, unsustainable, promises in return for votes that gave them the power to fix the country to their own advantage. To (mis) quote Farage "they used to laugh: they're not laughing now!"

 

I guess it was because I was young and impressionable that I used to admire politicians as relative giants. I guess it's because I'm now older and sadder (and I hope wiser!), that I now see them as mediocre. As people whose confidence wildly exceeds their abilities. That popular phrase, when confronted with the bleedin' (but inconvenient) obvious: "I don't accept that" drives me mad. I don't care what they accept, what I want to know is what they're doing about it. Ah, anything other than that!

[StuartO]

Brian Kirby - 2017-12-07 10:19 AMNot sure any democratic system could, Stuart. The wider the democratic net is spread, the weaker it becomes as a decision making tool.......

 

Exactly!  Populism (among other threatenning prospects) can compromise democracy, so the form of democracy you rely on needs to be capable of resisting corruption.

 

In the case of populism the threat to democracy stems from the availability of a means by which charismatic leaders can get the gullible to follow them (in Trumps case it seems to be Twitter) and universal franchise allowing gullible people to have a vote!

 

So we must choose between blocking avenues of influence on elections, like Twitter, or introducing selective franchise which excludes gullible people!  Maybe an eligibility test as a precondition of registering to vote would do it.

 

[Violet1956]

So Damian Green's "toast" for making misleading statements to The Sunday Times. Seems to be a bit of a fudge on the Karen Maltby issue and no finding that he lied about that allegation. There are some rather weasel words in Green's resignation letter about that.

 

No news on the Scotland Yard inquiry into the conduct of Quick and Lewis. Seems to be taking rather a long time. Can't be that difficult to look at the evidence of what they did and when which is out there for all to see.

[StuartO]

The agreed commentary on Sky News this morning, from a discussion between a self-declared feminist and a right-of-centre bloke, was that the although the allegations against Damian Green were old and not of themselves very serious even if true, he was right to resign for having told porkies (or in his words "misled") in the course of his denials - but what a pity that a good public servant is being forced out in this way.

 

As far as the conduct of the police whistleblowers (as they will regard themselves) is concerned I expect we will eventually hear a disapproving criticism from the Met Commissioner, coupled with resolve to prevent this happening again, but no actual consequences for the retired policemen involved.

 

[Violet1956]

StuartO - 2017-12-21 11:29 AMThe agreed commentary on Sky News this morning, from a discussion between a self-declared feminist and a right-of-centre bloke, was that the although the allegations against Damian Green were old and not of themselves very serious even if true, he was right to resign for having told porkies (or in his words "misled") in the course of his denials - but what a pity that a good public servant is being forced out in this way.

 

As far as the conduct of the police whistleblowers (as they will regard themselves) is concerned I expect we will eventually hear a disapproving criticism from the Met Commissioner, coupled with resolve to prevent this happening again, but no actual consequences for the retired policemen involved.

I was struggling to see what the "lie" was but it appears it was a lie by omission. The Ministerial code appears to follow "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but" line. Not quite the out and out lie John Profumo uttered. Don't see Mr Green to be the kind of chap who's going to live his life in penance hereinafter as he did but who knows. I would think that there should now be moves to bind retired police officers to the code of conduct they had to abide by whilst serving but as you say in the absence of any current sanction they may face nothing of any substance.

[pepe63xnotuse]

StuartO - 2017-12-21 11:29 AM

 

The agreed commentary on Sky News this morning, from a discussion between a self-declared feminist and a right-of-centre bloke, was that the although the allegations against Damian Green were old and not of themselves very serious even if true, he was right to resign for having told porkies (or in his words "misled") in the course of his denials...

 

 

Yes, I suppose when someone has repeatedly, and I would assume strenuously, denied knowledge of something, only for it to come to light that they HAD known about it all along, doesn't leave them (or their boss) much wriggle room..

 

Re; The Kate Maltby element.

What "exactly" has/had he done?...all I keep hearing is of him making "unwanted advances"?...So by that, do we then assume that it these(if any) "advances" had been "wanted", everything would have been tickety-boo ?

[RogerC]

Violet1956 - 2017-12-21 10:41 AMSo Damian Green's "toast" for making misleading statements to The Sunday Times. Seems to be a bit of a fudge on the Karen Maltby issue and no finding that he lied about that allegation. There are some rather weasel words in Green's resignation letter about that. No news on the Scotland Yard inquiry into the conduct of Quick and Lewis. Seems to be taking rather a long time. Can't be that difficult to look at the evidence of what they did and when which is out there for all to see.

The whole thing appears to me to be a parcel of double speak and avoidance of issues.  The only thing I can see so far that resembles 'reality' is  two 'gobby' coppers stuck the knife in, Damian Green has gone and, as ever, the police have, to date, apparently done nothing with regard to the two who brought this whole thing about in the first place.

As for Kate Maltby.......the 'unwanted advances' pub thing and the 'basque/corset' photo issue that appears to be a gross over reaction to something that not that long ago, if it warranted taking further, was sorted with a quick slap across the face.  That usually did the trick.

[Violet1956]

Looks like the Met are investigating the two policeman for possible breach of data protection laws. I don't know anything about that aspect of the law or whether a "public interest" defence is available. Being interviewed under caution on the other side of the desk would be an interesting turn of events.

[Bulletguy]

 

Not sure where anyone got reignation from. Green was sacked.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/20/damian-green-resigns-as-first-secretary-of-state-after-porn-allegations

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42434802

 

pepe63 - 2017-12-21 12:24 PM

Re; The Kate Maltby element.

What "exactly" has/had he done?...all I keep hearing is of him making "unwanted advances"?...So by that, do we then assume that it these(if any) "advances" had been "wanted", everything would have been tickety-boo ?

He sent her a text message 17 months ago after she wrote an article for The Times about corsets, with a picture of her in one wearing a corset as outerwear over clothing.

 

“Having admired you in a corset in my favourite tabloid I feel impelled to ask if you are free for a drink any time?

 

He also touched her knee.

 

Maltby comes from a very wealthy family. Her father is a multi-millionaire banker who was Ann Widdecombes first and only 'love flame'.

 

Damian Greens wife is a barrister.

[RogerC]

Bulletguy - 2017-12-21 6:24 PMNot sure where anyone got reignation from. Green was sacked.https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/20/damian-green-resigns-as-first-secretary-of-state-after-porn-allegationshttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42434802

pepe63 - 2017-12-21 12:24 PMRe; The Kate Maltby element.What "exactly" has/had he done?...all I keep hearing is of him making "unwanted advances"?...So by that, do we then assume that it these(if any) "advances" had been "wanted", everything would have been tickety-boo ?

He sent her a text message 17 months ago after she wrote an article for The Times about corsets, with a picture of her in one wearing a corset as outerwear over clothing. “Having admired you in a corset in my favourite tabloid I feel impelled to ask if you are free for a drink any time?He also touched her knee.Maltby comes from a very wealthy family. Her father is a multi-millionaire banker who was Ann Widdecombes first and only 'love flame'.Damian Greens wife is a barrister.

What an utter cad.....should be locked up in the Tower.....

Seems to me if that is the extent of his 'inappropriate' behaviour then a very high percentage of males world wide should be worried about repercussions.

Some people really do need to get a life.......   

[starvin marvin]

Violet1956 - 2017-12-21 3:28 PM

 

Looks like the Met are investigating the two policeman for possible breach of data protection laws. I don't know anything about that aspect of the law or whether a "public interest" defence is available. Being interviewed under caution on the other side of the desk would be an interesting turn of events.

 

Excuse the awful pun, but aren’t these two coppers whistle blowers? Yes this is a public interest issue, a cabinet minister has lied and therefore should be exposed, and should be sacked, which he has been, job done. Simples.